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The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread

No statistically significant changes in the polls: Strategic Counsel (for CTV) has the Tories up and the Liberals down while Ekos and the others have either no change or the Tories down and the Liberals up, ever so slightly.

I don't think we will see useful polls until next Monday.

 
Yesterday, while watching TV, I was exposed to the latest Liberal attempt to turn Steven Harper into a greedy, corporation-promoting thief.

Some of you may be familiar with the add in question, which accuses the Harper govt. of putting millions (billions?) into the coffers of corporations, while robbing the poor folk.

To my mind it didn't really work.

Isn't the idea to ENCOURAGE AND ASSIST business in Canada? so that we can be competitive, create jobs and whatnot?

To me, the add came off like  an attempt at a Liberal scare tactic..

Just my 2 pennies...but I know how I'm voting.

Slim

 
Slim said:
Yesterday, while watching TV, I was exposed to the latest Liberal attempt to turn Steven Harper into a greedy, corporation-promoting thief.

Some of you may be familiar with the add in question, which accuses the Harper govt. of putting millions (billions?) into the coffers of corporations, while robbing the poor folk.

To my mind it didn't really work.

Isn't the idea to ENCOURAGE AND ASSIST business in Canada? so that we can be competitive, create jobs and whatnot?

To me, the add came off like  an attempt at a Liberal scare tactic..

Just my 2 pennies...but I know how I'm voting.

Slim

I believe that ad is produced by Taliban Jack and his gaggle..... Just giving the dysfunctional the credit where it's due.....
 
Rodahn said:
I believe that ad is produced by Taliban Jack and his gaggle..... Just giving the dysfunctional the credit where it's due.....

Yep, no doubt about it.

But the funny thing about the add is...that if you really listen to it, it's not a slight against the Conservatives at all.

Which led me to the scare-tactics comment.

Just now while writing this, I got a cold call from the Liberal party rep in my area...When I explained that my wife and I are staunch PC supporters she didn't event try to argue with me...just said thanks and hung up... :P
 
More from Steven Staples. I wonder if he and his fellow travellers will be able to push this issue up in the final weeks of the election?



Which party leader is speaking out for peace?
Tell us your opinion on Ceasefire.ca
 
Dear Ceasefire.ca supporter,

If you watched the debates this week, you are probably as disappointed as I am about the discussion of the war in Afghanistan.

That's why I hope you will join our campaign and write to your local candidates through Ceasefire.ca, urging them to take a stand on peace and human rights. Please send your letter now, if you have not done so already.

Why is that 61 per cent of Canadians think that the cost of the war has been too high, yet it has barely been an issue?

It’s because the war has become wrapped up in wedge politics in Ottawa, just as I described in my chapter in the new book, The Harper Record.

That means it is up to citizens to take the issue back, and press all the parties to find a peaceful end to the war. If we make our voices heard, then the politicians will not be able to ignore us.

Afghanistan's President Karzai has pleaded, again, with the international community for help in finding a settlement. Too many women and children are being killed in coalition air strikes and insurgent attacks.

The war has to end, then, we can get moving on aid and development. (interpolation; this is true, but not in the way he thinks. The sooner we can clear the Taliban and AQ from a district, the sooner we can move in with redevelopment)

I have posted a transcript and video of last night’s leader debate about Afghanistan on Ceasefire.ca. Have a look, and please leave a comment about who you thought did the best job speaking out for peace.


In peace,

Steven Staples
President of the Rideau Institute and
Founder of Ceasefire.ca
 
Unfortunately, I think Steven Staples has named his organization incorrectly.  It should be "capitulate.ca".  He is not talking about Peace in Afghanistan at all.  We have "peace" here in Canada.  We are trying to bring peace to the people of Afghanistan.  Our giving up on the Afghans does them more harm than good.  Everything we have strived for and been able to do to help the Afghans will be thrown out the window if we listen to Staples' rhetoric.  It would be more productive if he were to take that rhetoric to the Afghans, not Canadians.  We are already living in a peaceful society.  They are not.
 
I hate how these guys keep intimating that we are not doing and aid and development. We've been doing it all along. Roto Zero Athena did approx 155 projects while on the ground, in 03\04. This included refurbing, or building, schools and hospitals, bridges and roads. Projects for helping women develop and run their own businesses were also a priority. Orphanages were supplied with PP&S for the students as well as grain for the bakery that was rebuilt. Another approx 30 projects were in the initial stages and turned over to the follow on BG. CIDA funds were procured because we ran out of money. That was just a start, The CIMIC teams and mandates have grown since that time when we had only three teams on the ground.

But that stuff is boring and doesn't sell newspapers. People that harp on us not doing any of this stuff just don't want to admit we are, because it would totally deflate the only argument they have.



 
Anyone else see the disconnect in the whole NDP plan?  To summarize...

"We are going to build jobs for the average worker, by punishing the corporations that create the jobs for the average worker..."

So let me get this right.  The END (Jobs for the "workers") are going to be had by the MEANS (punishing the Corporations that create jobs).  Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't the means lead you to your ends not away from them?'
 
Zip

From there straight to the planned economy producing mass quantities of wagon wheel spokes and candle stick holders......and concisely described in this tale from a friend of mine that grew up in a planned economy:

Two men were spotted moving across a field.  The man in front was digging a trench.  Following along, exactly 12 minutes and 42 seconds later, the second man was filling the trench in again.  When asked what they were doing the guy filling in the trench said: "Well there was supposed to be a third guy here laying pipe - but he called in sick."
 
Thucydides said:
I think we are looking at the same problem from two different angles:

You say (correctly) that a good balance sheet with accumulated assets can allow a tax cut, and prudent fiscal management is its own reward.

I say (also correctly) that Company "X" is looking for the best ROI, so if Jurisdiction "Y" has a better ROI due to low taxes and regulations, they will tend to go to that jurisdiction. If Jurisdiction "Y" happens to have a poor balance sheet, then they need to attract as many business and investors as possible. Holding onto high rates of taxation to balance the books becomes a loosing proposition when the very business and workers who's tax dollars you need choose to do business outside your jurisdiction.

Remember, Sweden did not choose to lower their tax rates because they have a positive asset balance; they did so to stay competitive with nations like Poland and Ireland (who, so far as I know, do not have a positive balance of assets on their books).

It's not a matter of different angles.  You've posted an article then further commented that "We should cut corporate taxes like Sweden" and then "National Debt level have little bearing in that discussion." 

I'm saying the exact opposite.  That unequivocally, a nation's debt (or accumulated asset) level is the key determining factor in its ability adjust corporate tax rates and that a nation's focus on reducing its debt and that in looking at a global playing field, it will be each nation's debt/accumulated asset which will drive their competitive advantage in future years as those with accumulated surpluses will have an ability to provide identical services to their citizens at significantly lower individual and corporate tax rates.

Let's look at two hypothetical cases.

Both Countries X & Y:
Population 30,000,000
GDP: 1,200,000,000,000 (or $40,000.00 per citizen)

Country X:
National Debt: $600,000,000,000 (or $20,000.00 per citizen)
Debt Servicing: $45,000,000,000 (or $1,500.00 per citizen based on 7.5% interest rate which is a low estimate)

Country Y:
National Surplus: $150,000,000,000 (or $5,000.00 per citizen)
Interest Earnings: $8,250,000,000 (or $275.00 per citizen again based on 5.5% interest rate which again is a low estimate)

The comparison therefore is that on a national basis with identical government service delivery and individual tax rates, Country Y has the ability to reduce corporate taxes by $1,775.00 per citizen without either raising individual tax rates above the level of Country X, nor cutting services below the level of Country X.  That number multiplied by 30 million citizens is $53.5 billion in unneeded tax revenues.  Putting that into context, Canada currently collects roughly $39,000,000,000.00 billion per annum in corporate taxes (this is from the Fiscal Monitor - July 2008).  If Canada therefore were in the position of being Country Y instead of Country X, we could not only eliminate all our corporate taxes, but could also reduce our personal taxes by an additional $12.5 billion.

The 'lightbulb issue" being Canada is roughly in position of Country X while many of our competitors are in the position of being Country Y (obviously with different populations).  And that although you're claiming our debt is inconsequential, it is in fact an albatross that most certainly impedes our ability to compete with those countries who are in the status of Country Y.  Specifically, on a globally competitive playing field, should these Country Y states decide to go to a 0% corporate tax rate (which they can afford to do), Canada has little option but to try to match that rate in order to compete for corporate investment due to mobility of capital which leaves us one of three options: i) Increase Individual Taxes, ii) Cut services, or iii) Run Deficits which will only compound the problem.  I should add that one solution (raising individual tax rates) creates its own problems as not only in a global world do we face mobility of capital, we face mobility of talent.....and should places like the Persian Gulf offer opportunities at both 0% corporate tax, and 0% individual tax, we run the very real risk of losing some of our best and brightest.....and for the record, don't think for one second that the Country Y's out there aren't in the process of trying to steal not only our corporate offices but also our best talent with their competitive advantage.

Bottom Line:  We are not paying too much tax.  We are paying too little.  Our debt at the very least needs to be eliminated, and at best moved to mild accumulated surplus as otherwise Canada will become a "have not" country by the time our children reach working age. 

Welcome to the new reality....


Matthew.  :salute:
 
some of those savings might be in the Health Care area....efficiencies, etc might reduce the 41% (?)of the budget spent on Health and related areas.
 
Kirkhill said:
Two men were spotted moving across a field.  The man in front was digging a trench.  Following along, exactly 12 minutes and 42 seconds later, the second man was filling the trench in again.  When asked what they were doing the guy filling in the trench said: "Well there was supposed to be a third guy here laying pipe - but he called in sick."

:rofl:

You just described Jacko's concept exactly
 
The NDP, like other "Progressive" parties plays on the powerful human emotions like Greed and Envy. It is easy to play on these tropes with short soundbites (Tax the Rich; "Kitchen table, not Boardroom table"), but much harder to refute these tropes with a 30 second soundbite (even that may be too long; it seems an 8 second soundbite is the current ideal. Any shorter and you are into subliminal advertising!).

Imagine the fallout if Stephen Harper was to state the real, unvarnished truth: Corporations pay no tax. Regardless of the rates governments set, corporations simply pass on the costs to consumers, and if the costs are too high, in foregone opportunity costs (i.e. no new investments, products or hiring), and if that is still too high, then by decamping the jurisdiction entirely.

Now:
a. Explain that in 30 seconds or less
b. Refute the argument (presented in it's entirety) that "This idea is just an example of corporate greed"

Also:
a. Explain the best economic policy is to abolish corporate income tax
b. Refute the argument (presented in it's entirety) that "This idea is just an example of corporate greed"

Add an MSM that won't provide the time or space for the detailed analysis of the idea or refutation of argument "b" and you see why the Conservatives seem rather muted. (Anyone who can explain the concept or refute argument b in >30 seconds should contact their local CPC candidate or riding office immediately).
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
The 'lightbulb issue" being Canada is roughly in position of Country X while many of our competitors are in the position of being Country Y (obviously with different populations).  And that although you're claiming our debt is inconsequential, it is in fact an albatross that most certainly impedes our ability to compete with those countries who are in the status of Country Y.  Specifically, on a globally competitive playing field, should these Country Y states decide to go to a 0% corporate tax rate (which they can afford to do), Canada has little option but to try to match that rate in order to compete for corporate investment due to mobility of capital which leaves us one of three options: i) Increase Individual Taxes, ii) Cut services, or iii) Run Deficits which will only compound the problem.  I should add that one solution (raising individual tax rates) creates its own problems as not only in a global world do we face mobility of capital, we face mobility of talent.....and should places like the Persian Gulf offer opportunities at both 0% corporate tax, and 0% individual tax, we run the very real risk of losing some of our best and brightest.....and for the record, don't think for one second that the Country Y's out there aren't in the process of trying to steal not only our corporate offices but also our best talent with their competitive advantage.

But that is exactly what I am saying. Corporation "X" does not care if the nation they are setting up shop in has a surplus or a debt, they care about ROI. Sweden is reducing its taxes not because their balance sheet is better than Poland's or Ireland's, but because they must remain competitive with other nations within their region. The fact they do have a positive balance sheet makes it easier for them to do so, but if they didn't cut taxes, they would see their business bleeding away to other nations regardless of the balance sheet. (and after a while, they would go into the red as they lost their business and talent).

So nations with a debt must maintain a competitive tax rate with other nations in their region regardless of their balance sheet. The unpalatable options really boil down to one; they must cut Government spending to match their tax revenues and then cut even more to work on paying down the debt, but the paramount issue is to remain competitive in the tax arena.

 
Thucydides said:
Imagine the fallout if Stephen Harper was to state the real, unvarnished truth: Corporations pay no tax. Regardless of the rates governments set, corporations simply pass on the costs to consumers, and if the costs are too high, in foregone opportunity costs (i.e. no new investments, products or hiring), and if that is still too high, then by decamping the jurisdiction entirely.

Now:
a. Explain that in 30 seconds or less
"Lower corporate taxes means lower costs to consumers"
Thucydides said:
b. Refute the argument (presented in it's entirety) that "This idea is just an example of corporate greed"
"All businesses, big and small, are out to make money.  Lower taxes makes business in Canada viable.  This translates into jobs for Canadians"
Thucydides said:
Also:
a. Explain the best economic policy is to abolish corporate income tax
"Lower corporate taxes means lower costs to consumers"
Thucydides said:
b. Refute the argument (presented in it's entirety) that "This idea is just an example of corporate greed"

"All businesses, big and small, are out to make money.  Lower taxes makes business in Canada viable.  This translates into jobs for Canadians"
 
This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from yesterday’s Globe and Mail, is an interesting bit of speculation:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081004.ELECTIONNDP04/TPStory/politics
THE FEDERAL ELECTION: POLITICAL STRATEGY: ENDGAME: WHAT THE PARTIES HAVE PLANNED FOR THE LAST 10 DAYS OF THE CAMPAIGN
[SIZE=14PT]THE NDP: A LIBERAL COALITION?[/SIZE]

GLORIA GALLOWAY

October 4, 2008

The New Democrats will spend the last leg of the election campaign homing in on ridings they want to poach from the Conservatives amid persistent speculation that they want to form a coalition with the Liberals after the vote.

In the next couple of days, the NDP plane will land in Newfoundland, British Columbia and Saskatchewan, where Tory incumbents abound.

That's because, politically, it does the NDP little good to rob ridings from the Liberals, said Henry Jacek, a professor of political science at Hamilton's McMaster University.

Mr. Layton "won't admit it, [liberal Leader Stéphane] Dion won't admit it, but I think their strategy has to be that, between the two of them, they have to have enough seats where they can challenge Harper on a non-confidence motion after the election," Dr. Jacek said. "I think what he's hoping is that he and Dion will make a deal and that they will put a joint motion together that, if they should win it, they would then form a coalition government with Dion as prime minister and Jack a deputy prime minister."

Dr. Jacek was referring to the fact that the party that wins the most seats Oct. 14 gets to form a government. But if a Conservative minority were then defeated in the House of Commons, the Liberals and the NDP could try to persuade the Governor-General that they were willing to co-operate, either as a coalition or with an understanding that the party who assumes power would not soon be defeated. If the two parties did not have more seats combined than the Conservatives, they would need a written agreement of co-operation from the Bloc Québécois.

When asked during a TV interview last month if he would consider a coalition with other parties in Parliament, Mr. Layton said: "I've worked with any other party. I think people have seen that. Maybe it goes back to my days on municipal council - you roll up your sleeves and you try to solve a problem." He has since explained several times that he was envisioning a scenario in which his party won a minority government.

Veteran New Democrat Ed Broadbent said yesterday that he was not prepared to discuss party strategy or tactics. Mr. Broadbent said he thought Mr. Layton's performance in this week's leadership debates "does mean we are going to make major gains."

Dr. Jacek said an NDP-Liberal coalition that would have the plurality required to form a government is possible only if the two parties pick up seats from the Tories on Oct. 14.

Ned Franks, a constitutional expert and professor emeritus at Queen's University, said it was not beyond the realm of possibility that the NDP and the Liberals could team up to form government.

The Liberals could get an agreement from the NDP and the Bloc that they would not defeat a Liberal government for two years, Dr. Franks said. Or, "there might be a coalition with the NDP and an agreement with the Bloc," he said.

Brad Lavigne, the NDP's communication director, said: "The great thing about ... our democracy is it's not up to political science professors to pick the prime minister; it's up to Canadians to pick the prime minister."

This is intriguing as a numbers game. First, if the numbers are there and IF the Conservatives are defeated soon enough, the GG would be had pressed not to invite Dion/Layton to form a government.

The easiest numbers are:

• C < 154

• L+N >C

The Liberals and NDP, combined, can defeat the Tories and can secure the confidence of the House – therefore they can form a fairly ‘hard’ left of centre (not just centre-left) government.

------------------

The harder numbers are:

• C < 154

• L+N < C

• B < C

• B+L+N ≥ 155

In this case life is very complex for Dion/Layton. It is one thing to join with the Bloc to defeat Harper et al but it is quite another to, even just implicitly, unite with the separatists – the people who want to destroy Canada – to govern. It is not clear to me that the risk is worth the 'rewards.' Canadians might severely punish the Liberals and NDP for being in league with the enemies of Canada.


Edit: for format and accuracy/clarity - which were sacrificed on the alter of brevity
 
Canadian leader backs visa office in Mumbai, official status for Punjabi
September 29th, 2008 - 1:32 pm ICT by IANS -
Article Link

Toronto, Sep 29 (IANS) Canadian opposition leader Jack Layton has promised support for a new visa office in Mumbai and official status for the Punjabi language in Canada if he becomes prime minister after the Oct 14 polls.Jack, whose New Democratic Party (NDP) has fielded a record 14 Indian Canadian candidates to woo the million-strong community, said his party will also roll back a newly passed immigration bill that the community finds discriminatory.

India will be a priority nation for his government if it comes to power and he will visit New Delhi at the earliest, Layton told IANS in an interview.

Layton noted that given the increasing influence of India in the international business and political realms and the increasing number of immigration applications in India, “it would only make sense to expand our diplomatic and administrative presence in India.

“A visa office in Mumbai is one way that increased presence could be realized and my party government will be open to studying the merits of this proposal,” Layton added.

He said that if he becomes prime minister, “I would look forward to visiting India early in my term to discuss a variety of opportunities that exist to strengthen ties between our countries”.

Layton also made clear his displeasure over a new bill that nixes India’s chances of becoming the number one source of immigration to Canada.
More on link
 
ArmyVern said:
Well, I voted today.
...

I did too, yesterday.

I cannot think of anything that might happen in the last 10 days of the campaign that would cause me to change my vote:

1. I don't live in QC so I could not vote BQ even if wanted to, and I would not want to do that;
2. The Greens are a sad political joke;
3. I could not support the NDP - on too many grounds to list; and
4. While I have voted Liberal in the past, the conditions that might allow me to do so again do not exist - and those conditions go well beyond leadership or/and policy, combined.
 

As quoted in the news last night, it is fairly standard, at this point in the election, for the Liberals to decry possible defeat and call all Liberals, Dippers, and other such sundry to come home and ward off the evil Conservatives........apparently it isn't working.

Let's hope so, that might allow the CPC to come up the middle of a lot of split left votes and win the seats...
 
I also voted yesterday. The requirement to verify one's identity and address, and the recording of the details by the clerk writing them by pen on a form meant that it took about three minutes to process a voter from arrival at the desk to the deposit of the ballot. Given that the poll is open for a total of 24 hours over three days, that means that a maximum of 480 voters can cast their ballot at least at this polling station. Will the system be able to handle the numbers who wish to use the advance polls? I don't know, but the flow of voters was fairly steady.
 
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