Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement

[Colin Parkinson]

Actually it's a Malaysian Simba, but likely it has it's roots in the Ratel. According to the Malays they are getting long in the tooth and need replacing. Apparently the crews gets about 5 rds of main gun ammo a year to shoot so they are not as effective as they could be.

Drivers position


they also have a recovery version

 

[Grizzly]

I'm not so sure Colin. The Simba is a 4x4 vehicle as seen here http://www.military-today.com/apc/simba.htm. The one you posted looks like a Ratel to me, but I'm not an expert. We should pop it into the afv recognition thread to see if anyone else can shed some insight.
Regardless, I think it's usefull that the RG-35 come is different wheel bases too since it allows greater versatility. However, all of the TAPV candidates have a rather high profile it seems. Will this be an issue when used as a recce / scout vehicle?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I took the pictures at the Pt Dickson museum, the plaque said Simba if I recall correctly. I think the confusion comes from both the British vehicle named Simba and the Malaysian Military also having a vehicle named Simba. It appears that the Malaysian Military bought 180 of these vehicles equipped with a LP 90MM gun. I will confirm this with a Malaysian friend of mine on another forum.

 

[Kirkhill]

Grizzly and Colin:

The Ratel look-a-like is the SIBMAS APC developed by BN Constructions Ferroviaires Metalliques of Belgium in 1976.  It was purchased by Malaysia in 1981 with deliveries of 162 Cockerill 90 armed Fire Support Vehicles between 1983 and 1985

At least according to my well-thumbed Jane's Tank Recognition Guide - 1996

 

[Grizzly]

Good call guys. Yup, I found the entry in Janes too. Definitely the Belgian / Malaysian SIMBAS, though boy does it look similar to the Ratel. Having two vehicles with such similar names really is confusing. Anyway, thanks for the clarification!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My Malaysian friend confirmed it's the SIBMAS, sorry for the confusion, I blame the heat and lack of beer  :nod:

They also operate the Condor and Simba which just makes it that much more fun. If you think we have logistical issues imagine being in charge of maintaining the Malaysian armoured fleet with vehicles from around the world.

 

[GK .Dundas]

My Malaysian friend confirmed it's the SIBMAS, sorry for the confusion, I blame the heat and lack of beer  :nod:

They also operate the Condor and Simba which just makes it that much more fun. If you think we have logistical issues imagine being in charge of maintaining the Malaysian armoured fleet with vehicles from around the world.

You people have obviously never followed the trial and tribulations of  of being a logistics officer in the Thai military. Where the country's Generals and Admirals are pretty well allowed  to buy almost ANYTHING that strikes their fancy ....

 

[The Bread Guy]

An update:

Oshkosh Defense, a division of Oshkosh Corporation, today delivered the Oshkosh Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle (TAPV) to Aberdeen Test Center in Maryland where the Canadian Department of National Defence (DND) will conduct mobility, survivability and weapons testing. Oshkosh Defense’s response to the TAPV solicitation was submitted to the Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC) last week …. The TAPV is intended to replace the Armoured Patrol Vehicle (APV) and the Coyote reconnaissance vehicle, to help ensure the Canadian Army remains capable of effective training, supporting domestic operations and sustaining deployed forces as part of the Canada First Defence Strategy. The Oshkosh TAPV, which is based on the company’s proven Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected All-Terrain Vehicle (M-ATV) platform, leverages a mission-proven chassis and the patented TAK-4® independent suspension system used on more than 20,000 military-class vehicles, which have proven highly-effective in some of the most extreme operating environments, including Afghanistan.  In independent testing conducted to date, the Oshkosh TAPV has undergone on- and off-road durability validation, successfully met ballistic and other survivability threat requirements (including the use of steel-pot method for NATO STANAG blast tests), and completed extensive live-fire demonstrations of the fully integrated dual Remote Weapon Station (RWS).  The combination of these activities demonstrates the effectiveness, maturity and reliability of the Oshkosh TAPV ….

Company news release, 29 Aug 11

 

[The Bread Guy]

Force Protection Industries, Inc., a FORCE PROTECTION, INC. group company, today announced the submission of a bid and test vehicle to the Canadian Forces for the Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle (TAPV) project.

Force Protection is offering the Canadian Forces a 6x6 variant of the battle proven Cougar wheeled combat vehicle developed by Force Protection to meet the TAPV requirements. Force Protection will be the design authority and have overall responsibility for the acquisition contract to supply the TAPV vehicles and maintain configuration control.

As Force Protection's main Canadian partner, CAE will have overall responsibility for the comprehensive in-service support (ISS) solution, including: vehicle operator and mission training systems; engineering information environment; fleet management services; systems engineering support; and, lifecycle and integrated logistics support services. CAE will also be responsible for assembling a pan-Canadian team of companies to develop and support any country-specific requirements for Canada's replacement fleet of tactical armored patrol vehicles ....

Company news release, 1 Sept 11

 

[PuckChaser]

Force Protection better make their Cougar vehicle offroad far better than it does right now. Its a great MRAP, but apparently is just a slug moving cross-country.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Force Protection better make their Cougar vehicle offroad far better than it does right now. Its a great MRAP, but apparently is just a slug moving cross-country.

Citations needed please.

 

[Kirkhill]

Now that the TAPV programme has shaken out and test vehicles are being delivered can anyone tell me if it is an "F", "A" or (in a world of armoured Tank Transporters) even a "B" vehicle?

Edit: The Coyote Role seems to have been allocated to the LAV III Upgrade with the LRSS on board - so the TAPV will not be a Coyote.

The Textron/Rheinmetall/Kongsberg submission looks to me to be the only one that could pass the sniff test as an F Echelon vehicle that might be compatible with a Recce force.

The rest of them look like Landrovers on steroids, Humber "Pigs" or armoured Deuce and a Halfs.  All of which have their uses (ACP, Rovers, Liaison Vehicles) and are useful and necessary pieces of kit to have on hand. 

But for the life of me I can't see building a recce force or a light battalion around a "Pig".

Generally speaking, I believe, vehicles like that are assigned to operational battalions on an as needed basis and are not their primary vehicles.

 

[PuckChaser]

Citations needed please.

Personal friend who spent 7 months in one.

 

[Snaketnk]

I've done patrols in the things; it's basically immobilized by a speedbump. Over the course of several months the act of going over speedbumps was enough to shake whole sections of the vehicle loose. I remember one vehicle in our camp had the fuel tank held on with cargo straps. It's astounding how bad it is off road.

Riding in the back of an MSVS on a hole-riddled training area road is more smooth than being in the back of a Cougar.

Within the city, because of it's adversity to speedbumps, short trips would triple in length if we included Cougars in our patrols.

 

[REDinstaller]

Now that the TAPV programme has shaken out and test vehicles are being delivered can anyone tell me if it is an "F", "A" or (in a world of armoured Tank Transporters) even a "B" vehicle?

Edit: The Coyote Role seems to have been allocated to the LAV III Upgrade with the LRSS on board - so the TAPV will not be a Coyote.

The Textron/Rheinmetall/Kongsberg submission looks to me to be the only one that could pass the sniff test as an F Echelon vehicle that might be compatible with a Recce force.

The rest of them look like Landrovers on steroids, Humber "Pigs" or armoured Deuce and a Halfs.  All of which have their uses (ACP, Rovers, Liaison Vehicles) and are useful and necessary pieces of kit to have on hand. 

But for the life of me I can't see building a recce force or a light battalion around a "Pig".

Generally speaking, I believe, vehicles like that are assigned to operational battalions on an as needed basis and are not their primary vehicles.

The TAPV would be classed as an "A" veh. This is due to the armour being integral to the veh. A "B" veh would have an add on kit available to provide armour for it, along with the fact it would be a type of logistic or liaison veh.

 

[McG]

The TAPV would be classed as an "A" veh. This is due to the armour being integral to the veh. A "B" veh would have an add on kit available to provide armour for it, along with the fact it would be a type of logistic or liaison veh.

I believe the intent of the question was not in regards to the typical "A fleet" and "B fleet" terms that we use.  Rather, it was to ask if the potential TAPV platforms were most suitable for operating in the F, A or B echelons.

 

[REDinstaller]

If thats the case then is should be a "F" ech veh.

 

[McG]

If thats the case then is should be a "F" ech veh.

Yes, it should be.  Kirkhill's assessment is that only one of he prospective options actually looks fit to be in an F ech.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Now that the TAPV programme has shaken out and test vehicles are being delivered can anyone tell me if it is an "F", "A" or (in a world of armoured Tank Transporters) even a "B" vehicle?

Edit: The Coyote Role seems to have been allocated to the LAV III Upgrade with the LRSS on board - so the TAPV will not be a Coyote.

The Textron/Rheinmetall/Kongsberg submission looks to me to be the only one that could pass the sniff test as an F Echelon vehicle that might be compatible with a Recce force.

The rest of them look like Landrovers on steroids, Humber "Pigs" or armoured Deuce and a Halfs.  All of which have their uses (ACP, Rovers, Liaison Vehicles) and are useful and necessary pieces of kit to have on hand. 

But for the life of me I can't see building a recce force or a light battalion around a "Pig".

Generally speaking, I believe, vehicles like that are assigned to operational battalions on an as needed basis and are not their primary vehicles.

the pig is an interesting vehicle, they were converted in a hurry from the Humber general purpose truck as there was a shortage of wheeled armour to use in Northern Ireland, a rather successful conversion. There was also a AT version fitted with the SS11 I think.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Oshkosh Defense, a division of Oshkosh Corporation (NYSE:OSK), announced today that the company will open a new office in Ottawa, Ontario, to support vehicle programs for the Canadian Department of National Defence (DND).

“We are committed to supporting the DND’s vehicle programs and creating programs of lasting value for the Canadian economy,” said Serge Buchakjian, senior vice president and general manager of International Programs for Oshkosh Defense. “Our presence in Ottawa will enable regular dialogue and long-term collaboration – from the initial production through vehicle sustainment.”

The Oshkosh office in Ottawa will provide program management, industrial and regional benefits management, engineering, contract management, and purchasing support for Canadian programs.

The office expands Oshkosh Corporation’s established presence through Ontario-based London Machinery, Inc. (LMI), a subsidiary that was founded in Canada in 1905. LMI will provide advanced vehicle manufacturing capabilities including assembly, subsystem integration and final acceptance testing for DND programs. Work will be performed by LMI’s highly skilled workforce, applying the latest manufacturing methods and quality processes at the company’s 140,000-square-foot facility. Oshkosh also is teamed with General Dynamics Land Systems-Canada to provide in-country vehicle support and system integration.

The new office also increases the global presence of Oshkosh Defense. The company has offices around the world, including locations in North America, Europe and the Middle East.

Oshkosh is currently pursuing the DND’s Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle (TAPV) program, which will replace the Armoured Patrol Vehicle (APV) and the Coyote reconnaissance vehicle.

Oshkosh delivered its TAPV to Aberdeen Test Center in Maryland in August for DND mobility, survivability and weapons testing. The fully integrated Oshkosh TAPV is based on the proven Oshkosh Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected All-Terrain Vehicle (M-ATV) platform and is customized to the Canadian Forces’ requirements ....

Company news release, 9 Jan 12