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Submarine Economics

Disillusioned

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FastEddy said:
The   major question is not, if we need Submarines, but why are we buying some bodys elses JUNK.
If other Countries can afford to by Submarines that can pose a threat, why are we buying equipment
that is out-matched and out-dated ?.


It looks Canada's defence establishment is heavily influenced by the Americans. Turns out the Americans had no diesel subs and wanted to train against them because so many other countries have them.

www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/28/sub_purchase041028.html


In case people think we can't afford to build our own excellent nuclear subs, for our own defence purposes, the reason for this claim is our deregulated and almost fully privatized debt-based banking system., which focuses on keeping inflation down for the wealthy, rather than full-employment.

These sites explain "where all the money went."

www.comer.org   (focuses on a lot of money-related topics)

www.canadianactionparty.ca   (focuses on the Bank of Canada)

www.wizardsofmoney.org    

(focuses on the U.S. federal reserve, which is similar to the systems in all G-8 countries.)
 
DJL said:
I believe that whatever we end up paying to get the Upholders seaworthy and operational it will be much less than the cost of building a similar number of new subs, even if we have an experienced yard design and build them. It would be completely impractical to have Canadian yards even attempt it, as no Canadian yard has ever built sea-going, or even coastal, submarines. Again, I suggest you look at the history of the Australian Collins class.

Though I agree with you on the savings involved with the Victoria's....... Vickers Canada built submarines for the Royal Navy during the first world war in Montreal.....

With that said, I'd doubt Canadian yards today could build a modern sub without headaches and a hefty pricetag.......


As I mentioned earlier with those links on the money system, if we re-democratized our money system and reregualted it, cost wouldn't be an issue.....when you buy foriegn, those resources are invested into a foreign country and disappear.

Even if it cost a lot, more people would be employed, we'd gain prestige from buillding our own subs, and the personal taxes paid by the workers and owners of the shipyard (assuming it's a private shipyard) would at least stay in our country and be partially spent back into our economy.

I won't argue that the Irvings in New Brunswick spent the profits they made on our Halifax-class frigates back into our economy, because I don't know what they did, but they do pay some corporate tax, and the workers live here, and they would certainly spend money on every-day necessities as well as pay personal income taxes.
 
As I mentioned earlier with those links on the money system, if we re-democratized our money system and reregualted it, cost wouldn't be an issue.....when you buy foriegn, those resources are invested into a foreign country and disappear.

Did you or a member of your family build your own home? Did you or a member of your family grow your own food? Knit your own clothes? If not why? Wouldn't those resources that you spend to purchase these items be better spent if kept within your family?

Even if it cost a lot, more people would be employed, we'd gain prestige from buillding our own subs, and the personal taxes paid by the workers and owners of the shipyard (assuming it's a private shipyard) would at least stay in our country and be partially spent back into our economy.

......or the money saved on corporate and regional wealthfare could be given back to Canadians in the form of tax cuts, and we could spend the money how we like.

I won't argue that the Irvings in New Brunswick spent the profits they made on our Halifax-class frigates back into our economy, because I don't know what they did, but they do pay some corporate tax, and the workers live here, and they would certainly spend money on every-day necessities as well as pay personal income taxes.

So basically, you want to spend tax dollars, to make more tax dollars? Why not cut out the middle man (government) and allow people to spend their money how they like. Then allow natural selection to take it's place on the Irvings......
 
DJL said:
......or the money saved on corporate and regional wealthfare could be given back to Canadians in the form of tax cuts, and we could spend the money how we like.

I won't argue that the Irvings in New Brunswick spent the profits they made on our Halifax-class frigates back into our economy, because I don't know what they did, but they do pay some corporate tax, and the workers live here, and they would certainly spend money on every-day necessities as well as pay personal income taxes.

So basically, you want to spend tax dollars, to make more tax dollars? Why not cut out the middle man (government) and allow people to spend their money how they like. Then allow natural selection to take it's place on the Irvings......


DJL, you clearly didn't read the links I posted......I do agree that the poor & "middle class" are over-taxd, but it's because we're taxing the wrong people. What does this have to do with submarines?

Firstly, when it comes to submarines, it's not a question of giving money to families instead--only the government can afford to build submarines.

The question is: where do we get them? If you do a good job, it's cheaper for a country to build them itself. Why? Because, money spent overseas is money lost, whereas money spent in Canada means:

1 - corporate taxes for our government to use in any way--from more spending to tax cuts, whatver.

2 - more personal income taxes collected.

3 - national prestige and spinoff industry jobs, subcontracts, etcettera.


This plan would help us get closer to full-employment. Tax rates don't matter if you live in Newfoundland on welfare.

The whole point is that it's better to have government moeny spent on Canadian jobs, who pay Canadian taxes, than to send our government resources to Britain, Germany or the United States where the resources are probably gone from our economy forever while our workers have no well-paying manufacturing jobs to do and sit at home. You have to invest in your society to get a benefit.

As I also said regarding the moeny system, we could easily afford everything we need militarily, health care wise, and infrastruvture wise and still have reasonably-low taxes if we reformed our money system and stopped buying into globalization and neo-liberalism.

Our "inability" to afford anything is a total lie. We're creating tonnes of wealth, and our biggest expense is private debt--totally unnecessary but completely planned.


here are the links again:   www.comer.org ,   www.canadianactionparty.ca , www.wizardsofmoney.org


I guarantee that anyone who takes the time to fully understand the money system will realize we've been lied to by ideologues for a long time about having "no money" for anything. We could have a huge military and a whole lot more.....just read the links.


 
Disillusioned, I've no problem continuing with this discussion, but I would ask you to do me the courtesy
of answering my very simple question(s):

Did you or a member of your family build your own home? Did you or a member of your family grow your own food? Knit your own clothes? If not why? Wouldn't those resources that you spend to purchase these items be better spent if kept within your family?

Thanks.


 
Disillusioned said:
here are the links again:  www.comer.org ,  www.canadianactionparty.ca , www.wizardsofmoney.org

Wow.  I'm assuming that you've never taken an econ course in your life...  The econometrics used in comer.org are complete rubbish.  As for using a third-string political party as a source of factual economic information is patently false.  Have you READ that website?  It says NOTHING that would show me where you got your "ideas" from.  At best they are an isolationist party that would plunge our economy back in to the stone age.  Abolish NAFTA?  You obviously have NO idea the trade surplus we have with them...  Are you willing to shrink Canada's GDP by over 25% overnight?  Seriously...  At best, they seem to be even more socialist than the NDP, and god knows what a great track record they have with the economy...

And the Wizards of Money is a cheezy, after-school special dummified version of some PBS rejects monetary policy.  You use it as a reference, when they've got ONE episode?  (Which, I might add, only seems to discuss the philosophical ramifications of our monetary system))

Seriously, you should take a few basic economics courses.  You might stop spouting misinformation.  Conspiracy theory, anyone?

T
 
Hey Torlyn, that's just what the Yankee imperialists want you to believe.

Vote for the Canadian Action Party, so we can all be dirt poor.  Makes sense....
 
Infanteer said:
Hey Torlyn, that's just what the Yankee imperialists want you to believe.

Vote for the Canadian Action Party, so we can all be dirt poor.  Makes sense....

Damned Yankees...  Always trying to force their imperialist ideals of "freedom" and "liberty" on us...  Sheesh.  What's next, "democracy"?
(Sarcasm detector anyone?)  ;D
T
 
Disillusioned said:
Tax rates don't matter if you live in Newfoundland on welfare.

One of the draw back to the internet is that you can say things often without repercussions. Disillusioned, if this discussion occurred in "real life" you and I would have more than words. I guarentee you would be held accountable.


 
No worries Bograt if he hasn't figured he is pushing for a ban yet then there is no hope for him.
 
In case people think we can't afford to build our own excellent nuclear subs, for our own defence purposes, the reason for this claim is our deregulated and almost fully privatized debt-based banking system., which focuses on keeping inflation down for the wealthy, rather than full-employment.

As it so happens, my higher education is in economics, and I can't recall having seen a sillier assertation since the last time I got a "Social Credit" phamplet in my mailbox. Without spending my entire lunch hour on this, we can simply look at the historical record to see which system usually outperforms the other: Highly regulated banking systems or deregulated "for profit" systems. The times the deregulated systems fail is usually when there is some sort of ill advised government intervention into the economy or the banking system.

Inflation is the scourge of the poor, since the wealthy have the resources to shift their assets into "real" goods which keep their value, while the poor find their monetary saveings, pension plans etc. are eroding in value as inflation eats away at the value of money. During the Carter presidency, inflation was tearing the heart out of the Western economy as the savings pool dried up (rich people moving assets to real goods, and what was left was loosing its value), yet unemployment was also spiralling out of control. Keynsian and Marxist economic theory wasn't any help (in fact Keynsian theory explicitly denies that inflation and unemployment can move in the same direction at the same time), it took a combination of monetarist dicipline on the part of the US Federal reserve to reign in inflation, while deep tax cuts by the Reagan administration jump started the US economy. In a seven year period, the United States increased GDP by 30%, and it can be argued that if the USSR didn't exist, government spending would not have increased at the rate it did to support the political imperative to defeat the USSR.

Short summary, tax cuts stimulate the economy and increase overall wealth. Today, the same thing is happening, as tax cuts and eliminating double taxation is propelling the US to an annual 5% increase in GDP (which vastly increase American wealth and power over the Bush administration.se a compound interest table to figure out why), while bringing unemployment to the lowest figure in the industral world.

As for subs, the public clearly does not want to increase Defense spending. With a $9 billion dollar surplus being posted this year alone, there is enough government money to buy almost any defense system we could desire, but no will to spend it that way. I would argue that the best thing to do in this situation is to reduce taxes by $9 billion, and let economic growth power increased Defense expenditures (1.1% of a growing economy is an increase in real terms).

<rant off>
 
Gee, don't you hate it when half-baked social ideas fall apart under silly notions like facts and historical record?

BZ A Majoor.
 
Great post, a_majoor.  Thanks for clarifying for Delusional.  (Sorry, I mean disillusioned)  ;)

T
 
In case people think we can't afford to build our own excellent nuclear subs, for our own defence purposes, the reason for this claim is our deregulated and almost fully privatized debt-based banking system., which focuses on keeping inflation down for the wealthy, rather than full-employment.

As it so happens, my higher education is in economics, and I can't recall having seen a sillier assertation since the last time I got a "Social Credit" phamplet in my mailbox. Without spending my entire lunch hour on this, we can simply look at the historical record to see which system usually outperforms the other: Highly regulated banking systems or deregulated "for profit" systems. The times the deregulated systems fail is usually when there is some sort of ill advised government intervention into the economy or the banking system.

Your "higher-education" in neo-classical economics won't help you here. During Worl War II, Canada's government DID intervene in the banking system, as our Bank of Canada, naionalized in 1938, forced private banks to increase their reserve holdings, and created nearly interest-free loans to pay for our military.

Canada was in a depression, people were unemployed--all of a sudden, everyone was employed, we built 15,000 planes, 600 ships, WITHOUT going into debt. How? We borrowed from ourselves. The Bank of Canada IS the government, so the government is paying itself, which gives it tonnes of flexibility.


Inflation is the scourge of the poor, since the wealthy have the resources to shift their assets into "real" goods which keep their value, while the poor find their monetary saveings, pension plans etc. are eroding in value as inflation eats away at the value of money. During the Carter presidency, inflation was tearing the heart out of the Western economy as the savings pool dried up (rich people moving assets to real goods, and what was left was loosing its value), yet unemployment was also spiralling out of control. Keynsian and Marxist economic theory wasn't any help (in fact Keynsian theory explicitly denies that inflation and unemployment can move in the same direction at the same time), it took a combination of monetarist dicipline on the part of the US Federal reserve to reign in inflation, while deep tax cuts by the Reagan administration jump started the US economy. In a seven year period, the United States increased GDP by 30%, and it can be argued that if the USSR didn't exist, government spending would not have increased at the rate it did to support the political imperative to defeat the USSR.


You talk about the "western economy." They don't need to act globally. There are differences. The "economy" improving in the U.S. often accompanies rising debts or rising unemplyment and income gaps.

Keynesian argued that tax cuts and public spending could stimulate an economy--that was ideological, it doesn't always make a difference.

Reaganomics argues that tax cuts AND cuts to public spending will stimulate an economy. For who?

Marxist is a grey term.


Regarding the U.S. federal reserve, they're not exactly like the Bank of Canada, they're a cartel of private banks.....the Bank of Canada is a crown corporation....the U.S. federal reserve is not:

www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/3/powerfortress.htm

www.wizardsofmoney.org

Short summary, tax cuts stimulate the economy and increase overall wealth. Today, the same thing is happening, as tax cuts and eliminating double taxation is propelling the US to an annual 5% increase in GDP (which vastly increase American wealth and power over the Bush administration.se a compound interest table to figure out why), while bringing unemployment to the lowest figure in the industral world.

Cutting taxes for the poor would be a good idea, but tax-cuts in Canada and the U.S. means tax cuts for billionaries, and that means the only thing that will be stimulated will be their offshore bank account.

As for subs, the public clearly does not want to increase Defense spending. With a $9 billion dollar surplus being posted this year alone, there is enough government money to buy almost any defense system we could desire, but no will to spend it that way. I would argue that the best thing to do in this situation is to reduce taxes by $9 billion, and let economic growth power increased Defense expenditures (1.1% of a growing economy is an increase in real terms).

Economic growth is not possible with growing foreign ownership, unemplyment. Only tax cuts for the poor would help, because the rich don't spend most of their money, they horde it.

I never said the public wanted subs badly--I said we could easily afford them, which we could if we abandoned what John Ralston Saul refers to as the familiar "Laissez-faire" economics of the pre-depression era, from the 19th century to the 1930s.


Canada had its most prosperous period post world war II, when we regulated our banking system more. We built our trans-Canada highway, subway lines, financed a big military, health care with no problems, the St. Lawrence Seaway, Expo '67, etcettera. Now, we produce wealth more efficiently, but have growing gap in real income, and are told we "can't afford anything," we have to "pay down the deficit and cut spending" only a fraction of which is due to spending, the rest debt-payments to private banks.


Here is a great essay by John Ralston Saul on globalism, and the awful lassiez-faire liberalism that goes with it:

www.cryptogon.com/docs/theendofglobalism.html

This is still the best site I've found on alternative economics, and can explain things much better than I can--Paul Hellyer's baby, yeah the guy who unified our armed forces:

www.comer.org
 
Disillusioned said:
Economic growth is not possible with growing foreign ownership, unemplyment. Only tax cuts for the poor would help, because the rich don't spend most of their money, they horde it.
Damn rich, keeping thier money under thier mattresses.  No wait . . . some invest thier money and stimulate economic activity?  Who would have guessed.

Disillusioned said:
Canada had its most prosperous period post world war II, when we regulated our banking system more.
And the Keynesian economics that allowed for that boom never let us down, except maybe in the 70's and 80's when neo-liberal economics seemed to even things out.
 
Disillusioned:

I still can't figure out why you are here.   Do you want to contribue anything to this Army forum, or are you just going to keep on pimping your fringe sites.
 
Disillusioned:

Did you or a member of your family build your own home? Did you or a member of your family grow your own food? Knit your own clothes? If not why? Wouldn't those resources that you spend to purchase these items be better spent if kept within your family?

???
 
MCG said:
darn rich, keeping thier money under thier mattresses.   No wait . . . some invest thier money and stimulate economic activity?   Who would have guessed.

And the Keynesian economics that allowed for that boom never let us down, except maybe in the 70's and 80's when neo-liberal economics seemed to even things out.


The rich don't invest money in our economy, our foreign investment is mostly resource-company takeovers, well over 10,000 since the FTA was signed. (even Tim Horton's)

As for economics, they will never work the way they are designed. The debt was designed so we wouldn't be able to pay it off.....that's why at 4% interest on 540 billion long-term debt, even after reducing it from 570+ billion, if we used our entire 9 billion surplus to pay down the debt--we'd still pay 24 billion interest--roughly 4% of 540 billion....see, it's not designed for us, as our cities and military crumble.
 
Infanteer said:
Disillusioned:

I still can't figure out why you are here.  Do you want to contribue anything to this Army forum, or are you just going to keep on pimping your fringe sites.


www.comer.org is not a fringe site--Paul Hellyer is well-known militarily I assume you know, and he also has written many books on economics.


That being said, you won't find the truth on a bank web site.


Except the Bank of Canada web site:

The Bank of Canada was created to be the sole issuer of bank notes and to facilitate management of the country's financial system.
Having an independent monetary institution allows for the separation of the power to spend money from the power to create money.

Separating the central bank from the political process enables it to adopt the medium- and long-term perspectives essential to conducting effective monetary policy.



See, our monetary policy is being set by David Dodge, much like John Crow--who was from the IMF.


If politics is not connected to money, we won't be able to afford anything.

www.bankofcanada.ca/en/faq.htm#3



The bank also answers why we don't stimply "print more money," (becuase our dollar would lost its value) but they don't explain that is you increase the percentage of money controlled by the Bank of Canada, you will have tonnes of flexibility to fund capital projects like infrastructure and military procuring, as well as social programs.

Why not print more money?

Because doing so would reduce the value of our money, raise interest rates and typically undermine the growth of the economy â ” the exact opposite of our goals.
If the Bank were to print money to repay the national debt or to finance government programs, it would be adding greatly to the amount of money in circulation. This would encourage people to spend and borrow more, and the economy would receive a temporary boost. But overall demand for goods and services would grow faster than the economy's ability to produce, and this would inevitably lead to higher inflation.



www.bankofcanada.ca/en/faq.htm#3
 
DJL said:
Disillusioned:

Did you or a member of your family build your own home? Did you or a member of your family grow your own food? Knit your own clothes? If not why? Wouldn't those resources that you spend to purchase these items be better spent if kept within your family?

???


Hi DJL. I found that a bit confusing too. It wasn't my quote. I think the person was trying to say that Canada doesn't always have to make everything itself, because families buy things, they don't make everything themselves.
 
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