Soldiers serving outside the wire are asking for more money

[armyvern]

I "heard" that if one were to disconnect the battery on, say, a UN Toyota 4Runner, the tracking system's memory would be erased.  With a blank system, no record of alleged malfeasance could be proven if and when the Speeding Inquisition attempted to read the vehicle's movement record.

So I heard...  >

Yes, my trucker roomie decided to inform me of that bit of critical info after my speeding ticket. To save me time in disconnecting batteries after that (and the beers that I made her buy me to make up for her 'oversight'), she ensured that I always got the good 4 runner -- that being one without the tracking system. I never got another ticket again, but wouldn't have gotten another one anyways as I didn't speed after that.  

 

[X-mo-1979]

Maybe EMAA and SAS can hook up together and calculate it.  ;D


I'm gonna step out of this one as I agree with troops outside the wire getting more pay,but don't see how it would be a huge admin burden.

PER point:Admin=developing ;D

 

[rambo123]

There is got to be a way that they know who is serving inside and out side the wire, there are lists somewhere who is on the mission element and who is on the base defence side of the house. I agree that no matter where you are in afghanistan it is dangerous, but there should be a way that the members who are in combat outside the wire should be paid more danger pay.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

This is an interesting discussion.

The issue was brought up in our task force (1-07) before we deployed in Jan 07 - by guys that had already been there, so we were aware of it ahead of time. Sometime before we left, the CDS came to us in Gagetown and had this big presentation as I suspect he does for every bg before they head over.
Anyway, the relevance of that to this discussion is, he was talking about different kinds of badges or insignias and things to represent things you may have done on tour - for example like a combat badge or something.

Now while this doesn't really fix the pay problem, it could definately soothe alot of the troops that were subjected to the terrors of IEDs regularly and hunting Talib fighters in close quarter grape fields etc. Some recognition for what they had done - and while some may cry that just stretches the gap between the "us and them" problem - but isnt it true? These guys go out and fight the war with their bare hands and suffer through alot of things that anyone who has been there, I don't need to go into details over what im talking about; is it that wrong to even award them with a simple badge or something?

the KAFers can complain, but in the end , these are still the facts: A) they still got paid the same for being in Afghanistan, and B) they were not combat troops and IMHO (no offense to any of them) do not deserve to be recognized in the same light as the guys that are.

Not to start a shoving match with anyone but let's be honest: this isn't about my or anyone's ego, we all realize that the folks working in KAF do long hours and work hard to support us out in the field - but combat is combat and there is no middle ground. It's the least that could be done to show some honor to our fighting men/women.

Finally, personally I don't beleive that any kind of ammendment to pay or anything stated above is even necessary - but if it had to be done and I had a say in it for some reason, I would suggest an alternative like I talked about above - however

If we truly are an army of professionals then we all know who we are and what we did overseas and no amount of money or medals and badges is going to change that. I know what I did when I was there and I don't feel the need to display it or receive extra money or extra commendations for doing the job I had already agreed upon and signed up to do and no one can now ever take that experience or pride away from me.

 

[31C]

Hmmm I think this is about greed and the age old us and them. There has always been a REMF's around, so take your hazard pay, but lets not get to crazy about subjecting ops to a stuplifying catorization process. There are always troops screaming for more money, of course there are, and there are always soldiers looking to stand out from the guy in another spot. Let's call it as it is then.

Besides the premise of more pay means you have to quantify how much. If you give them an extra 100 per month does that address the disparity in living conditions? Or is exposure to risk? I don't think there is a way to answer the questions to the deltail required to address what I think is really driving the issue. Those in tough spots resenting those they think are not.

Those that face the enemy in all its forms should be given the respect and acknowledgemt deserved but not at the expense of the colective good. I agree with the sentiments that this issue is devisive and not in the best interest of the CF.

 

[Good2Golf]

31C, there's no need to be derogatory about combat service support folks. (re: your acronym)

The Milnet.ca Staff

 

[31C]

Don't be over sensitive, the term to my understanding covers all shapes and sizes and trades, and it is the language soldiers have used for a long time. Combat arms staffers can be described this way, and people from the supporting arms can be in the mix up front. I think most understand this. I ended my carreer as a supporting arm so I think I can say this. It just goes to the point that these subjective perspectives taints this debate about additional pay to the point it is unintelligible. There are lots of examples where the term is used by troops to describe their own HQ staff in their own trade.

It is this oversensitve stuff that I think rubs guys out on the line the wrong way. Helps perpetuate the us and them thing.

Why do I have to explain this....scary.

I think it is your corrective reply that could actually lend insult from my comment. Let me be clear the acronym does not mean what you think it does.


Notice i didn't use the term again..... ;D

 

[George Wallace]

Now, not one to not want more money myself, I do wonder why this is coming up.  While on Tour they are getting Danger Pay ( at the highest rate, if I am correct), Foreign Service Allowances, as well as everything being Tax Free.  The whole country is a "War Zone" and the appearances of "safety" shouldn't mean that some are more safe than others.  I will not argue the fact that some are "currently" closing with and engaging the enemy more so than others, but that is always subject to change.  I just get the feeling that a few, a very vocal minority, just can't get enough benefits to meet their expectations and egos.  Would there ever be enough to satisfy those few mouthpieces who constantly raise these issues?

 

[Good2Golf]

Don't be over sensitive, the term to my understanding covers all shapes and sizes and trades, and it is the language soldiers have used for a long time. Combat arms staffers can be described this way, and people from the supporting arms can be in the mix up front. I think most understand this. I ended my carreer as a supporting arm so I think I can say this. It just goes to the point that these subjective perspectives taints this debate about additional pay to the point it is unintelligible. There are lots of examples where the term is used by troops to describe their own HQ staff in their own trade.

It is this oversensitve stuff that I think rubs guys out on the line the wrong way. Helps perpetuate the us and them thing.

Why do I have to explain this....scary.

I think it is your corrective reply that could actually lend insult from my comment. Let me be clear the acronym does not mean what you think it does.


Notice i didn't use the term again..... ;D

31C, your understanding is not consistent with the majority's understanding.  REMF means only one thing.  It is not a term of collegial endearment.  It does not refer to the F or A1/A2 echelons.  Furthermore, finishing your career in the EME branch does not entitle you to say that using the term REMF is justified, or appropriate.

That you state that my oversensitive / corrective action to your use of the term only lends insult, is thin at best.  To also state that it is things like my reaction that "rub guys out on the line" the wrong way, and that it "helps perpetuate the us and them thing" (vice your using the term) is disingenuous.  Are you actually saying that your referring to REMFs is innocent, and my correction is what perpetuates the "us and them" thing?

To have used the term REMF in more of a jovial, friendly sparring mode would have been one thing, but to try and defend what you said and then make it seem like the DS response to what others clearly understand to be a derogatory term is what was inappropriate...that's out of line.

Warning stands.

The Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Zoomie]

I can't believe that this topic has generated over 4 pages of text!

What ever happened to just doing your duty and being thankful that you are getting paid decently and have excellent benefits.

There are numerous trades in the CF that daily face greater peril <in Canada>  than being outside the wire at KAF and they don't get paid extra.

In the end - if the whining continues, I see a reduction in HA being imposed on those living in KAF and no change at all for those outside the wire.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Now, not one to not want more money myself, I do wonder why this is coming up.  While on Tour they are getting Danger Pay ( at the highest rate, if I am correct), Foreign Service Allowances, as well as everything being Tax Free.  The whole country is a "War Zone" and the appearances of "safety" shouldn't mean that some are more safe than others.  I will not argue the fact that some are "currently" closing with and engaging the enemy more so than others, but that is always subject to change.  I just get the feeling that a few, a very vocal minority, just can't get enough benefits to meet their expectations and egos.   Would there ever be enough to satisfy those few mouthpieces who constantly raise these issues?

As with you George I would love to get any extra $.

However it all boil's down to the certain trades who go out live in the desert for 6 months only to see KAF on HLTA,injured,or as a R&R in some cases.Had a friend telling me about being in the phone booths in KAF and listen to some guy telling his wife about a rocket that hit the camp and how scary it was.Never mind the rocket was 3 km away,and he may not have even saw it.And here he is sitting in the booth next to him after 4 months of being mortared constant,and having multiple people in his patrol killed,recovering from injury himself.He just sat there in disbelief.

Let's face it while the threat is there a clerk stationed at KAF can pretty well ensure he/she will be coming home.And infanteer,MSE Op on convoy's ain't too sure.

Take a look around at the loss's we have taken.Look at their trades.

There is a us and them and always was.However people are starting to look at Joe RMS clerk sitting in KAF getting paid the same as he is when he's the one out actually earning the hardship pay.Makes you think about WTF your doing this for the same pay.

Combat troops do deserve distinction,either the CIB (another discussion) or some kind of benefit. And seem we all like it money sounds good.
Our Snr NCO's in OUR combat trades should be fighting for a us and them mentality.It brings pride and esprit de corp.Maybe that's the problem and why soldiers are complaining for the money.Maybe if there was an ACCEPTED us and them mentality it would provide enough pride in ones job,to not ENVY the "other guy".

Either way I'm glad I am where I am.
At least I know what I do.And I know what the other guy does.Thats good enough for me.

 

[X-mo-1979]

There are numerous trades in the CF that daily face greater peril <in Canada>  than being outside the wire at KAF and they don't get paid extra.

Please tell me who cause I really can't think of it.Elaborate?

 

[TheHead]

I can't believe that this topic has generated over 4 pages of text!

What ever happened to just doing your duty and being thankful that you are getting paid decently and have excellent benefits.

There are numerous trades in the CF that daily face greater peril <in Canada>  than being outside the wire at KAF and they don't get paid extra.

In the end - if the whining continues, I see a reduction in HA being imposed on those living in KAF and no change at all for those outside the wire.

Greater peril in Canada than outside the wire in Canada.  Are you delusional?

You're telling me that anyone who steps outside that gate, endures ambushes, IEDs, Mortar Attacks, Rocket Attacks, Suicide Bombers, the god awful drivers and an Enemy activley looking to kill those soldiers is safer than some trades in Canada?  Wow.......

Also how is asking for a higher allowance whining?  It's a valid concern.  Soldiers outside the wire want a higher hardship allowance because they live in shitty conditions compared to their brothers and sisters on KAF, they live harder lifestyles hence HARDSHIP allowance.  Comparing a soldier who lives on KAF for all 7 months to one who lives outside the wire for 7 months is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes they both do their job, serve Canada and Afghanistan proudly and professionaly but there is a HUGE difference in lifestyle.

 

[benny88]

Our Snr NCO's in OUR combat trades should be fighting for a us and them mentality.It brings pride and esprit de corp.Maybe that's the problem and why soldiers are complaining for the money.

  When I read this sentence, I heartily disagreed. There's nothing wrong with having pride in your trade/unit, but I think the CF should do its best to promote pride and espirit de corps across the whole spectrum of trades.

Maybe if there was an ACCEPTED us and them mentality it would provide enough pride in ones job,to not ENVY the "other guy".

   This, however, made me think. Good point.


  Personally, I would have no problem with people outside the wire recieving a decoration, or even some monetary compensation. But I don't think we should actively TRY for an "us and them" mentality.

 

[George Wallace]

X-mo-1979

What I am saying, is the whole country is a War Zone.  Yes, at the moment that clerk in KAF can more or less "sleep safe at night", but that can change at any time.  Years ago, a bus load of German soldiers was blown up as they were heading to the airport at the end of their Tour.  Were all these guys who spent their time outside the wire?  How about the one lucky rocket strike that hit the canteen and put shrapnel into the heart of the MBdr from 30 Fd in Ottawa.  Was he outside the wire when that happened?  Going way back to the days of the Russians.  Were their clerks safe inside the wire?  

In war, the situation can change in an instance.  What some are "whining about" is that at this exact moment they feel entitled to something more, because at this exact moment, someone else serving in a War Zone is in a "safer" place due to circumstances outside of their control.  

I don't want to belittle anyone's role.  How much respect or thought do we pay to the unsung heroes in the background who are keeping the Big Green Machine on the Track?  The guys pumping the fuel.  The guys providing overwatch with the UAVs.  The guys loading the ammo, fuel, rats, etc. on the flightlines.  The guys doling out the clean clothes and boots.  The ROPWL guys.  The list goes on.  What glory do they get.  There are hundreds required to back each individual in the front lines.  

I'm just wondering where the silver platter is.  

 

[TheHead]

It's Hardship allowance though we're talking about George, that is the reason we get max Danger pay correct?  Yes you have a chance of getting killed on KAF every soldier who steps foot in Afghanistan does, I'll never undermine how dangerous ALL trades jobs are, BUT there is a distinct difference in how the soldiers outside the wire and inside live.  I've lived both.

 

[CDNBlackhawk]

I can't believe that this topic has generated over 4 pages of text!

What ever happened to just doing your duty and being thankful that you are getting paid decently and have excellent benefits.

There are numerous trades in the CF that daily face greater peril <in Canada>  than being outside the wire at KAF and they don't get paid extra.

In the end - if the whining continues, I see a reduction in HA being imposed on those living in KAF and no change at all for those outside the wire.

First off, its easy for you to say that we get paid decent to be outside the wire, when your a captain and probably will never go outside the wire. I think its ridiculous  that a combat  soldier fighting "outside" the wire is getting paid exactly the same  as someone who never ever leaves KAF.

Secondly, How about start naming these numerous trades that are so much more dangerous then serving outside the wire. Because Last time i checked, Soldiers Serving in Canada don't have to worry about Suicide Bombs, IEDS, Getting Shot at, Mortars Landing on them, Random rocket attacks, Ambush's... ETC

 

[George Wallace]

Well guys.  I guess my sense of Honour, Duty and Service is a lot different from yours. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Folks, this discussion is going nowhere and only serving to invite more aggressive postings.  It's locked until further official information (or related news stories) is available at which time the thread will be reopened for continuation with that new data.

Milnet.ca Staff