Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization

[dangerboy]

New dress regs even list out the requirements for COTS chest rigs etc "until the next generation system can be procured by the CAF"

Can you post that link? The dress regulations I see for the Army (Canadian Army Dress Instructions - Canada.ca) only says this about chest rigs:

6. Non-issued clothing/equipment items, e.g.: chest rigs, may be worn while on OUTCAN deployments, under the authority of the highest ranking Commander in place. Items shall not endanger safety and/or mission requirements.

 

[MilEME09]

Can you post that link? The dress regulations I see for the Army (Canadian Army Dress Instructions - Canada.ca) only says this about chest rigs:

I'll have to find it again but here's a screen shot I took

 

[markppcli]

I'll have to find it again but here's a screen shot I took

View attachment 85630

That looks more like a unit or formation policy.

 

[FJAG]

Bah. You young whipper-snappers and all your fancy Gucci gear and your bitching and whining.

Back in the days when we wore onions on our belts - because that was the style at the time - a small pack, large pack, poncho roll and two Bren magazine pouches was all we ever needed.

And we loved it!

 

[KevinB]

Back to my rant about gear...

It is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, as when I first joined, I was issued the 1951 pattern webbing (lucky me), as the '64 pattern was fucking terrible (curious if they dug the guy who did that up so he could fuckup the Tac Vest), and there wasn't enough '82 pattern to go around (which was also terrible executed with the velcro and the plastic hooks).

One example of better than plain Jane Cordura Nylon is BlueForce Gear's Ultra Comp - they license it to a lot of other gear companies FWIW.

Our Mission at Blue Force Gear

To provide our customers with professional-grade gear and life accessories which exhibit our total commitment...

www.blueforcegear.com

 

[MilEME09]

That looks more like a unit or formation policy.

3 div to be exact

 

[markppcli]

3 div to be exact

No not dress regs then.

Back to my rant about gear...

It is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, as when I first joined, I was issued the 1951 pattern webbing (lucky me), as the '64 pattern was fucking terrible (curious if they dug the guy who did that up so he could fuckup the Tac Vest), and there wasn't enough '82 pattern to go around (which was also terrible executed with the velcro and the plastic hooks).

One example of better than plain Jane Cordura Nylon is BlueForce Gear's Ultra Comp - they license it to a lot of other gear companies FWIW.

Our Mission at Blue Force Gear

To provide our customers with professional-grade gear and life accessories which exhibit our total commitment...

www.blueforcegear.com

I have been part of two tac vest replacement trials, and seen each project die. It was all but rejected at birth, and some how has continued for twenty years.

 

[Kilted]

No not dress regs then.



I have been part of two tac vest replacement trials, and seen each project die. It was all but rejected at birth, and some how has continued for twenty years.

I remember seeing a replacement version in 2010 that was stacked so high in pouches that you never would have been able to fire in the prone position. I mentioned this and was told by the logistics Sgt showing them off that soldiers don't go in the prone anymore.

 

[Castus]

No not dress regs then.



I have been part of two tac vest replacement trials, and seen each project die. It was all but rejected at birth, and some how has continued for twenty years.

That's grim. How were they killed? Lack of funding, or outright rejection?

 

[dapaterson]

Funding is a convenient boogeyman, but often Army projects wither on the vine as successive APS shifts those working on the project and shift commanders and their desires and priorities.

The Army is very good at not having a consistent vision survive beyond a change of command.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I remember seeing a replacement version in 2010 that was stacked so high in pouches that you never would have been able to fire in the prone position. I mentioned this and was told by the logistics Sgt showing them off that soldiers don't go in the prone anymore.

And no one in their right mind would make a tactical vest with a zipper down the front that clogs with dirt when you go prone like, you know, anyone in contact or on patrol etc, right?

Oh wait, what's this?

 

[FJAG]

as the '64 pattern was fucking terrible (curious if they dug the guy who did that up so he could fuckup the Tac Vest)

You have to remember this about the 64 pattern webbing. 1964 is also when Canada acquired the M113 APC. The concept behind the 64 pattern webbing was that troops would generally not be far from their APC and there was little need for serious load bearing equipment. Rather, the 64 pattern webbing was designed to be minimalistic, with no gear on the back which allowed easy seating in and exit and entry out of and into the APC. That went to the chest rig for 4 x C2 magazines and the chest and side pocket for 6 x C1 magazines (now those magazine pockets were a class of torture device beyond parallel. We didn't need that many magazines because we were better shots in those days with bullets that carried a punch so didn't need as many ) We were light and agile in those days unburdened by body armour and tac vests and 50 lbs of extra gear. We could even fire from the prone position

Yes, there was also a great big f'in' 64 pattern cargo pack for lugging around the kitchen sink and sleeping bag for those rare occasions where one had to leave the comfort of their track for extended periods (previously shared ancient photo below) Or for those unfortunate light units without their own track.


I don't wax nostalgic for the 51 pattern webbing with the exception of the Bren magazine pouches. They held more beer cans than the mess tin carrier. Hardly anyone carried mess tins - we had Melmac. The worst thing I can say about the 64 pattern was that the Velcro loops holding the yoke and mess tin carrier and canteen carrier tended to slip around a bit but you could fix that with a bit of gun tape or a strong needle and a bit of sturdy thread.

Yeah. I'll give you that the 64 pattern webbing wasn't good for a lot of things for the serious dismounted folks, but for those of us who were wedded to the comfort of our tracks (or even 3/4 ton trucks) it was light, simple, comfortable (especially inside a vehicle) and did what it was principally designed for.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I wore one of these on more than one tour, bought 2nd hand off of one of the people we were RIPing.

Cheap, durable, easy to wear over body armour, no stupid zippers, enough room for (more than 4) mags, and a radio. Paired with a (personally purchased) day pack, it was good for most things we had to do in a rural or urban environment.

Despite the 'made famous by Bravo Two Zero' claims, alot of us 'less specials' wore them too

M170 Classic Chest Rig - British DPM

This Arktis M170 Classic chest rig was made famous during the first Gulf War by British forces. Since then it has also made famous by use with SAS's Bravo Two Zero and Special Forces operating in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a classic, simple, & durable design. Adjustable 'X' Harness 3x Cinch...

store.arktis.co.uk

 

[dimsum]

You have to remember this about the 64 pattern webbing. 1964 is also when Canada acquired the M113 APC. The concept behind the 64 pattern webbing was that troops would generally not be far from their APC and there was little need for serious load bearing equipment. Rather, the 64 pattern webbing was designed to be minimalistic, with no gear on the back which allowed easy seating in and exit and entry out of and into the APC. That went to the chest rig for 4 x C2 magazines and the chest and side pocket for 6 x C1 magazines (now those magazine pockets were a class of torture device beyond parallel. We didn't need that many magazines because we were better shots in those days with bullets that carried a punch so didn't need as many ) We were light and agile in those days unburdened by body armour and tac vests and 50 lbs of extra gear. We could even fire from the prone position

Yes, there was also a great big f'in' 64 pattern cargo pack for lugging around the kitchen sink and sleeping bag for those rare occasions where one had to leave the comfort of their track for extended periods (previously shared ancient photo below) Or for those unfortunate light units without their own track.
View attachment 85648

I don't wax nostalgic for the 51 pattern webbing with the exception of the Bren magazine pouches. They held more beer cans than the mess tin carrier. Hardly anyone carried mess tins - we had Melmac. The worst thing I can say about the 64 pattern was that the Velcro loops holding the yoke and mess tin carrier and canteen carrier tended to slip around a bit but you could fix that with a bit of gun tape or a strong needle and a bit of sturdy thread.

Yeah. I'll give you that the 64 pattern webbing wasn't good for a lot of things for the serious dismounted folks, but for those of us who were wedded to the comfort of our tracks (or even 3/4 ton trucks) it was light, simple, comfortable (especially inside a vehicle) and did what it was principally designed for.

Huh. Almost like things don’t work as well when used in situations they weren’t designed for…

 

[markppcli]

That's grim. How were they killed? Lack of funding, or outright rejection?

While @dapaterson is generally correct the modular fighting rig project died in 2014 when the Harper govt cut budgets. ISSP was supposed to deliver a modular load bearing vest, so it was a “merger.” ISSP has since divorced itself, quite rightly, of that requirement to deliver that kit.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You have to remember this about the 64 pattern webbing. 1964 is also when Canada acquired the M113 APC. The concept behind the 64 pattern webbing was that troops would generally not be far from their APC and there was little need for serious load bearing equipment. Rather, the 64 pattern webbing was designed to be minimalistic, with no gear on the back which allowed easy seating in and exit and entry out of and into the APC. That went to the chest rig for 4 x C2 magazines and the chest and side pocket for 6 x C1 magazines (now those magazine pockets were a class of torture device beyond parallel. We didn't need that many magazines because we were better shots in those days with bullets that carried a punch so didn't need as many ) We were light and agile in those days unburdened by body armour and tac vests and 50 lbs of extra gear. We could even fire from the prone position

Yes, there was also a great big f'in' 64 pattern cargo pack for lugging around the kitchen sink and sleeping bag for those rare occasions where one had to leave the comfort of their track for extended periods (previously shared ancient photo below) Or for those unfortunate light units without their own track.
View attachment 85648

I don't wax nostalgic for the 51 pattern webbing with the exception of the Bren magazine pouches. They held more beer cans than the mess tin carrier. Hardly anyone carried mess tins - we had Melmac. The worst thing I can say about the 64 pattern was that the Velcro loops holding the yoke and mess tin carrier and canteen carrier tended to slip around a bit but you could fix that with a bit of gun tape or a strong needle and a bit of sturdy thread.

Yeah. I'll give you that the 64 pattern webbing wasn't good for a lot of things for the serious dismounted folks, but for those of us who were wedded to the comfort of our tracks (or even 3/4 ton trucks) it was light, simple, comfortable (especially inside a vehicle) and did what it was principally designed for.

I think I've said this before on here but back when we were doing work up training in Ft Irwin for TF 1-10 during town hall some general was asked a question about the tac vests and replacements and he hold us that during the current, at that times, trials going on the form that worked the best and was getting the highest praise was the 82 Pattern webbing.

When I hunt by stalking game I use South African style webbing that's dyed hunter orange. And If I could find something like the 82 Pattern I would probably take that. Defiantly not the same as an infanteer running and gunning, but still long distance movement, frequent stops, different shooting positions and carry's all I need to hunt and live for a time.

 

[KevinB]

You have to remember this about the 64 pattern webbing. 1964 is also when Canada acquired the M113 APC. The concept behind the 64 pattern webbing was that troops would generally not be far from their APC and there was little need for serious load bearing equipment. Rather, the 64 pattern webbing was designed to be minimalistic, with no gear on the back which allowed easy seating in and exit and entry out of and into the APC. That went to the chest rig for 4 x C2 magazines and the chest and side pocket for 6 x C1 magazines (now those magazine pockets were a class of torture device beyond parallel. We didn't need that many magazines because we were better shots in those days with bullets that carried a punch so didn't need as many ) We were light and agile in those days unburdened by body armour and tac vests and 50 lbs of extra gear. We could even fire from the prone position

Yes, there was also a great big f'in' 64 pattern cargo pack for lugging around the kitchen sink and sleeping bag for those rare occasions where one had to leave the comfort of their track for extended periods (previously shared ancient photo below) Or for those unfortunate light units without their own track.
View attachment 85648

I don't wax nostalgic for the 51 pattern webbing with the exception of the Bren magazine pouches. They held more beer cans than the mess tin carrier. Hardly anyone carried mess tins - we had Melmac. The worst thing I can say about the 64 pattern was that the Velcro loops holding the yoke and mess tin carrier and canteen carrier tended to slip around a bit but you could fix that with a bit of gun tape or a strong needle and a bit of sturdy thread.

Yeah. I'll give you that the 64 pattern webbing wasn't good for a lot of things for the serious dismounted folks, but for those of us who were wedded to the comfort of our tracks (or even 3/4 ton trucks) it was light, simple, comfortable (especially inside a vehicle) and did what it was principally designed for.

You bring up a key aspect that the CA has missed for years. Equipment bought for one role, that is pressed to others.

Even considering that one may be generous and give the ‘64 pattern webbing a pass for Mech ops, outside Germany, the rest of the CA was either Light or only partially Mech.


The ‘82 pattern webbing was inexcusable as it was just a different take on the ‘64.
The grommet/hook attachment method was brain dead as fuck. As the plastic hooks constantly sheared - and grommets ripped out making the belt N/S. Plus the tab method of closure - sure the nylon tabs where robust enough (albiet small and awkward) but the plastic loop again cracked and made the pouch N/S

The coat hanger frame ruck was another travesty from the ‘82 pattern project.

 

[dapaterson]

While @dapaterson is generally correct the modular fighting rig project died in 2014 when the Harper govt cut budgets. ISSP was supposed to deliver a modular load bearing vest, so it was a “merger.” ISSP has since divorced itself, quite rightly, of that requirement to deliver that kit.

The Army, when faced with the need to prioritize their acquisitions, chose to abandon the MFR.

We do still have a mountaineering centre of excellence in (checks notes) Trenton that also gives parachute training for company organizations without a viable, doctrinal role. Because the Army has priorities.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Army, when faced with the need to prioritize their acquisitions, chose to abandon the MFR.

We do still have a mountaineering centre of excellence in (checks notes) Trenton that also gives parachute training for company organizations without a viable, doctrinal role. Because the Army has priorities.

It's only a 35 hour drive to the mountains though... if you scoot through the US

Trenton to Canmore

www.google.com

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's only a 35 hour drive to the mountains though... if you scoot through the US

Trenton to Canmore

www.google.com

I mean the Yanks have the 10th Mountain Division a couple hours drive from Ottawa in Fort Drum. Lots of mountains in upper New York state lol.