Signing Bonus - Engineering Officers

[rceme_rat]

Most of you will have seen the announcement that newly recruited enginneering officers (Engineers, Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, Sigs, and 3 others) will receive a $40,000 signing bonus payable in two instalments.

The bonus is not available to recruits whose engineering education was subsidized by the CF.

My rhetorical question is: why not?

If you are attempting to fill ranks of seriously understaffed MOCs, why not pay the bonus to a former ROTP officer? Why only to a DEO? Indeed, why not specify a preference for former ROTP officers who will not require the full training that a new recruit will - saving both money and time to practical employment?

Looks like someone didn‘t want to risk the political flak of recruiting (and paying) someone whose education had been paid by the CF, and who was then bought out by the CF under FRP.

I would have hoped that the basic concept of sunk costs would be recognized by those in the know - and subsidized education is a sunk cost. I guess I was hoping for too much.

 

[Yard Ape]

This bonous will not be available to any reservists who recieved the up to $2000 a year education subsidy. It does not even matter if that member has already fullfilled the one year no NES commitment required. Again, as pointed out by rceme_rat, even if the individual did not go through RESO as an Engineer office the CF could save money if the person could only write of phase 1. Infantry and other combat arms officers would be qualified up to Ph II, and any Engineer Officers would be qualified up to Ph III. For the two to three years it would take to qualify a civi to this level, the CF would actualy be saving money by offering it to previously subsidiesed members.

Think of the alternative. The member could release from the reserves for and the money invested in that training is lost. Don‘t think newly graduated Engineers won‘t leave thier reserve units? Think again, they will move to where the money is (even if there are no reserves in the area) and for them, the money is not in the regular force.

 

[Yard Ape]

Engineering Officer Recruitment Allowance
DND Press Release, 12 February, 2002

OTTAWA - The Canadian Forces (CF) has been actively engaged in a three-year recruiting program that began 1 April 2001. While this program has many components, developing new and innovative attraction tools is central. On 7 February 2002 Treasury Board approved a $40,000 recruitment allowance for applicants to six Regular Force engineering occupations that are experiencing significant shortages of personnel. Its goal is to increase the enrolment of engineering officer applicants who possess engineering or specific science degrees.

The allowance came into effect on 8 February 2002 and has been under development for several months.

The Conference Board of Canada recently reported that more than 75% of organizations in 2001 reported difficulties in recruitment and/or retention for key positions, and that attracting engineers is among the greatest challenges. The allowance will increase the CF‘s ability to compete in the Canadian labour market for these highly desirable individuals.

The CF pays for members‘ undergraduate degrees through the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) at either Royal Military College or civilian universities. However, the number of engineering graduates from ROTP is not sufficient to meet the shortfall of engineering officers. The CF estimates that it will need to recruit approximately 600 new engineers by 31 March 2006. It is imperative, therefore, that the CF increase its enrolment of applicants who already possess undergraduate engineering and science degrees. This will alleviate personnel shortages, reduce the time required to produce qualified engineering officers and help ensure that operational effectiveness is not compromised.

Costs
It is estimated that the costs until 31 March 2006 will be $30.56 million, from funds currently allocated to National Defence.

Eligibility Criteria
The $40,000 allowance will be payable to applicants who possess specific engineering or science degrees who enrol in one of six Regular Force engineering officer occupations.

Four categories of people will be eligible for the allowance:

:bullet: Direct entry applicants who possess a relevant engineering or specific science degree
:bullet: Reserve Force members with relevant degrees who transfer into Regular Force engineering officer occupations
:bullet: Non-commissioned members who possess relevant degrees who are granted commissions and assigned to Regular Force engineering occupations
:bullet: Former members with relevant degrees who re-enrol if they left the Regular Force or transferred to the Reserve Force before 7 February 2002.

Applicants must not have received direct financial assistance, subsidization or funding from the Canadian Forces to help them attain their engineering or science degrees.

All successful applicants must also meet the general eligibility requirements for enrolment into the Canadian Forces, including the following:

- be a Canadian citizen
- be of good character (determined through, for example, credit and criminal record checks)
- meet the minimum age requirement for the entry plan
- meet all medical and enrolment standards
- successfully complete the pre-enrolment fitness evaluation

Obligatory Service and Payment Procedures
Officers who receive the allowance must make a commitment to serve for four years in the Regular Force from the date of enrolment or transfer or - in the case of former non-commissioned members - from the date they were commissioned as officers.

The allowances are subject to income tax, Canadian Pension Plan deductions and Employment insurance deductions. They are payable in two equal instalments.

The first instalment in the amount of $25,000 will occur when engineering officers have met all the eligibility requirements. The applicants must successfully complete basic officer training or be exempt from the training.

The second installment of $15,000 will be paid on the second anniversary of the first payment. The officers must still be serving in the Regular Force in their assigned occupation or another engineering occupation.

If special or unforeseen circumstances lead to an officer‘s request for release before the completion of the obligatory service, the Chief of the Defence Staff may approve the release. Depending on the circumstances, if officers transfer to non-engineering occupations or are released for other than compassionate reasons, they will be obliged to repay all or a portion of the allowance, pro-rated according to the length of time they have served as engineers.

Eligible Degrees
Engineers
Electrical and Mechanical Engineering
Communications and Electronics Engineering
Maritime Engineering
Aerospace Engineering
Airfield Engineering

 

[PTE_Lui]

I‘m in the Communication reserve, and I‘m taking Engineering right now at U of C, and it is quite disconcerning to find that I may not be able to apply for that $40000, especially since I have been concidering applying for a commision after getting my degree and signing on with Reg Force for a few years. Thing is, when you think about it, an Engineer who graduates with a half decent GPA is ALMOST guarenteed a job paying roughly $50000 a year; roughly the equvilant to a reg force Captain. My hope was that with enough time in as a reservist, (4-5 years by the time I get my degree) i could have accumulated enough qualifications (I‘d like to have completed my QL5‘s and JNCO/JLC‘s course by then) and actual time in to possibly get a commision as a Captain.

 

[Spr Earl]

Pte Lui no harm meant ,but see in your mind you being a Capt. in the Engineer‘s, Reg. Force with only 5 yrs Reserve time.

It take a lot of ticket punch‘s to get there.
Meaning all the right course‘s and friend‘s up there!

No harm meant.

 

[McG]

Pte_Lui, junior Sgt will only commision to Lt.

I‘m more intrested in the fact that you may be left out by this recruiting program. I personaly know atleast 5 people who are excluded because they took advantage of the reserve reimbursment program. Infact, there is not a single member of 31 CER that is elligable for this incentive.

Have you contracted the recruiting center about your concerns? If many intrested people turn out to be inelligable this fact will (in theory) be reported up the food chain. This would provide Ottawa with the arguments to change the program.

. . . maybe that is optimistic but it cannot hurt. Check with your friends to see if any are in the same situation as you. A larger group provides a stronger voice.

 

[PTE_Lui]

Geez; thanks guys, for shooting down my hopes of being a Captain jk; lol. But, seriously, I‘ve been considering joining reg force after getting my degree; regardless. Especially since my father shoots me down about how I‘ll never succeed as an Engineer in the real (civvy) world.

But to lay my fears to rest, what‘s life like for a reg force officer? I hear alot of mess talk about it, and it does sound appealing, especially the part about having 20 years in then retiring with a full pension. I suppose it depends alot on my situation in 4 years, but I‘d like to know if I‘m even officer material; or if officer material is even right for me.

Whatsmore, since my tuition is more or less covered, I‘m torn between the $8000 in financial assistance and the $40000 for being an Engineer; especially since I‘m not positivly sure I‘d apply for a commision.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[rceme_rat]

If it helps, think about it as $8000 less whatever taxes you pay on that $8000, and $20,000 - since you will pay around 50% of the signing bonus in tax. I doubt you‘ll pay more than $3000 on the $8000 - so now it‘s $5000 and $20,000 - or only a $15,000 difference, not $32,000. Still a good bucket of cash!

In any case, the bonus is only available now to people who are already qualified. So, if you‘re still in school, there is no choice. I guess the queston for those who took the $8000 to get their engineering degree is whether they could return it and then get the signing bonus instead!

As for your dad‘s comment - I‘ll take that as a joke, since I shudder to think people would be choosing the military since they can‘t make it on civvie street.

 

[McG]

If you commit to staying with the reserves for an additional year, the education reimbursment is tax free.

 

[PTE_Lui]

Thing is, I havn‘t applied for the financial assistance program. They said you apply for it at the end of your school year once you have proof that you‘ve succesfully completed your courses.

I suppose whatever decision I make, I‘ll make it based on my situation in 4 years. I mean, I don‘t even know what life as an officer is like, really. I‘ve wanted to be a soldier since I was a kid; and while the reserves fulfills that longing temporarily, I have the feeling I could take it a step further. I‘ve heard a little about people taking up 3-5 year contracts with reg force; can you do that as a reserve officer, or what?

 

[Brad Sallows]

It is important to remember that the current education reimbursement program for reservists is only undergoing a 4-year trial. At the end of that time it will be evaluated, and a decision will be made to continue it or not. One can not assume it will be available indefinitely, nor the same for any recruitment bonus.

 

[Ralph]

Not (if I get in) that I‘m expecting to want to leave before retirement, but what does this nine-year contract thing for officers - and if you don‘t want to stay nine years - entail? On one of the other threads, it was mentioned that the guys who get signing bonuses have to pay them back if they decide to leave early, but what about we losers with arts degrees who aren‘t getting anything extra? My first born?
Cheers,
Ralph.

 

[Tyrnagog]

The way it works for those with signing bonuses (bonii ?) is...

There is the 9 year contract and a 4 year letter of understanding. If I leave the military for any reason in the first 4 years, I have to pay back the money they gave me (as far as I undersatnd). It is like the Army is trying to pay my university bill, as though I was in the ROTP.

After that, I still have 5 years left of the regular officer contract term. That is, the 9 year regular officer contract. I can still apply to leave if I have to, but my recruiting officer said it is a lengthy process to push all of the papers. But I won‘t have to pay back any money paid to me from the signing bonus.

 

[Pondo]

Hi,

I can't seem to get a straight answer from the local recruiting centre. I have a couple degrees in engineering and am going through the application process to enter as an aerospace engineer. I've asked them if this is one of the trades that qualifies for the signing bonus but they've always avoided the topic.

Secondly, I'll be finishing my masters degree this fall and am sort of dragging my heels on the application. When is the deadline date for application to be considered for January recruitment to attend the BOTC that would be sometime around there?

Thanks

 

[DrSize]

Well for DEOs there are two intakes yearly.   One is for BOTC in January and the other is for BOTC in July??? I believe......

Depending on your RC if you wanted to get in for the BOTC in January you need to apply ASAP and everything has to be ready to go before the selection board in October...so you only have a little over 2 months to make sure all your forms, interviews, and tests have been complete

 

[rdschultz]

Thats correct, if you want to be considered for the fall DEO selection boards, you should start your application process now.  My application took about 8 weeks to go from actually applying to my file being sent for selection, so it does take time. 

The AERE trade is one that is offered the Engineering Officer recruitment allowance (in fact there is a member of these forums who was selected for the trade and will receieve it, but I'll let him explain anything he wants to about that).  I find it surprising that they won't be more direct with you.  The Captain who did my interview made a point of showing me a sheet of paper he had that specifically mentioned that AERE, CELE and SIGS (as well as EME, because I was considering that at the time) were eligible to recieve the bonus.

 

[casing]

Thanks for the partial intro, hoser.  

Regarding the signing bonus....

The CFRC should have a pile of printouts indicating which engineering occupations qualify for the $40K recruitment allowance.  The one in Calgary did, anyway.   The sheet says that there are 6 engineering occupations that qualify; however, there are actually 7 now because since that sheet was written up CELE was split into CELE (Air) and Signals Officer.

I think the likely reason they beat around the bush about the recruitment allowance is that it could potentially no longer be available by the time a potential enrollee is actually enrolled.

Regarding when you should apply....

Start the application process now.   If you happen to get placed into the pile for consideration during the Oct/Nov selection boards (for a Jan/Feb start date) and you find that you aren't ready yet, you could decline any possible offer (declining an offer has zero bearing on any future offers) and just get your application considered for the next boards (deadline around the end of April for a Sept start).   The benefit to doing this is that your file will be done and the effort required to keep it updated is minimal.   You need to understand that there are many variables that could pop up during your application process that might cause rather extensive delays.   So it is to your advantage to have your file complete as soon as possible.  

My application process took just about exactly 6 months (Dec 16 application in, Jun 19 offer officially received).   Plus another 3 months prior to dropping off my application that was dedicated to research and having my American degree undergo an international qualification assessment.   Take a look on page 7 of the Applications Process Samples thread for my entry to get a good idea of how an application process can go (has running updates).   Also, I was accepted for AERE, so if you have any specific questions, just PM me and I'll see if I can help out.

 

[Croony]

I've been searching the net for answers and the army websites aren't completely clear about this.
I want to join the army engineers thru the DEO plan and i possess all the necessary requirements (ie engineering degree, Canadian citz, etc)  Here's the kicker.  To be considered for a position, what is the minimum length of commitment (length of contractual agreement) that an enrollee must commit too.  I was told it is 9 years, this seems alittle long, is this correct?  The Army is offering $40k signing bonuses for 4 year terms to any new officer enrollee's entering an engineering position.  Why offer this bonus under a 4 year term when the minimum amount of time you must commit too to be considered as a worthy candidate for acceptance as a DEO is 9 years?  In other words, if you want to become an officer in the Canadian army, why isn't the $40 k signing bonus offered as a 9 year term since your going to be in for that long anyways?

 

[Meridian]

If I ever was instructed correctly, the term of service is better put as the military's expected commitment to you. Obviously they would prefer you stuck around for that time period as well, but you can always VR earlier.  Bonuses and education subsidies also come with their own requirements... in the case of ROTP for example, its a 5 year commitment (actually less if you do not do the full program) and you can "buyout" years if you need to leave earlier... we were told 10k/year...

But if you just go in deo... without bonus, AFAIK you have no real contractual/financial obligation to the forces beyond any other normal employment contract.


I could totally be wrong...  Basically I was told there is the "Formal way" and the "way it really works"...  But personally i'd never originally sign up for something when Im already certain I do not want to complete it....

 

[chk2fung]

I've been looking at the pay scale for officers on the dnd site and  I'm just curious as to why there's no Officer Cadet pay scale for DEO officers, ie "C"?  Am I to assume Officer Cadets under DEO receive Second Lieutenants pay? 

As an aside why do ROTP Second Lieutenants get paid more than DEO Second Lieutenants?  Is this because ROTP Second Lieutenants already have SLT and other courses completed before commissioning.  If that's the case it takes a DEO 2LT 2 incentive pay categories to have the same basic pay as a ROTP 2LT.  How long does it take to jump two pay incentive categories.  Is it the number of courses completed or is it by time in.  If its by time in, how long before getting to pay incentive category 2, and if its by courses how long would that take to equal the number of courses received by ROTP officers.

I have also been given the impression that ROTP officers do not qualify for recruitment bonuses like the $40 000 for engineers.  Does anyone have the answer to the above questions?  Thank you for your kind attention.