Should Leaders Ever Swear?

[X291R]

Going into a huge swearing binge on a regular basis - even if it makes you feel better - probably doesn't have a lot of effect on the average soldier these days in any case - they'll think you sound like another Rapper at worst.  To paraphrase (and plagarize) the old Far Side cartoon:

What you say to your soldier:  Private yer an essing pussing farking sots of hell disgrace!  I am going to wreck you effin' program Private!  You will be the sorriest most miserable effin' Private since Pontius effin' Private  er  Pilate!!!!!

What your soldier hears:  PRIVATE blah blah blah blahblah! Blah blah blah PRIVATE!!!    Blah blah blah PRIVATE blah!!!    ;D

 

[StepDad]

Last year when my stepson was at LFCA-Tc Meaford and had to drop out of his DP1 due to a serious injury and wound up back in PAT for 9 months, I had many opportunities to pick him up after dismissal at 4:00 PM =/-. There was one WO who used the "F" word every second word. As a civilian I find it unnecessary and when I asked my son about him he said, " Dad, we just learn to tune him out. He's a idiot and we do what he tells us cause we have to, not because we respect him."  An officer, even a non-com'd who can't command respect isn't worth his salt in my opinion.

 

[Lerch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFr6P2BtE3k&feature=related

 

[57Chevy]

A good one here: ;D
(From Full Metal Jacket)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU3_15ASeC8&feature=PlayList&p=C3A54E56BCF2EB62&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=49

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Ever?
Simply asking the question shows what a limp-dick ******* army we've become.

No shit.  If "ever" is the new standard, I am completely fucked.

 

[Gunner98]

Leaders are human and when a situation calls for it, he/she will show their human side by using language that everyone understands.  Profanity has its place and time, used sparingly it can motivate and show empathy.  Overuse of the same expletives can indicate a troubled mind or lack of education because you can never run out of words even if you are calling someone "every name in the book".

 

[Monsoon]

I've heard a taskforce commander jacking up subordinates over the radio. "You're really starting to f**king piss me off".
Wasn't a lot a swearing, just a few choice words thrown in his two minute rant but the effect it had was epic. He really made his intent clear and the whole net knew 'the man' wasn't happy.
Whole vehicle listening to the raido just looked at each other slack jawed.

It's called a "public rebuke". Leaders shouldn't do that either.

 

[211RadOp]

I have used the F-bomb to describe the state of some of the more technical pieces of eqpt that we use:

"The f***in' f***er is f***in' f***ed!"

 

[SeanNewman]

...they'll think you sound like another Rapper at worst.

I would agree that logically your argument makes sense because people are more exposed to swearing now, but the ground truth is that it's actually the opposite due to political correctness.

People may be used to hearing the swearing, but what they are not used to nowadays is having a jacking directed at them in terms of a personal attack.  Their parents have been nice to them, their teachers have been nice to them, etc.  Arguably, even the military instructors at St Jean are nice to them on basic.

However, once they get to BMOQ-L (CAP, Phase 2, etc) in Gagetown at the Infantry School, it is amazing how fragile they really are because they have been pussified (George Carlin quote) for so long.  It's not even a matter of being malicious like calling a fat person fat (which does not happen), but during an inspection all it takes is an Infantry Sgt to point at a candidate during an inspection and say "Your boots are f___ing junk" in a stern voice and some of the candidates just can't process that, and break down.

Is the F word needed in those cases?  Perhaps not, but in my assessment when they are used selectively they can add emphasis and put the candidate under more stress, which is a good thing.  If a future leader can not handle the stress of hearing the F word aimed at them, how are they going to handle being on the X of an ambush and fighting their way through it while inspiring others?

 

[spear]

This is how i view it:

A president,  a prime minister, or any other country's top leader, should never ever swear at the public.

However, any  high ranking officer in a military should never ever do the same thing as their commander in chief in the public.  But let them all out their frustrations if needed in front of their lower echelons and troopers, only when his troops are in disarray, or if a battle is losing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I would agree that logically your argument makes sense because people are more exposed to swearing now, but the ground truth is that it's actually the opposite due to political correctness.

People may be used to hearing the swearing, but what they are not used to nowadays is having a jacking directed at them in terms of a personal attack.  Their parents have been nice to them, their teachers have been nice to them, etc.  Arguably, even the military instructors at St Jean are nice to them on basic.

I recall having my 'face ripped off' at Sandhurst a few times (maybe deservedly so at least twice, of course  ;D) and saw hundreds of other 'jackings' delivered by the Staff there, and never recall hearing anyone swear. I would classify it as a mastery of the English language that was simply awe inspiring to watch, and which we would strive to emulate (poorly in many cases).

'Mr. Daftandbarmy, YOU ARE AN IDLE AND DIRTY LITTLE SPECIMEN, SIR!!!', when delivered at 100 decibels 2 feet from one's face by a 6ft 5in Coldstream Guards MWO - who concurrently happens to be waving his pace stick in a Dervish-like manner above his head - conveys as much -or more- shock and awe than any collection of swear words.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I swear all the time. When i am really pissed, there is no doubt about it, regardless. It doesn't lose its effect.

I can back this up!  There is never any doubt when CDN A is pissed at something/someone.  No effect lost.

 

[1feral1]

I am far from perfect when it comes to 'naughty' language, but I believe there is a time and a place for everything, but when dealing with soldiers, respect has always been a two-way street. Spouting off deliberate profuse profanity does not really do much for your image, shy of yourself being noted by others as "gee that guy sure swears alot - every 2nd word is f---!" Do I swear as a SNCO? yes 'colourfully', but not all the time. Speak to your soldiers as you would expect to be spoken to yourself, and you'll get much better results. Respect of an individual does not come with the rank, its earned.

EDITs to add 'Army indoc of fowl language'

Happy memories of a 17 yr old, home after being away for two months. Like all good Moms, they like to wash everything of yours after you've been away, even if its clean.

I was going out, could not find my jeans. I said (without thinking) to my Mum "Mum, where's my f'n jeans?" There was dead silence, and back in 1977, one did not say words like that around their Mums. I hope they still don't in 2010.
;D

 

[xo31@711ret]

I was going out, could not find my jeans. I said (without thinking) to my Mum "Mum, where's my f'n jeans?" There was dead silence, and back in 1977, one did not say words like that around their Mums. I hope they still don't in 2010.
;D

LOL! I did the same thing; Christmas of 82, first leave I had after 8 months of being away from home for the first time; barely 18. Christmas or new year's dinner, can't remember which. But what I do remember after a mouthful of turkey that 'this is fN great after some of the shit from the mess!' Ya couldn't hear a pin drop. 

 

[TimBit]

Where I work, there is one senior officer who swears all the time. Fuck this, shit that, bla bla bla. Morning briefing: "is there some fucking new shit on that fuckin ship?". You can read nothing but contempt in the eyes of the audience, INCLUDING other CF members, INCLUDING NCM`s and Cbt Arms folks. To me that means that, again, there is a time and place. During a FEX or on course or on ops, sure. In everyday life in a standard situation? You just look stupid and short on vocab.

As for this point:

However, once they get to BMOQ-L (CAP, Phase 2, etc) in Gagetown at the Infantry School, it is amazing how fragile they really are because they have been pussified (George Carlin quote) for so long.  It's not even a matter of being malicious like calling a fat person fat (which does not happen), but during an inspection all it takes is an Infantry Sgt to point at a candidate during an inspection and say "Your boots are f___ing junk" in a stern voice and some of the candidates just can't process that, and break down.

Is the F word needed in those cases?  Perhaps not, but in my assessment when they are used selectively they can add emphasis and put the candidate under more stress, which is a good thing.  If a future leader can not handle the stress of hearing the F word aimed at them, how are they going to handle being on the X of an ambush and fighting their way through it while inspiring others?

That is a very interesting point. Those of you who have read Grossman`s "On Killing" might have noticed the passages on what he terms "The Wind of Hate". In short, he notes how frequent was the thought in WWII veterans that they could not understand why the enemy hated them so much as to want to kill them. Consequently, yelling and swearing and even physical abuse served a role to "toughen up" soldiers and prepare them to confront hatred. I think if as an infanteer or tanker you can`t take tabarnac, estie, colisse and the f, c and s words, you`re in a for rough awakening when the other guy tries to mow you down with a machine gun.

 

[TimBit]

By the way, I realized I actually used some swear words in my previous postings, which I believe were corrected by the mods. Thank you for that and apologies, I forgot to "sanitize" my reporting of said words.

 

[Brutus]

Well, speaking on the CF leadership context, I really think it depends, but I will agree that swearing is generally overdone.

If you are correcting unacceptable behaviour of a subordinate, I think it's best to avoid it. I struggle with this myself as an NCO, and find that if I can keep my voice calm, I tend to not swear, and the message seems to actually get through a little more starkly. I guess it's similar to the sage advice I received from my first course Warrant - 'If I'm yelling and you're in s**t, you'll be ok. If I'm not yelling and you're in s**t, you're f***ed and you're probably getting charged.' I disagree completely that yelling and swearing makes the message get through more.

But I also think there is still a place for the old fashioned 'Blast of poo' approach, in some situations, and of course, swearing is usually quite prevalent in these blasts.

When teaching, it is never a good idea and reeks of unprofessionalism. Why you need to say 'pull back on the f'n cocking handle' instead of 'pull back on the cocking handle' is beyond me.