Shooting in Carcassonne: 17 wounded when french soldier fires on crowd.

[Duke_The_Patriot]

You are both correct however. I did not mean to offend anyone, but I have seen first hand inccidents of French military personall (as i am sure of any country) make some mistakes.

 

[George Wallace]

........., which allowed me to partake in some of their exercises. I Have in fact, seen them do many mistakes in training. PM me if you want a list.

Now let me get this straight; you are a 19 year old Pte, Infantry, in the Reserves, and you have partaken in Exercises in France with your father's 'friends' in a French EW Unit.  Looking at some of your other posts, something just isn't right here.

 

[Run away gun]

You are both correct however. I did not mean to offend anyone, but I have seen first hand inccidents of French military personall (as i am sure of any country) make some mistakes.

Did you march across Corsica with the French Foreign Legion too? Or did your father not know anybody in that Regiment?

There is a little more to going out on training exercises with an army than knowing people who know people. Let alone another nation on the other side of the world.

 

[Sig_Des]

I Have in fact, seen them do many mistakes in training. PM me if you want a list.

Nah, you can keep your list.

I've seen mistakes made by Portuguese Airborne soldiers, Romanians, American, and *gasp* Canadians.

My point is, you cannot generalise on one soldiers mistake based on their nationality.

The fact is, someone, somewhere, made a mistake that had tragic results. YOU made it seem like the incident is the standard with that military, when it could have happened to ANY military.

 

[armyvern]

I'm quite sure this tragedy will result in ammendments to the way training occurs in France.

Simple steps really that to us, as Canadians, are commonplace within our existing regulations already.

Here, it is routine to turn in live rounds after having utilized them on the range etc .. We pat ourselves down, then offer up the old "I have no live rounds, empty casings, pyrotechnics on my possession Sir..." declaration is heard quite often and is a matter of routine around here after live ammo usage.

Ergo, none of us should, as stated was the case with the French incident, have any mags with live rounds hanging about in our TV after their being issued to us days earlier for a shoot.

One possible explanation for the error Sunday, the army authorities said, was that the sergeant forgot to remove a magazine of live ammunition after a shooting exercise that he had taken part in a few days earlier. When he filled his vest with blanks before the exercise Sunday, he could have overlooked the magazine that was already in one pocket, they said.

This is certainly a tragic case, and this sergeant will have to live with it for the remainder of his life.

If, indeed, the above scenario is actually what occured, I am left to further ponder that "muscle memory" which is drilled into us ...

The problem, he said, was that once the cartridges are inside a magazine their color is visible only from the top end, and the magazines are put inside the ammunition pockets of a military vest head down to facilitate the loading of the gun.

Even given that they are placed head down in vests in France, this statement would indicate that there may perhaps not be that "move to inspect the mag and rounds by physical/visual inspection" prior to loading onto the weapon as we are taught here in Canada, given that this French soldier would know the difference between a live and blank round at a glance -- if that glance had occured.

If so, there indicates some simple precautions that could prevent similar tragedy in the future. Obviously the Sgt was expecting "blanks" as the article indicates he did indeed have a BFA attached.

A metal device that the sergeant had on his weapon for the exercise was designed to help explode blanks but slowed the real bullets and reduced their precision.

Very tragic and sad situation where a couple of things, seemingly insignificant in and of themselves, all managed to combine and come together in circumstances which produced tragic results.

 

[MJP]

If, indeed, the above scenario is actually what occured, I am left to further ponder that "muscle memory" which is drilled into us ...

Even given that they are placed head down in vests in France, this statement would indicate that there may perhaps not be that "move to inspect the mag and rounds by physical/visual inspection" prior to loading onto the weapon as we are taught here in Canada, given that this French soldier would know the difference between a live and blank round at a glance -- if that glance had occured.

If so, there indicates some simple precautions that could prevent similar tragedy in the future. Obviously the Sgt was expecting "blanks" as the article indicates he did indeed have a BFA attached.

Aye that muscle memory works well for soldiers that aren't trained in tactical shoot/gunfighter.  But if he was so trained, just as it is here in Canada, split seconds count on reloads and the glance at the top of the mag is removed for the sake of speed to get accurate rounds down range.

Just saying is all.....I have no idea of his training nor will I speculate on how this happened or what the soldier's actual training was.

 

[armyvern]

Aye that muscle memory works well for soldiers that aren't trained in tactical shoot/gunfighter.  But if he was so trained, just as it is here in Canada, split seconds count on reloads and the glance at the top of the mag is removed for the sake of speed to get accurate rounds down range.

Just saying is all.....I have no idea of his training nor will I speculate on how this happened or what the soldier's actual training was.

I agree. However, tactical shooting/gunfighter emphasizes shooting in the "fighting/war" enviornment ... where one expects his mags to be loaded with live ammo, thus is not inspecting to ensure he has blanks and thereby is saving those precious seconds where mag changes can indeed save your or your buddies life.

Even given a "gunfighter" scenario with his training --- the return of live ammo at the end of "live fire" tasks (such as is the case in Canada) may have prevented this tragedy. The removal of either-or of the factors (not being required to return live ammo OR the non-inspection of the mag/ammo prior to loading) may have avoided the combination of these factors into a tragic sequence of events if, as I said earlier ... those were the actual circumstances of the event.

The circumstances that I quoted as to the events were those circumstances which may have played as role as detailed/released by French Army authorities. No speculation on my part --- I'm just pondering their regulations pertaining to live ammo handling based upon on their own Army released (see my 1st quoted bit in last post) details of the occurance.

All I know is that it's now career over for what seemed to be a very promising individual and soldier under circumstances which, by the French Army's comments on details, would seem to have been preventable had something akin to Canadian policy been in effect and that I'd expect some changes in their live ammo handling policy in the future as a result of this incident.

It's just tragic, no matter what.

 

[Kalatzi]

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/l01696769-france-army/
One soldier  substituted live rounds for blanks????
One sick puppy?

for a better link (Cartoon)

http://cartoonbox.slate.com/index/?image=3

Higher seems to be doing the right thing

 

[Duke_The_Patriot]

Nah, you can keep your list.

I've seen mistakes made by Portuguese Airborne soldiers, Romanians, American, and *gasp* Canadians.

My point is, you cannot generalise on one soldiers mistake based on their nationality.

The fact is, someone, somewhere, made a mistake that had tragic results. YOU made it seem like the incident is the standard with that military, when it could have happened to ANY military.

Yes your right, for that i take my comment back.

Oh with the part of my Father in France, he is the closest of friends to a Capitaine (I will not mention her name) and did allow me to be in one of the recon patrol exercises, and using the French FAMAS. You don’t need to believe me, my father and her go a WHILE back, too long of a story to explain...

 

[geo]

Duke.... sounds fascinating.

I can tell you for a fact that here, IN CANADA, no civilian would ever be handed a weapon and be invited to participate in any "recon patrol ex". 

If it reaqlly happened - good for you - but, what you see is what you get... In other words, the level of "action" you would have experienced in such an exercise would be far, far and away a tame and lazy version of the real thing - where the soldiers acting out the activity were probably falling asleep...

 

[Sigger]

Geo,

let it go man.

 

[Haletown]

if you ever get to visit, Carcassone is quite the place.

You get up on the walls and you can almost imagine the enemy siege army camped out on the plains

Worth a couple of hours of time.

I was there with a buddy who is a Monty Python fan and who kept leaning over the ramparts and  yelling "Lancez la vache". 

I cracked up but the locals didn't get the joke 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Where is the usual 'lets not jump to conclusion folks the investigation is ongoing lets wait until the facts are out thread locked' post?

  ;D

 

[George Wallace]

Where is the usual 'lets not jump to conclusion folks the investigation is ongoing lets wait until the facts are out thread locked' post?

  ;D

OK !


LOCKED !

And UNlocked for the addition of recent NEWS.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The following is a machine translation (French to English) of some articles about the inquiry into the incident at Carcassonne.  It appears that it was common practice in this particular unit, and perhaps in many French units for soldiers to keep unexpended ammo, even though it seems that French Army regulations (like Canada’s) require unexpended ammo be turned in following a range serial.

Fusillade de Carcassonne: des soldats reconnaissent des dysfonctionnements

Shootout Carcassonne: soldiers recognize malfunctions
September 10 2008

TOULOUSE (AFP) - Several soldiers interviewed after the shooting of Carcassonne, who had made 17 injured during an open day in a barracks on June 29, acknowledged "serious malfunctions" in the control of ammunition and organization of demonstration, according to France Info.

The radio reported Wednesday to have had access to minutes of the hearings by the gendarmes, soldiers of the Parachute Regiment, 3rd Marine Infantry (RPIMa) from Carcassonne, including the sergeant who fired into the crowd mistakenly shot real bullets instead of blanks.

Defense Minister Herve Morin had reported on July 6 of "failures on the conditions for issuing and control of ammunition." "There were practices contrary to rules and procedures decided by the General Staff of the Army," he said. These shortcomings are indicative of "a widespread and dangerous behavior" within the military regarding the management of ammunition, said Wednesday at the AFP Me Etienne Nicolau, plaintiffs' lawyer.

In PV quoted by France Info on its website, a sergeant acknowledged that it was "possible" to keep live ammunition after a year, while a lieutenant, head of one of the two teams involved, discusses the lack control. The author sergeant fired, indicted for "unintentional injuries", states have realized afterwards that he had done in the past an internship with chargers containing live ammunition. "

"There is nothing new under the sun," said Colonel Benoit Royal, head of earth-Sirpa (Information Service of the Army). "It was confirmed from the outset that there were shortcomings in the use of ammunition by parachute commando groups (ie: PAG, elite units of the 3rd RPIMa) and that is why were these PAG dissolved, "he told AFP.

Colonel Royal has also denied the existence of a "change of scenario for the demonstration of Carcassonne, reported, according to France Info in Minutes a lieutenant. According to the plaintiffs' lawyer, minutes "only confirm that the conduct of Sergeant (author firing) was not personal."

"All military practice in the same way. They keep the ammunition unused. It is contrary to the rules of military manuals. Why do they keep military ammunition? What must be in the arsenal and formed?" S ' Me Nicolau is questioned. "It is clear that this is a widespread behavior in the army. The danger of this practice is shown through the drama of Carcassonne," he said.

"The defense and the plaintiffs will ask the magistrate to file the investigation command," said the lawyer, stating that they would also "compare what happened in Carcassonne with what say military manuals regulating the firing and ammunition. "

Me Etienne Nicolau is the defender of several victims of the shooting, whose family from the small Gabriel, aged 3, seriously wounded by gunfire, along with his parents.

The case is heard by the court in Montpellier, which was denied Wednesday any statement on the revelations of France Info.

Contacted by AFP, the commander of the 3rd RPIMa Carcassonne has refrained from any comment.

Fusillade de Carcassonne : cinq soldats révèlent de graves dysfonctionnements

Shootout Carcassonne: five soldiers reveal serious shortcomings
10/09/2008 - 08:00

CARCASSONNE (NOVOpress) - The minutes of hearing of the five paratroopers heard after the tragic demonstration of Carcassonne on June 29 last reveal serious shortcomings in the control of ammunition, said France Info who was able to obtain these PV.

During a demonstration of exfiltration of hostages inside the barracks of the 3rd RPIM, before more than a thousand spectators, a sergeant had mistakenly fired live bullets instead of blank bullets and injured 17 people including a child of 3 years. On the same day and the next day, five soldiers including the gunman were heard by the gendarmes.

Asked about the possibility of keeping live ammunition after a shooting exercise, a sergeant replied: "Of course. Nobody will check the number of rounds fired. "And admit that he himself already kept in his possession that kind of ammunition. A lieutenant for his part admitted that the control of ammunition, in principle established by buddy, was actually non-existent.

Another revelation, "the crowd should not be here but in the corner," said a lieutenant who says: "The scenario has been changed at the last moment. There was a note that I have not read. " It remains now to determine who decided to change the last minute and why.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The following is a translation of an article in Le Figaro concerning the latest about this incident.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Carcassonne Shootout: The shooter dismissed
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2009/01/07/01016-20090107ARTFIG00514-fusillade-de-carcassonne-l-auteur-des-tirs-revoque-.php
Cyrille Louis  07/01/2009

INFO FIGARO - The decision taken by the Chief of Staff of the Army, has been notified to Sergeant Vizioz who, on 29 June 2008, wounded 17 people during a public demonstration.

Seven months after the shooting during which seventeen spectators were injured during a demonstration held at the 3rd RPIMa Carcassonne, Sergeant Nicolas Vizioz already suspended as a precaution, has been dismissed from the Army . From now on, and subject to remedies, he returns to civilian life. Contacted Wednesday morning by his superiors when he was with his family in Isere, the soldier went in the middle of the day to Carcassonne, where he was notified of the penalty imposed against him by the Chief of  Staff of the Army.

Nicolas Vizioz, 28, is now the seventh soldier to receive administrative action in connection with the shooting at the end of June 2008 at a demonstration organized by the 3rd RPIMa. In late July, six officers and NCOs of the same regiment, including the former head of the unit, the Colonel Merveilleux Vignaux, were hit with disciplinary action ranging from ten to thirty days of arrest for their responsibility for the failures illustrated by the drama.

Upon being informed, Sergeant Vizioz’s lawyer, M. Robert Phung, responded Wednesday: "I consider my client serves as an outlet and a scapegoat in this case. He never denied his responsibility, he sought from the beginning to assume it. However, it is not intentional misconduct and the punishment seems very heavy. Vizioz seems to be a target of all those atoning for failures and malfunctions of the system. "

Indicted for "unintentional injuries", the sergeant also is subject to a penalty of three years imprisonment and 45 000 euros fine. Ultimately, the responsibility of the organizers of the Open Houses could also be questioned by the examining magistrate.

 

[geo]

Dismissal plus three years imprisonment plus 45 000 euros fine.

I consider my client serves as an outlet and a scapegoat in this case. He never denied his responsibility, he sought from the beginning to assume it.

The sentence appears to be appropriate IMHO
Am not certain what this thing about being a scapegoat is all about.  This Sgt did not return his ammunition to Stores at the end of a range ex.
The Sgt did not inspect his magasine prior to inserting it in his mag in the morning.
The Sgt did not carry out the most basic safety precautions on his weapon prior to entering an area where civilians were present.

Ya messed up bubba.