Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF

[FormerHorseGuard]

Wait…what? Isn’t that an oxymoron?

Base Toronto was a complete imaginary place, even people who lived across the street, did not know there was a base there. So I could have imaginary friends too. Summer camp at Meaford was more strict.

 

[Haggis]

This is one of many arguments the Provinces and Ottawa has about military rules vs civilian rules. When I lived in Iqaluit if I had my 404s I could of gotten my NWT drivers without a road test because they accepted that as a drivers license but not in Ontario.

I was involved in a collision while driving a CAF vehicle in Ontario many years ago (I was hit from behind while stopped in traffic). The attending police officer refused to recognize my DND 404 as a "driver's license" and was about to charge me accordingly when his Sergeant, a veteran, arrived and set him straight.

While we're at it, lets get every CAF member to take the Canadian Firearms Safety Courses and be granted a PAL. It could help reduce NDs and keep certain senior officers out of trouble.

 

[Eaglelord17]

If DND had go and license every person doing a trade from doctors to nurses, to accountants, to mechanics to engineers according to every provincial standards posting a person would be a nightmare. Lawyers need to members of the bar ( only guessing here) due to the fact they might to have represent the military in a civil action, like traffic accident or property damage ( just examples )

Hurricane in the US , late 80s early 90s the CF medical team sent to help out was denied US permission to work because of non US medical license because they were treating US citizens.

CAF heavy truck drivers cannot drive a tractor on weekends unless they have personal A class license

This is one of many arguments the Provinces and Ottawa has about military rules vs civilian rules. When I lived in Iqaluut if I had Imy 404s I could of gotten my NWT drivers without a road test because they accepted that as a drivers licence but not in Ontario.

One here that everyone would understand
Drinking age varies by Province the Federal government does not have one. Messes have a Provincial liquor licence out of courtesy but under the rules of messes the CO or his or her appointed person can extend Mess bar hours. No one in a Province can do that at will. Or the CO can close a mess because they feel it is the right thing to do. Beer machines in barracks , no guide lines when they could be used or not used ( thus really dates me CFB Toronto Jr rank barracks building 132 had a beer machine in the common room cost 1.50 or 2 bucks i cannot remember but it was accessible 24 hours 7 days a week . No bar in Ontario would be allowed that service or apartment building or student residential building.


Military has rules and regulations because it suits the military not the soldier or the province that hosts the base .

A soldier beat a ticket at one of the Ontario bases under the Highway traffic act because Ontario laws did not apply on Base, The MND had all the traffic control signage changed to include a sticker on the back state as ordered by MND so it would fall under the province's traffic laws. I do not recall all the details but remember MP friends talking about putting the stickers on the signs on during a shift, complaining about it over lunch in the mess.


Can you imagine an army exercise in Western Canada and it hosted soldiers from all over Canada and before they could do any part of the exercise every soldier had to go write the hosting bases Provinces trade exams and then be licenced by that Province. The added time for the soldiers to study, write the exams, pass any practical or hands on testing and the added costs of such training? The exercise might be over before the cooks could do the Province's safe food handling course, or before the V techs could pass or they might be in need of enrolling in the Provinces apprentice program to get to the testing stage .


I read and retain a lot of useless facts, but sometimes it helps to make a point.

Sorry for any typos , 330 am and using my touch screen tablet

For the speeding ticket the way it was always explained to me was the military isn’t required to follow the speed limit if it so chooses. That being said you are being ordered to follow the speed limit and failing to do so is disobeying a direct order and you will be charged accordingly.

 

[FJAG]

Lawyers need to members of the bar ( only guessing here) due to the fact they might to have represent the military in a civil action, like traffic accident or property damage ( just examples )

That's really not it.

The requirement to have been called to the bar confirms that the individual has had the appropriate training as a lawyer (the common law course is fairly standard across the country). Thereafter the requirement is to have a current active practicing certificate just like a provincial crown attorney would. Unlike provincial crown attorneys, legal officers can get posted all across the country and still do their federal work notwithstanding that their certificate is in another province. (There was a time when you couldn't practice in a province at all unless called to the bar in that province - federal lawyers were exempt form this as long as acting for the federal government - but the interprovincial practicing processes have eased up quite a bit since then)

Legal officers generally don't do civil trial actions - that's the purview of the Office of the DND and CF legal Advisor which is staffed with civilian DoJ lawyers or contracted lawyers (The last time I looked regional AJAGs did have some powers to settle certain claims against the crown but not take them to court).

The licencing issue is more one of ensuring legal officers have met and continue to meet standards and remain subject to professional oversight.

 

[Navy_Pete]

In case anyone else completely missed it a few pages back, apparently all charges are withdrawn. So, is Lt Gen Whelan going back on duty now, or will he stay on paid leave while he sues the heck out of the government?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/whelan-charge-withdrawn-1.6984388

Military withdraws final conduct charge against Lt.-Gen. Steven Whelan​

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Military judge ruled emails at centre of case could not be admitted as evidence for prosecution​

Sarah Ritchie · The Canadian Press · Posted: Oct 02, 2023 10:36 AM EDT | Last Updated: October 2

Lt.-Gen. Steven Whelan arrives to court in Gatineau, Que., on Monday, Sept. 25, 2023. The Canadian military has withdrawn the one remaining conduct charge against Whelan, ending the court martial that was slated to run the rest of the week. (Sean Kilpatrick/The Canadian Press)
Lt.-Gen. Steven Whelan wiped away tears Monday morning when military prosecutors withdrew the final charge against him as his defence lawyer was preparing to cross-examine the complainant in the case.
Whelan had pleaded not guilty to one count of conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline for changing a performance report in 2011.
The military alleged he gave the complainant in the case, a woman who was under his command at the time, a better score to prevent her from telling senior commanders about flirtatious emails Whelan had sent her before they worked together.
"My client has gone through this for two years, at huge cost to the taxpayers and him personally, from what I believe was a false allegation motivated by financial interest," said defence lawyer Phillip Millar.
"It's disappointing not to have the ability to get the truth out and to answer to the claims that have haunted this man since the Oct. 15 (2021) leak that put him in a category of people that he had no business being placed in."

• Military's former HR head pleads not guilty to charge related to alleged inappropriate relationship
• Military's key witness takes stand at Lt.-Gen. Whelan's court martial

Whelan was removed from his post as head of military personnel when media reported that he was under investigation by military police in October 2021. He has been on paid leave since then, and has been listed among the top generals who were sanctioned after being accused of sexual misconduct.
Whelan was charged in January 2022 with two counts of conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline. Prosecutors dropped the first charge, related to what the military called an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate, at the beginning of the court martial last week.
As proceedings resumed on Monday morning, prosecutors asked the military judge, Cmdr. Martin Pelletier, to withdraw the remaining charge, based on "an assessment of the evidence."

• Senior military official steps aside months after start of sexual misconduct investigation

Pelletier had ruled on Friday that the emails at the centre of the case could not be admitted as evidence for the prosecution. His ruling noted that if the defence were to attack the credibility of the complainant during cross-examination, the emails could be used to "rehabilitate her" during re-examination.
In his decision, Pelletier said it was established in court that "the emails are highly embarrassing personally and professionally" to Whelan. Their contents are under a publication ban.
Millar said his client plans to launch a civil suit against the federal government and "anyone who participated in the destruction of his career without doing their duty to investigate."

 

[daftandbarmy]

In case anyone else completely missed it a few pages back, apparently all charges are withdrawn. So, is Lt Gen Whelan going back on duty now, or will he stay on paid leave while he sues the heck out of the government?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/whelan-charge-withdrawn-1.6984388

Probably being lined up to keep this guy company in the wilderness...

 

[lenaitch]

I was involved in a collision while driving a CAF vehicle in Ontario many years ago (I was hit from behind while stopped in traffic). The attending police officer refused to recognize my DND 404 as a "driver's license" and was about to charge me accordingly when his Sergeant, a veteran, arrived and set him straight.

While we're at it, lets get every CAF member to take the Canadian Firearms Safety Courses and be granted a PAL. It could help reduce NDs and keep certain senior officers out of trouble.

I was a cop in Ontario for 31 years, 15 of those as a road warrior/supervisor and I never knew the authority of a DND 'licence' until I learned it here a couple of years ago. It's not mentioned in our Highway Traffic Act nor was it included in our training, policy or field manuals. I would have at least thought that police officers around DND establishments would come to know it.

 

[dapaterson]

DND licenses are now compliant with the national standard, so that's a major step forward.

(That Biff is the only person who can issue them, and no one covers for him when he's on leave is perhaps not such a progressive thing).

 

[Infanteer]

DND licenses are now compliant with the national standard, so that's a major step forward.

(That Biff is the only person who can issue them, and no one covers for him when he's on leave is perhaps not such a progressive thing).

Sounds like the Service Ontario building I had to go to to get...everything.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

DND licenses are now compliant with the national standard, so that's a major step forward.

(That Biff is the only person who can issue them, and no one covers for him when he's on leave is perhaps not such a progressive thing).

Actually, that is pretty good security if only, like, 4 people in Canada can issue the things….

 

[dimsum]

Actually, that is pretty good security if only, like, 4 people in Canada can issue the things….

Something something stopped clock…

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

So what happens to the 2 Generals now? Career halted, I did not see either one becoming CDS. But the court cases sure ruin a public sector job.

Retirement ? New positions for LGen and MGen are hard to come by, give back their old positions then what happens to those Generals?

Forced retirement or a job with no meaning in the bowels of the NDHQ campus?

 

[TacticalTea]

Actually, that is pretty good security if only, like, 4 people in Canada can issue the things….

I often wonder about those bugs-as-a-feature.

Like for immigration. Is it on purpose that the residency and citizenship processes are so long and byzantine? To discourage those that don't REALLY want to be part of the country?

 

[TacticalTea]

So what happens to the 2 Generals now? Career halted, I did not see either one becoming CDS. But the court cases sure ruin a public sector job.

Retirement ? New positions for LGen and MGen are hard to come by, give back their old positions then what happens to those Generals?

Forced retirement or a job with no meaning in the bowels of the NDHQ campus?

I wouldn't want to work for an organization that dragged me over the coals like so.

MGen's lawyer says he'll take it to civil court, so probably settle and retire on a beach.

 

[Happy Guy]

I would think that the MND will terminate the employment of LGen Whelan and MGen Fortin shortly. Their sexual harassment charges and subsequent acquittals caused enough embarrassment and ruined the reputation of the honourable government (sarcasm).

 

[Navy_Pete]

So what happens to the 2 Generals now? Career halted, I did not see either one becoming CDS. But the court cases sure ruin a public sector job.

Retirement ? New positions for LGen and MGen are hard to come by, give back their old positions then what happens to those Generals?

Forced retirement or a job with no meaning in the bowels of the NDHQ campus?

That probably makes it very easy to demonstrate real damages in a tort case, where (as I understand it) in Canada you have to prove actual realistic possible lost wages as damages. So if they are already making 300k or whatever a year, with a forecast out to CRA, then some additional time as a civi doing some kind of consultant work it adds up pretty quickly.

I'm sure both would have preferred to not have it happen in the first place, but at least they'll get paid (although I suspect Fortin probably has a much stronger case).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So what happens to the 2 Generals now? Career halted, I did not see either one becoming CDS. But the court cases sure ruin a public sector job.

Retirement ? New positions for LGen and MGen are hard to come by, give back their old positions then what happens to those Generals?

Forced retirement or a job with no meaning in the bowels of the NDHQ campus?

Maybe he can issue 404's?

 

[dimsum]

Maybe he can issue 404's?

 

[dapaterson]

Maybe he can issue 404's?

Not a Loggie.

 

[OldSolduer]

Maybe he can issue 404's?

Issue socks at Clothing Stores and ensure the Color lines match properly.