- Reaction score
- 6,429
- Points
- 1,360
E.R. Campbell said:ombudsmen
Must drink more tea before I respond......hehehe
Lets just say if you think some organizations in the military are self-licking ice cream cones.......
E.R. Campbell said:ombudsmen
Big part of the problem, indeed. To be more specific, if more leaders consistently applied the rules/systems that are currently in place, even if it's hard to do, you don't get outsiders making new rules up. Such rules don't get put into place because of the 99.9% of those wanting to do the job right. They get into place because some may not want to make the hard decision (or aren't supported in doing so).E.R. Campbell said:Every time we do that we excuse the failings of the chain of command or the management team or the leadership or whatever, and we ask outsiders to protect us from ourselves, because we recognize that we are weak and imperfect and we don't want to be stronger because that's bloody hard.
cupper said:Was talking with a friend of mine over the past weekend, and he had read the report, and was also in on one of the town halls, and filled out the questionaire that circulated.
He felt that perhaps Justice Deschamps may well have had a preconceived outcome going into the mandate, and most of the questions and interviews were gear to deliver the outcome she was looking for.
Anyone else have that same experience?
Schindler's Lift said:All of the Snr NCOs in the NCR were required to attend the Mess a few days before the report came out and we were told in no uncertain terms that we were part of the problem and needed to step up and be part of the solution. Now, I have no doubt that there is an issue however I don't believe it is anywhere near what it is portrayed in this report and I'm getting a little tired of the generalities being used to paint us all with the same brush. I've read the report and it's obvious that Justice Deschampes both strayed from her lanes and has made some pretty broad and inflammatory accusations. Anyone who has read the report with an open mind sees it very clearly, unfortunately the average citizen gets their news and their opinions from sound bites from a media looking to sell papers.
Schindler's Lift said:All of the Snr NCOs in the NCR were required to attend the Mess a few days before the report came out and we were told in no uncertain terms that we were part of the problem and needed to step up and be part of the solution. Now, I have no doubt that there is an issue however I don't believe it is anywhere near what it is portrayed in this report and I'm getting a little tired of the generalities being used to paint us all with the same brush. I've read the report and it's obvious that Justice Deschampes both strayed from her lanes and has made some pretty broad and inflammatory accusations. Anyone who has read the report with an open mind sees it very clearly, unfortunately the average citizen gets their news and their opinions from sound bites from a media looking to sell papers.
Bird_Gunner45 said:MPs are pretty roundly torn down in the report. What are your thoughts on that from a MP perspective?
I know you're asking SL but I will chime in from my perspective:Bird_Gunner45 said:MPs are pretty roundly torn down in the report. What are your thoughts on that from a MP perspective?
One person says something so it is treated as fact and used to damn us all. Reading that, and considering the Military Justice system does not prosecute cases investigated by civilian police, and I can't see the retired Justice interviewing civilian defence attorneys in relation to cases tried in Criminal Court as that wasn't her mandate, the likely source of the comment is obvious, and biased.One interviewee, referring to procedural problems in the investigation which could potentially be relied upon to undermine a prosecution and secure an acquittal, commented: “Defence attorneys love [CFNIS investigations] because there are always issues”.
Now I'm confused. We're not capable of investigating sexual assaults, but sometimes we are. Herein lies the rub. We are accused of being incapable of investigating sexual assaults due to the number of sexual assaults we investigate so we need to refer them to civilians. Except in some places. Then we are supposed to take our investigators who now have even less opportunity to gain experience in investigating sexual assaults and have them investigate the sexual assaults where civilian police lack that experience as well??The ERA recognizes that, in Canada, one of the challenges the CAF faces is the wide diversity of resources available within civilian society, given that some CAF members work in more remote areas of the country and may not have access to the same resources as in the big urban centers. The ERA cannot, therefore, simply recommend that the CAF divest itself of all responsibility for cases of sexual assault, given that not all civilian authorities will themselves have more appropriate resources to tackle such problems than the military. The CAF operates training facilities, offers services for victim support, and has developed a full range of services in its military justice system, complete with disciplinary and administrative measures. The CAF therefore has the human and physical resources which, when properly marshalled, could benefit victims of sexual assault.
garb811 said:I find it interesting that she takes a shot at anyone and everyone with the exception of two groups in her report. MP - fail. Chain of Command (male and female) - fail. Padres - fail. Ombudsman (who she was miffed wouldn't meet with her) - fail. Doctors - fail. Victim Services - fail. Social workers and Nurses - pass (but they are failed by the system) Interesting, considering the demographics of those professions.
garb811 said:One thing I would like to see implemented is what I see in some jurisdictions, and that is the ability of the victim of a Sexual Assault to have the investigative process stopped after the initial collection of forensic evidence. In our system, once someone in authority has the complaint, the victim loses a say in what is going to happen, I sincerely think this adversely affects victims coming forward. I would like to see the victim have the ability to have the time sensitive material collected and then be given time to think about whether or not they wish to proceed with a full investigation, with all that entails. I suspect this is the gist of what she is trying to say by recommending an "outside agency" that people can go to for support and advice.
garb811 said:SL: COs do not have to justify their decision to proceed with a charge recommended by non-CFNIS MP or not, unless there is perhaps a query from higher up their chain of command. There isn't even a legal obligation on COs currently to inform non-CFNIS MP on their decision to proceed with charges or not, and if a Summary Trial is held, to inform the Guardhouse of the outcome. On numerous occasions I tried to push back to JAG when I was finally able to figure out the CoC was not proceeding with a charge and they refused to intervene or even ask for an explanation in case there was a lesson to be learned WRT the invest.
Bird_Gunner45 said:SL and Garb- Great points, I have learned a lot about the issues MPs face when dealing with these issues. Thanks!
I mean them having the ability to make a complaint in the future. Given the turmoil that is already going on with all that SA entails, nobody should be forced to make a "do it now or never" decision, particularly in the case of a date/spousal SA. I'd be interested in the case law you're citing here, for PD purposes, have the citation handy?Schindler's Lift said:This ability already exists. I've had extensive experience with complaints where the victim does not wish to proceed. At one time we would actually go through and gather the evidence we could and try to get possession of the SA kit from the hospital (if the victim would allow us to have it) and we would tell them that if they didn't wish to proceed at that time they could always change their mind later and we'd have retained what evidence we could gather. Now, owing to case law, we tell them that if they choose not to make a complaint they will not be able to do so in the future.
You're mixing apples and crab apples, take off your CFNIS goggles. ;DActually, COs do have to report their reasons for not proceeding with a charge where it's warranted. They report it to DMP and as far as them reporting back to the MP/CFNIS offices, I don't really care as long as its tracked by DMP. I also don't really care if they report back to the MP with the outcome of any Summary Trial since none of that info goes on CPIC and it doesn't really matter if the MPs are informed or not....other then out of curiosity for the MP involved in the file. Pressing the JAG for resolution or lessons learned is a waste of effort since they are the legal advisor to the CoC and as such he/she provides the advice to the CO who decided not to proceed. The RMP, through DMP, is the one who prosecutes once it is determined a CM is warranted and it's DMP that the COs must report their decisions to proceed or not.
303 Focus groups: female lower rank, female reserve; Coordinator interviews; Volunteer contributions
304 The ERA here draws an inference from participant comments, previously referred to, concerning the need to create an outside mechanism to receive complaints of sexual harassment and assault.
305 Volunteer contributions
306 Volunteer contributions
307 Focus group: female reserve; Volunteer contribution
308 Coordinator interview; Volunteer contributions
309 Volunteer contribution
310 Coordinator interviews
311 Coordinator interview
312 Focus group: female lower rank; Coordinator interview; Volunteer contributions
313 Coordinator interviews; Volunteer contributions
314 Coordinator interview; Volunteer contribution
Brad Sallows said:How does the mantra go? "Know the standard, follow the standard, teach the standard, enforce the standard"?
The "standard" already exists. If it is complex to know, follow, teach, and enforce because of all the bits and pieces grafted on as panicked responses, more bits and pieces grafted on will not serve. [Add:]The more you graft on, the more opportunities you create for barrack lawyers and other administrative burdens.