Service Dress - Right On!

[Dirty Patricia]

Perhaps, but many British Army units have distinct uniforms, as displayed in your photos.  Some British units have actually gone to the Rifle Green and produced a uniform very similar to our CFs and DEUs.

All British No. 2 Dress (equivalent to our CFs) are Khaki.  The Rifles do have a rifle green No 1 Dress, reflecting their traditional colours.  True many British regiments add their own traditions, from the rifle green pants of the Royal Irish Regiment, to crimson for the Kings Royal Hussars, to kilts, etc.  The basis for every No 2 dress uniform is khaki.

 

[Dirty Patricia]

Please don't make me wear green pants and a khaki jacket like the guy in the last picture!!

You think those are bad, check out these pants.........

 

[Dirty Patricia]

Personally, I disagree with bloused trousers in the dress uniform.

I agree as well.  It was an Airborne tradition and we should leave at that.

 

[PMedMoe]

You think those are bad, check out these pants.........

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I think we're on to something. We need a "Canadianized" khaki DEU.  That means no differences between officers' and NCMs' uniforms and a means of reflecting officers' ranks (NCMs aren't an issue) that reflects both the CF system (as much as I don't like it) and an element of tradition.  Toned down gold stripes, perhaps, or (as I suggested on the other thread), a version of the First World War system that, oddly, included stripes much like we wear now.  I like Sam Brownes too, perhaps for all ranks.

An aside:  the Brit photo with the gents wearing red pants is of the King's Royal Hussars (KRH).  They wear "cherry" trousers with all orders of dress except combats in recognition of a predecessor, the 11th Hussars "The Cherrypickers" (the nickname stemming from an action in an orchard during the Napoleonic Wars).  See, there's a reason for everything...  In Canada, we have very few such DEU-related traditions, hats of various types aside.

As for bloused trousers, Dirty Patricia has already hit on it:  very Airborne.

 

[Dirty Patricia]

We need a "Canadianized" khaki DEU. 

I think that is the key to pushing it.  We just want a traditional uniform that reflects our Canadain heritage from WW1, WW2 and Korea.  Now how do we make it happen?  If there is still talk of a medium weight Army uniform to replace the heavy weight one, that would be a good opportunity to make design and colour changes.

 

[RangerRay]

I'll add my voice for a "Canadianised" British-style dark khaki army DEU.  Very fitting for our heritage, and very classy to boot!

The British, Australian, and New Zealand uniforms are similar, yet distinct.  We share much of our military heritage with these countries.

 

[BDTyre]

I find the dark khaki tends to look much better with a kilt too, especially a kilt of a darker pattern - just look at the pictures in the post that started this whole thread.

But keep the coatee in its current color - much nicer looking than a cut-away DEU.

(modified to correct some early-morning spelling errors  ;D)

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I think that is the key to pushing it.  We just want a traditional uniform that reflects our Canadain heritage from WW1, WW2 and Korea.  Now how do we make it happen?  If there is still talk of a medium weight Army uniform to replace the heavy weight one, that would be a good opportunity to make design and colour changes.

Yeah, if it wasn't CF enough (ie: too "old-Army"), the bureaucracy would shoot any initiative down in a heartbeat.  It has to reflect heritage and the new reality - much as the Air Force did with their blue DEU.

Unfortunately, staffing a new uniform is a Byzantine maze of bureaucrats and approvals, all leading to a project.  While the Army controls bits and pieces of dress, the big purple machine is the approving authority.  Then, there'd be whinging about the design, followed by an SOR, a project and the involvement of PWGSC... *sigh*

The only possible end run would be to convince someone very high up - the CDS - that it was worthwhile.  He's listened to soldier's suggestions before...

 

[XMP]

From some of my research into the history of CF Greens, a minor but telling factor in selecting the colour was an effort on the part of the government to get away from a traditional "British Colonial" look. Peacekeeping  was the buzzword of the day and the government wanted Canadians to have a distinctive uniform that bore little resemblance to those worn by "colonial powers" such as England. This may even have been a factor in the adoption of the maple leaf above the rank  chevrons. (In the 1967 prototypes the chevrons didn't have maple leaves, these appeared and disappeared on the insignia of rank from Pay level 4 Ptes  to Sgt. up until the rank insignia was finally standardised about 1975.) 
A major consideration of course was the reduced costs in having the Forces dressed in identical uniforms. All that went out the window of course with the adoption of DEUs...
Reading through the above posts there seems to be a general consensus for a return to some form of the traditional khaki service dress for the Army. A jacket similar in cut to the current Army DEU but in khaki,  for all ranks I think might be a workable proposal. Rank insignia for WOs and NCOs (giving away my age there) could be in dull gold. For Officers, maybe even a return to the old style "pips and crowns"? But instead of the British type rank pips based on the Order Of The Bath, the pips could be of the Order Of Canada. The high priced help would keep the crossed sword and baton and maple leaves...

 

[ModlrMike]

Reading through the above posts there seems to be a general consensus for a return to some form of the traditional khaki service dress for the Army. A jacket similar in cut to the current Army DEU but in khaki,  for all ranks I think might be a workable proposal. Rank insignia for WOs and NCOs (giving away my age there) could be in dull gold. For Officers, maybe even a return to the old style "pips and crowns"? But instead of the British type rank pips based on the Order Of The Bath, the pips could be of the Order Of Canada. The high priced help would keep the crossed sword and baton and maple leaves...

While I agree that a khaki uniform would be the right way to go, I think that keeping the ranks as they are is important. Our current rank badges should be the part that differentiates us from our commonwealth partners with similar uniforms. In addition, it will reduce any sense of confusion between the three "services", particularly for the purple trades who will continue to work in a "tri-service" environment.

 

[RangerRay]

While I agree that a khaki uniform would be the right way to go, I think that keeping the ranks as they are is important. Our current rank badges should be the part that differentiates us from our commonwealth partners with similar uniforms. In addition, it will reduce any sense of confusion between the three "services", particularly for the purple trades who will continue to work in a "tri-service" environment.

As much as I would like to see a return of the traditional ranking structures of all three services, I don't think that's a realistic option at this point.  A return to a dark khaki service uniform would be a huge improvement over the "green hornet" bus driver outfit.

 

[ModlrMike]

As much as I would like to see a return of the traditional ranking structures of all three services, I don't think that's a realistic option at this point.

That's not what I was proposing... just the opposite. I think we should keep the ranks as they are.

 

[XMP]

The current rank insignia for Officers is very similar to the patterns worn by the old Navy and Air Force. The only real difference is in the General/Flag Officer patterns. The Navy is even wearing the traditional curl on the Mess Dress uniforms. I tend to agree however, that the pip and crown proposal for the Army likely wouldn't fly (no pun intended.)

 

[time expired]

Just got through watching Band of Brothers for about the 5 time
and could not help thinking how good the US Army version of
battledress looked ,minus that funny looking hat.It was designed
strictly as a dress uniform,unlike our battledress which was actually
worn in the field,.I always regretted the fact that we and most
western armies went to the business suit with brass buttons,when
with a little bit of imagination a battledress style uniform could
have been designed and would have been distinctly Canadian.
The Americans referred to the this as the Eisenhower jacket
I believe.
A problem would have been that fat guys looked particularly
fat in battledress.
                          Regards

 

[time expired]

To add to the above, about bloused pant with dress uniforms,
with battledress we always wore puttees,only office pogues
were excused.Not that I am anyway suggesting a return
to puttees,but IMHO bloused pants belong to a SOLDIERS
uniform.
While I am on the subject,I was fortunate enough to attend
the 60th. Anniversary parade in the Normandy and being
somewhat unimpressed by the Canadian contribution a
rainbow formation of tall ones,short ones,dark blue,light
blue, sand coloured ones,females and quite a few fat ones,
stuck between the above mentioned Hussars,and a very
sharp Norwegian drill team in a traditional dress uniform.
I am afraid we looked decidedly 2nd. class in comparison.
                            Regards

 

[geo]

Puttees!  Yargh!!!  No effing way!  Wore those for a couple of months before being told to take em off and cut away the button tabs we had on the bottom of your BD trousers.  Never ever again!

WRT being amongst Tall ones, short ones, thin ones and fat ones.... have seen troops from other countries - we do not have exclusivity in the round ones.

 

[time expired]

GEO as I said I was not suggesting a return to puttees,and one
always cut off those tabs,but after a couple of years practice
putting on your puttees could be done in about a minute and
a half and they would stay put all day.Maybe true that other
armies have this problem however the didn't show up at an
international parade, seen by millions,with them.
                                    Regards

 

[geo]

been to a number of parades where those nations soldiers have been on parade & their cups runeth over.....

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

The current rank insignia for Officers is very similar to the patterns worn by the old Navy and Air Force. The only real difference is in the General/Flag Officer patterns. The Navy is even wearing the traditional curl on the Mess Dress uniforms. I tend to agree however, that the pip and crown proposal for the Army likely wouldn't fly (no pun intended.)

If this idea has any hope of succeeding, it needs to be disconnected from any other ideas regarding changes to the rank system, etc..  I have enormous sympathy for wearing stars and crowns.  It follows a rank system that exists in a huge array of armies - not all of them of British - and is almost univerally recognized as a result.  A Capt carries three "stars" in dozens of militaries.

However, introducing a proposal for a new/old rank system is a non-starter.  The Navy was not permitted to wear the curl on DEU as it was deemed to be too "British" and not "CF" enough.  In the current structual environment, it would be impossible for the Army to have a different rank system than the other two "elements" of the CF and the move would be bitterly opposed by nationalists within DND.

Much better to adapt the current system to khakis.  Perhaps the stripes, instead of being bright, cheap gold, could be a different shade of khaki - much like those worn in the First World War.

Again, if any move to revise DEU has any hope of succeeding, it has to take the path of least resistance:  no "new" uniform, no differences between ranks, no amendments to the "CF-ness" of it all, and distinctly Canadian.  Ergo:  a khaki DEU in a proper fabric, with slightly revised officer and NCM rank identifiers in khaki as well.