Second Language Training ( SLT )

[vonGarvin]

Further thinking of you assertion that BN comd and lower dont needs french.....what about scholl comandants ? what about training coy/sqn OC within those schools........

Those aren't battalions.  Those are schools.  Not all schools are bilingual.  Most, yes, but some are anglo, some franco. 
Now, for a discriminator between two equal captains in the same trade and regiment vying for one major position, instead of language, why not shooting proficiency?  But, in the case of two equals of the same rank, they go back as far as it takes to see a tie breaker.  Previous PERs, course scores, etc (as far as I know).
Back to kindergarten grades?  I doubt it!  But still, there are other ways.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Mr. Scarlet,
Lets see if I got this straight, useless pieces of paper hanging on a wall would break a tie, but a usefull skill one has that the other does not should go out the window??

 

[aesop081]

Those aren't battalions.  Those are schools.  Not all schools are bilingual.  Most, yes, but some are anglo, some franco. 
Now, for a discriminator between two equal captains in the same trade and regiment vying for one major position, instead of language, why not shooting proficiency?  But, in the case of two equals of the same rank, they go back as far as it takes to see a tie breaker.  Previous PERs, course scores, etc (as far as I know).
Back to kindergarten grades?  I doubt it!  But still, there are other ways.

But you run into the same issues not matter what you use. take education for example.......2 identical captains...identical everything.  One went to RMC the other is a CFR. Is a basket-weaving degree any more relevant than second language ?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and the points shouldn't apply to just the French or English languages.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

cdnavaitor-

You are speaking as if the CF is putting a complete prohibition on learning and speaking french.  That is not the case here, as I understand it.  Things have so seriously gotten out of wack on the language front over the past few years to the point where anyone not born on the Ottawa-Montreal corridor was basically screwed at the EX level. Hell, even the Capt/Maj level in many Occupations (I lived it)-Language course or no Language course.  I don't think that was ever the intent of the Official Languages Act.

You seem to have a real bit in your teeth over this issue.  Do you feel that a change in policy is going to personnally disadvantage you?  I'm not trying to be smart here- I'm trying to understand your specific objection to moving hundreds of millions of dollars per year in language trg to a point in a person's career (NCM or Officer) where it will do the most good, rather than shotgunning everyone, whether they will actually have an opportunity to practice daily their skills (vitally important IMHO, after three separate french courses over 20 years), or have any realistic aptitude for learning any more than hotel/restaurant English/French.  The CF will continue to be a bilingual institute- just differently, perhaps.

Thoughts?

 

[vonGarvin]

OK, to illustrate, here's an extreme example:
Two captains, both come from RMC (same year, same degree).  Both are Infantry, PPCLI.  They have served in the same units for the same length of time.
Both score 88 on PER, assume that's enough for the final promotion for PPCLI to major
Capt "A" has profile of BBB.
Capt "B" has profile of BAB.
Why should capt "A" get it and not capt "B"?  Suppose Capt "B" is in MUCH better physical condition than "A", even though  both have passed the BET, or BFT or whatever it's called.  
Physical Condition perhaps should have degrees of fitness, vice a minimum standard.  Maybe (again, just an opinion)
Or, if both are "equal" in this years PER, go back to last years, and the year before that.  Maybe, just maybe because Capt "B" came in first on a course, and "A" came in second on that same course should be the discriminator?


As for middle names, I just think of this one Adj who works for me.  His initials?  JAECD.  That does NOT include his last name!  

 

[aesop081]

cdnavaitor-

You are speaking as if the CF is putting a complete prohibition on learning and speaking french.  That is not the case here, as I understand it.  Things have so seriously gotten out of wack on the language front over the past few years to the point where anyone not born on the Ottawa-Montreal corridor was basically screwed at the EX level. Hell, even the Capt/Maj level in many Occupations (I lived it)-Language course or no Language course.  I don't think that was ever the intent of the Official Languages Act.

No i didnt not think there was a prohibition.  I agree that in many ways, the original intent has been lost.  And by the way.....i was born as far away from the Ottawa-Montreal corridor as it gets.

You seem to have a real bit in your teeth over this issue.  Do you feel that a change in policy is going to personnally disadvantage you?  I'm not trying to be smart here- I'm trying to understand your specific objection to moving hundreds of millions of dollars per year in language trg to a point in a person's career (NCM or Officer) where it will do the most good, rather than shotgunning everyone, whether they will actually have an opportunity to practice daily their skills (vitally important IMHO, after three separate french courses over 20 years), or have any realistic aptitude for learning any more than hotel/restaurant English/French. The CF will continue to be a bilingual institute- just differently, perhaps .

i do have an issue with all this but i dont think its the issue you think.  Will a change in policy be a personal disadvatage to me ? if you are refering to PER score, i couldnt care less about those.  What i do care about is being forced into postings i do not want because i was born speaking french and bothered to learn english. What realy set me off is this talk of "discrimination" brought up several posts earlier.  The prevalent attitude is that forcing Anglos to learn french is somehow disrimination but forcing Francos to learn english is not.


i'm doing a poor job at explaining myself, so you see why i dont get my points for written communication  ;D

 

[SeaKingTacco]

cdnaviator-

Fair enough comment.  Forcing anyone to learn a second language is, at best, an iffy proposition.  If you aren't motivated, you won't learn (been that guy.  Don't be me, kids.  )

How do we encourage bilingualism, without making it a PER issue?  Money maybe?  How about a bilingualism bonus for maintaining a (insert profile here) in french/english?  How about further paying people to acquire and maintain Pashtun, Farsi and Arabic?

Just thinking out loud...

 

[aesop081]

cdnaviator-

Fair enough comment.  Forcing anyone to learn a second language is, at best, an iffy proposition.  If you aren't motivated, you won't learn (been that guy.  Don't be me, kids.  )

How do we encourage bilingualism, without making it a PER issue?  Money maybe?  How about a bilingualism bonus for maintaining a (insert profile here) in french/english?  How about further paying people to acquire and maintain Pashtun, Farsi and Arabic?

Just thinking out loud...

I understand that there is no perfect solution.  I think that shotgunning everyone with SLT early on in their careers is the 80% solution. Train to need is a lofty goal but learning a second language at 40 years old when you are getting ready to assume command of a battalion is slightly more challengine than taking a LAV course because that individual is taking command of a mech unit. I'm 31 and trying to learn italian and arabic and beleive me its a struggle and trying to fit that into my schedule......You do have a good point with skill fade.  Once a bew officer has completed SLT...adequate oportunity to maintain it is needed.  I dont know what your MOC is like but in mine, fast, unexpected postings are the norm....where do you fit SLT when postings and pomotions are separated by only months ? It may not seem operationaly important but just thinking that we may be limiting people's career fields even more....

 

[armyvern]

There is also another side to all of this.

What about those personnel who constantly request SLT only to be told that the priority is for XXX rank and above right now because their career progression depends on it?

People like those Pte/Cpl working the front counter of clothing stores who are dealing with franco courses/instructors on a daily basis and can't communicate with them? The same people who are requesting SLT and being denied, yet their franco counterparts are being loaded onto English SLT courses easily because there is not as much demand?

Run more French SLT courses then I say. But until the CF comes up with a solution whereby each and every member is afforded equal access to, and opportunity for, second language training, then those pers who can NOT get loaded onto courses (even though they should be able to use the second language in their daily work) should NOT be bumped for promotion based on the fact that they have no French profile.

Fair is fair. Don't hold it against the Anglo member that he can't get loaded onto SLT because XXX ranks are the priority for french courses, when the same rank Franco member can get loaded onto an English course with much more ease.

Just my .02 worth.

 

[vonGarvin]

I think part of the reason I'm a bit bitter is from my past.  A few years ago, as my profile was nearing extinction, I applied for a Second Language course.  10 weeks, afternoons, on the same base.  No war going on then, nothing.  Not even ATHENA.  Anyway, my application was rejected because "my position was too vital to be spared".  Same person who denied me this course was subsequently put on a SLT, and given that he was the dude who said "no" to my course, you can correctly deduce that he was superior to me, and yes, had an even more vital job.


PS: I've never had a job so vital that if I weren't there, the CF would cease to function

 

[x-zipperhead]

  What realy set me off is this talk of "discrimination" brought up several posts earlier.  The prevalent attitude is that forcing Anglos to learn french is somehow disrimination but forcing Francos to learn english is not.

Is it not discriminitory to be providing second language trg to uni-lingual Franco recruits and not to uni-lingual Anglo recruits? (in the NCM world anyway.  I believe all officers receive second language trg). I would not argue against the fact that a second language is an asset.  Does a MCpl in R22eR need to speak english any more than a MCpl in the PPCLI needs to speak french. Probably not IMO.  However, as far as I understand it, the CF would have provided that R22eR MCpl second language trg when he joined (if he was not already bilingual).

IMO the discrimination is in not providing an equal opportunity to learn that much coveted second language profile thereby creating an uneven playing field career wise,

If I am mistaken in the belief that uni-lingual francos automatically are taught english during their initial training in the CF, please disregard all. ;D

P.S.  I think The Libriarian got to the heart of my post while I was fumbling over the keyboard but I'll post it any way

 

[old man neri]

Side note: Let this serve as a bit of a lesson to all: If you have kids force them (at gun point if necessary) into french immersion at jr high/high school, if available. I hated it when I went through but many years later I am happy my parents forced me into it.

 

[x-zipperhead]

old man neri,

Couldn't agree more.  However at the risk of sounding whiny, it can be difficult to get you child into a french immersion program here in the Annapolis Valley region of Nova Scotia (and I can only assume in other predominately english rural areas in Canada).  Space is limtied, at least one of the elementary school's program, in our area, is probably going to fold leading to a lottery system to get you kid in at another school.  But I digress. I don't want to get this thread off track and get my knuckles wrapped.

 

[aesop081]

If I am mistaken in the belief that uni-lingual francos automatically are taught english during their initial training in the CF, please disregard all. ;D

You are indeed mistaken.  i had several soldiers under my care who were posted to Anglo units who did not speak a word of english and were not afforded SLT. One learned on his own, one was posted to Valcatier because he simply couldnt learn and i dont want to talk about the 3rd one.

 

[x-zipperhead]

You are indeed mistaken.  i had several soldiers under my care who were posted to Anglo units who did not speak a word of english and were not afforded SLT. One learned on his own, one was posted to Valcatier because he simply couldnt learn and i dont want to talk about the 3rd one.

Okay, as I was then. 

I still maintain, however, that if it is important enough to warrant impacting PER scores and merit boards then there should be opportunity for Francos and Anglos alike to get SLT.  I realize that this would be impractical given the numbers of pers involved and would be cause for a reassessment of whether or not it is a requirement for the members rank/trade/posting (let's face it in many many cases it is not reqired).  If it is not a requirement and you cannot provide SLT then the member shouldn't be penalized IMHO.  Which IMO is exactly what happens in many cases.

 

[SupersonicMax]

cdnaviator-

Fair enough comment.  Forcing anyone to learn a second language is, at best, an iffy proposition.  If you aren't motivated, you won't learn (been that guy.  Don't be me, kids.  )

How do we encourage bilingualism, without making it a PER issue?  Money maybe?  How about a bilingualism bonus for maintaining a (insert profile here) in french/english?  How about further paying people to acquire and maintain Pashtun, Farsi and Arabic?

Just thinking out loud...

Why would I, as a Francophone, be FORCED to learn English and my Anglo friends aren't?

Max

 

[aesop081]

Okay, as I was then. 

I still maintain, however, that if it is important enough to warrant impacting PER scores and merit boards then there should be opportunity for Francos and Anglos alike to get SLT.  I realize that this would be impractical given the numbers of pers involved and would be cause for a reassessment of whether or not it is a requirement for the members rank/trade/posting (let's face it in many many cases it is not reqired).  If it is not a requirement and you cannot provide SLT then the member shouldn't be penalized IMHO.  Which IMO is exactly what happens in many cases.

Absolutely.  Everyone should have access to SLT in order to make it a level playing field. I dont know what its like over in the ditch but here, the language school has to cancel french courses for lack of students.  The last course they were going to run that i am aware of, all they wanted was 3 students, afternoons only.  They had to cancell because they could not find 3 students. The oportunity to take the course is there.  Now if units are unwilling to send their soldiers on SLT, no official policy will work for anyone, that is the unit penalizing its soldiers......

 

[armyvern]

Absolutely.  Everyone should have access to SLT in order to make it a level playing field. I dont know what its like over in the ditch but here, the language school has to cancel french courses for lack of students.  The last course they were going to run that i am aware of, all they wanted was 3 students, afternoons only.  They had to cancell because they could not find 3 students. The oportunity to take the course is there.  Now if units are unwilling to send their soldiers on SLT, no official policy will work for anyone, that is the unit penalizing its soldiers......

The opportunity may indeed be present where you are, but it is not like that everywhere; specificlly the bilingual Unit of which I speak. And, it is not that the members are not seeking this course, or that their CoC won't let them; it is unavailibility of spots on the courses and of their being a "non-essential rank level" for loading as it is not yet deemed "necessary" for their career progression. Yet these same guys deal everyday with franco students and instructors; So it is not "officially" necessary for them, but is absolutely necessary for them, more so than some of the pers who do, by virtue of rank, get loaded onto the course while in a "bilingual non-essentail" position.

Let's remember that careers loads SLT courses, not Units. And each career shop has to deal with whateevr factors involve it's particular trade.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Why would I, as a Francophone, be FORCED to learn English and my Anglo friends aren't?

Max

Max,

The short answer on the English that you are forced to learn as a Franco is- you are a pilot.  Your business is done worldwide (Quebec, notwithstanding) in English.  That may suck and be unfair, but that is the way it is.

The larger issue we are all trying to deal with here, is that there is a limited supply of second language course available (for both anglos and francos, but the problem is much worse amongst the anglos).  We also have a limited supply of time in a person's career to take language trg- after all, our primary business is to break other people's things, when our government tells us to.  That is the thing we must be best at.  The result of our current system is that we have made it nearly impossible for some competent people to reach the next higher rank, because they either have not been offered adequate training or have not had the time because of their primary duties.

So how do we ensure that all of those who absolutely need language trg, of any kind, get it, when they need it, and then don't end up with skills fade?  Let's be honest here- a francophone who has learned English at CF expense does not have to work very hard to maintain it- 8 million francos live on a continent with 250 million anglos.  It is a touch more difficult (but not impossible) maintaining your french profile, if you spend your career in Esquimalt. Or Wainwright.  Or Moose Jaw.  My suggestion is that, we have tried career advancement as the carrot and that has not worked well.  Maybe we should try bilingualism bonuses in the CF.  You get bilingual (french or english, farsi, arabic, pashtun, mandarin, etc, etc) either through a inservice course or on your own time and can maintain it by testing every XX years, you get $XX/year.  The higher your profile, the more money you get.

I am not insensitive to the whole national unity aspect of bilingualism within the CF and believe that it is important to be able to communicate with your troops in a language they can understand.  I just think we need to balance that necessity, with the necessity to actually be a combat force.

Hopefully, as a new generation of French-immersed Anglos in western Canada and elsewhere begin to graduate high school shortly, some of this will go away...

Thoughts?