'Say Please' at US Border Nets Pepper Spay

[George Wallace]

.......... i.e. previous problems at the border).

Do you mean the several times he has tried this stunt before, as reported in the article?

I really hate defending the stupid.

I am sure this fellows name and photo are already posted at all US Border Crossings as a potential trouble maker, and perhaps as a person restricted entry to the US.  Who is to blame, other than himself, if this is the case. 

How long can a case drag on in the Courts?  Does he have the gumption and stubborness to last that long?  (Silly question....He is big enough a fool to do so.) 

 

[OldSolduer]

Pepper spray is a darn sight better than being tasered or being grabbed and hauled out and planted face down on the pavement.
Maybe Mr. Politenessman will think the next time he decides to give the US Border Patrol(is that their agnecy)a hard time.
I've run into one or two rude border types as well (Canadian too) , but when you deal with idiots allll day long...

 

[chris_log]

You're arguing as if buddy (or any citizen of any nation) has the RIGHT to cross into another country. They don't. It is a priveledge. That's why there are rules and laws.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm telling people how the court system works, it's not my opinion, t'is fact. The civil courts won't decide whether he should or shouldn't have been allowed to enter the US, they will decide if the guy was wronged by the BSO. In the same vein, if the US wants to charge this guy for some crime or another in their criminal courts, then they can do that (and again, probably win). It is entirely probable that he can sue the BSO in court and win while at the same time get charged and convicted criminally for being a retard at the border. Sound stupid? You betcha. Can it happen? Yep.

It's not my fault the civil courts system doesn't work the way you want it too (or the way I want it to either).

That's why there are rules and laws

Rules and laws that apply to travellers and BSO's. Again, I read the article and laughed at this guy's stupidity. Trust me, I used to ask cops how they didn't spray/smash some retard they were dealing with. They responded that they had rules to follow too. Now, unless anyone here has intimate knowledge of US Customs and Border Protection UoF rules, then no one here is in any place to say that the BSO acted properly or not in the eyes of the law. Not under Canadian rules, not under what they think the rules are.

All I was trying to do was show what COULD happen in the courts. As we all know, our (and the American's) legal system is flawed at best.

Do you mean the several times he has tried this stunt before, as reported in the article?

Ah, forgot about that. In that case, there is a solid criminal case that the US border folks could bring to show a pattern of deviant behaviour at the border. As for a civil suit, maybe. Civil cases are very much at the discretion of judges, its all a matter of how it is argued. For example, the man could justify his behaviour as a result of (this is just what he may say, not my view) 'a pattern of hostility and aggression from the BSO's'.

Homework assignment for George and ArmyVern. Look up court transcripts of civil cases (google is a good start) and read them and I'm sure you'll understand what I'm saying. A warning, though. Don't drink any coffee beforehand to prevent a dangerous rise in blood pressure. You wouldn't believe the idiocy of some people's arguments, and even worse, that these arguments have won cases.

How long can a case drag on in the Courts?  Does he have the gumption and stubborness to last that long? 

A looooooong time. Lawyers love civil suits, they are easy to argue and whether you win or loose the lawyer still wins (financially). This man could argue his way through the court system for quite some time.

 

[George Wallace]

We'll just sic Judge Judy on him. 

 

[chris_log]

I've run into one or two rude border types as well (Canadian too) , but when you deal with idiots allll day long...

But, they should be polite regardless. I know people who come through the border act like morons, but, just because someone before me was a jerk doesn't give the BSO the right to be a jerk to me. I declare everything, I have my passport open and ready, I keep my hands in sight and my mouth shut. I figure if I do that, the BSO doesn't need to stick his head in my window and bellow at my girlfriend (who gets a squirrily around cops) "DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH, ARE YOU INCAPABLE OF ANSWERING FOR YOURSELF" and damn near make her cry when he asked what our citizenship was I told him we were both Canadian.

Some people here like to excuse the attitudes of some LE types, I would ask then if you would treat your troops the same way just because you were having a bad day.

I'm all about respect, I give it and therefore I expect it in return.

 

[chris_log]

We'll just sic Judge Judy on him.

I feel sick just saying this, but you may be right. She (despite playing it up for the cameras and the show's authenticity being suspect, IMHO) puts people in their place. We need more judges like her.

Our system of civil liability and a culture of rights, in place of responsibilities, has spawned idiots like this guy. Our system of human rights tribunals can also be traced back to said system. Next time you meet somebody who gloats about getting some money because he got a wiffle ball in the head, smack him.

 

[The_Falcon]

To to beat a dead horse to much, but to this numpties defenders 1) The use of O.C. spray was not excessive, and I will tell you why. This occurred on US soil, ergo US UofF procedures are the ones involved (And I did some digging The US Border Patrol Academy is affiliated with FLETC, page 39 of this link http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/GOVPUBS/gao/pdf25.pdf shows the FLETC UofF model). 

This link here illustrates the hazards US CBP face http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=2872&wit_id=6584 in particular this paragraph

From February 1, 2005, through June 30, 2007, there have been 1,982 incidents where Border Patrol Agents have been assaulted. These assaults include rockings, physical assaults, vehicular assaults as well as shootings and assaults with other weapons

In their UofF model (and coincedentally in the UofF models used by most of the services here in Canada), O.C. spray is a legitmate option for a person displaying active resistance (to commands).  Now this officer is probably keenly aware of the stats in the quoted paragraph, including the number of times people have used their own vehicles to assault his fellow officers (and who knows, maybe himself too).  With all that in the back of his head, do you not think its reasonable for him to believ that numbty is being actively resitant by refusing to cut power to a 2000+ weapon?  I know I would. 

And as for the ludicrous suggestions that the Officer should have attempt to some how physically make this person turn off the car/extract them.  I have one question for you, are you F**king insane?!  Go on youtube and start watching all the video involving police trying EXACTLY that.  I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't want to be dragged by a car.

As well based on those comments I guarantee that (neither of) you have neither been involved in a physical altercation, nor sprayed with O.C.  I have experienced both, and I will gladly get sprayed ,before getting involved in a punch up/wrestling match.  There is a MUCH higher risk of sustaining PERMANENT DIBLITATING injuries, for BOTH parties (officer and suspect) when a LEO has to resort to physical control tactics.

This officer choose to use the safest option that would allow HIM to go home to his family unscathed while de-escalating the situation.  Numpty brought these actions down upon himself, and only has himself to blame.  Sure getting sprayed very likely sucked for him, but you know what, it probably sucks alot less than if he had gotten beaten or shot.  Perhaps he will learn not to be such a self-righteous manners prick.

 

[Kat Stevens]

As an added bonus, every time this guy puts on the windshield defroster for the next while, he'll get a reminder of his stupidity.

 

[boredinto]

People who don't say "please and thank you" all the time are not being rude.  They may not be polite, but they are still behaving in a civil matter.  I would define the attitude as terse.  Which from a BSO is perfectly acceptable.  You are dealing with a BSO, not calling AT&T.

Not to mention the fact that the BSO is required to asses and identify potential offenders and threats to the US, this isn't always accomplished with big smiles and courteous gestures.  Anyone of the thousands of people crossing the boarder daily could be a potential threat to the guard...I for one will forgive him for his terse behavior. 

As for the pepper spray, was it excessive? Maybe...but maybe if an officer of the law asks that you comply with his request and issues you a verbal warning with the outcome clearly stated if you don't, just maybe, you should do as he says.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But, they should be polite regardless. I know people who come through the border act like morons, but, just because someone before me was a jerk doesn't give the BSO the right to be a jerk to me. I declare everything, I have my passport open and ready, I keep my hands in sight and my mouth shut. I figure if I do that, the BSO doesn't need to stick his head in my window and bellow at my girlfriend (who gets a squirrily around cops) "DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH, ARE YOU INCAPABLE OF ANSWERING FOR YOURSELF" and damn near make her cry when he asked what our citizenship was I told him we were both Canadian.

Some people here like to excuse the attitudes of some LE types, I would ask then if you would treat your troops the same way just because you were having a bad day.

I'm all about respect, I give it and therefore I expect it in return.

Have you even considered that being a professional he recognized a "squirrily" reaction and did what his instincts told him to do?  Your just friggin' lucky that he was also professional enough to realize she was just "squirrly" or you might both have been naked in a most uncomfortable way.
Customs rule of thumb,..your guilty, prove to the Officer that your not.

By the way, when your checking ID's I guess the reaction of the person handing it to you means nothing?........back to bouncer school for you then.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Not to defend this guy in the slightest, but have any of you ever departed Edmonton on a US bound flight?  The US Customs people there are without a doubt the surliest bunch of civil servants it's ever been my displeasure to encounter.  And yes, I know, they're just doing their jobs.  Or maybe this guy saw a few episodes of US Border Service on TV and expected to encounter one of those jovial cats instead?

 

[chris_log]

Have you even considered that being a professional he recognized a "squirrily" reaction and did what his instincts told him to do?  Your just friggin' lucky that he was also professional enough to realize she was just "squirrly" or you might both have been naked in a most uncomfortable way.
Customs rule of thumb,..your guilty, prove to the Officer that your not.

I'm just sayin'. I find some people on this site hold LE's up on a pedastle and steadfastly support whatever they do. Yea, some LE types have a bad attitude and a chip on their shoulder (not like you, Mr. Caught-at-Starbucks  ) and I get annoyed when people refuse to see that or acknowledge it as a problem. And of course, there are also the great guys like the CBSA type cracking jokes while he wrote me up for $100 in duties on stuff I declared, "you're the first couple under 25 who actually declared everything...whats wrong with you". Or the Guelph cop who asked a particularily intoxicated male if he wanted to learn a new style of dance that would be quite 'shocking' (for the slower posters here, he was referring to a taser).

Anyways, the topic isn't about good/bad LEO's. It's about a moron with a self-righteous mouth.

By the way, when your checking ID's I guess the reaction of the person handing it to you means nothing?........back to bouncer school for you then.

Yeah, but I didn't scream in their face (well, I didn't right away). I quit there anyways, finally. Waking up with bruised knuckles every morning started to suck.

 

[scas]

I have been flagged once a few years ao (pre-911). I got it cleared away, but thats besides the point. Every U.S. Customs officer I have ever dealt with Has been polite and curtious. Even with I came through the states a few months back, the officers I met at the border were nice and talkative, even when they searched the truck and car I was towing. The only problem with customs I've ever had actually was with the Candians, and our CFR's. "What province are you plates registered in?" While I'm driving a Milcots..  And this went on for a good 5 minutes.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Piper,

I've just read through all your stuff. Please don't preach or treat people here like morons. Lots of the people here have more court time than you have school time. People here also have more practical experience in these matters than you have learned as a 21 year old student. If you have an opinion, fine. However, don't act like some barrack room lawyer, stating your ideas as fact, perhaps to try impress people. It doesn't work, and neither frankly do most of your book examples, compared to the real world.

Now that's just my opinion, but I'm really old and probably have forgotten more than some students ever learn. Probably not you, but some.

 

[chris_log]

Piper,

I've just read through all your stuff. Please don't preach or treat people here like morons. Lots of the people here have more court time than you have school time. People here also have more practical experience in these matters than you have learned as a 21 year old student. If you have an opinion, fine. However, don't act like some barrack room lawyer, stating your ideas as fact, perhaps to try impress people. It doesn't work, and neither frankly do most of your book examples, compared to the real world.

Now that's just my opinion, but I'm really old and probably have forgotten more than some students ever learn. Probably not you, but some.

Oh you probably do, I wouldn't argue that.

There are people here with lots of experience in criminal courts. But the responses that were made indicate a lack of understanding on the civil court system. What I stated about the guy being fully within his rights to sue (and the fact that he DOES have a case as far as the civil courts are concerned) I wasn't expression my opinion. I know, everyone (myself included) likes to bash the ivory tower theorists who have little experience on 'the front lines' of whatever matter they are commenting on. However, sometimes it helps to get a view from someone looking at the whole picture and who isn't biased towards cop-hating (as so many often are). This is, of course, in response to my comments on LEO attitudes and the fact that SOME posters here refuse to acknowledge that police officers can do wrong, sometimes.

My examples aren't "book examples". All I argued was a) the guy has basis to sue and b) sometimes LEO's come across with a huge attitude problem. It is entirely real world, these cases DO happen and ARE won and police officers sometimes get rude and confrontational when dealing with people. No opinions here.   

For the record though, the guy deserved what he got and he's lucky he got away without serious criminal charges. 

 

[chris_log]

I have been flagged once a few years ao (pre-911). I got it cleared away, but thats besides the point. Every U.S. Customs officer I have ever dealt with Has been polite and curtious. Even with I came through the states a few months back, the officers I met at the border were nice and talkative, even when they searched the truck and car I was towing. The only problem with customs I've ever had actually was with the Candians, and our CFR's. "What province are you plates registered in?" While I'm driving a Milcots..  And this went on for a good 5 minutes.

Out of curiosity, how does coming and going across the border work with DND vehicles, weapons etc?

 

[George Wallace]

Out of curiosity, how does coming and going across the border work with DND vehicles, weapons etc?

Lots of paperwork. 

 

[Teflon]

police officers sometimes get rude and confrontational when dealing with people.

And still does not give the individual the RIGHT to not comply with the legal order of the LEO

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Oh you probably do, I wouldn't argue that.

There are people here with lots of experience in criminal courts. But the responses that were made indicate a lack of understanding on the civil court system. What I stated about the guy being fully within his rights to sue (and the fact that he DOES have a case as far as the civil courts are concerned) I wasn't expression my opinion. I know, everyone (myself included) likes to bash the ivory tower theorists who have little experience on 'the front lines' of whatever matter they are commenting on. However, sometimes it helps to get a view from someone looking at the whole picture and who isn't biased towards cop-hating (as so many often are). This is, of course, in response to my comments on LEO attitudes and the fact that SOME posters here refuse to acknowledge that police officers can do wrong, sometimes.

My examples aren't "book examples". All I argued was a) the guy has basis to sue and b) sometimes LEO's come across with a huge attitude problem. It is entirely real world, these cases DO happen and ARE won and police officers sometimes get rude and confrontational when dealing with people. No opinions here.   

For the record though, the guy deserved what he got and he's lucky he got away without serious criminal charges.

Anyone can sue, for anything. That's not a criteria. Will they win, that's another thing.

And still does not give the individual the RIGHT to not comply with the legal order of the LEO

What he said.

 

[chris_log]

And still does not give the individual the RIGHT to not comply with the legal order of the LEO

Really? Ya don't say. I never said that, quite the contrary, if you decide to ignore an LEO's order, it's your fault what happens next.

Still doesn't give them the right to act like a jerk.

Anyone can sue, for anything. That's not a criteria. Will they win, that's another thing.

As I said, I think he has a case under the rules of the civil court system. It doesn't mean I think he SHOULD win, I just think that he COULD win. Just like the woman who burned her crotch with a hot McDick's coffee, she had an ironclad case...even though everyone (myself included) thought it was the most pathetic piece of legal theater.