Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread

[Franko]

So if they turn around and force troops to wear it....are they going to retroactively issue it to all vets of every conflict that were wounded?

Thoughts?

 

[RHFC_piper]

So if they turn around and force troops to wear it....are they going to retroactively issue it to all vets of every conflict that were wounded?

Thoughts?

This aught to be interesting. 

There is a Col (ret) in my Regiments predecessor Regiments association group, the Highland Light Infantry of Canada, who was, during WW2, wounded, repatriated then returned to lead his unit across the Rhine where he was wounded a second time (Ref: Colonel Doug Barry)... he doesn't wear either of his wound stripes, and hasn't since the late 40's, when he decided it was a part of his life he didn't want to remember (I've had long, and very interesting conversations with him... for obvious reasons). 
He has an outstanding rack of medals, most, if not all, are from campaigns, conflicts, long service, valour and bravery... somehow, I doubt he would ever want to add a wound medal to that rack.

Some how, in my mind, this all seems like a silly and pointless idea... Why meddle with a system which is sufficient for the need. it just seems like posturing by politicians. Besides, how much resources were wasted on this? could these resources not been used for better purposes? 





On a personal note... I just got my GCS mounted... I don't want to have to pay for it to be remounted just because of a new medal I don't really want... 

 

[armyvern]

On a personal note... I just got my GCS mounted... I don't want to have to pay for it to be remounted just because of a new medal I don't really want... 

On that note, your first mounting of it, and any subsequent remounting of it which is required due to presentation of further medals and/or bars is fully reimburseable by the Crown.

 

[RHFC_piper]

On that note, your first mounting of it, and any subsequent remounting of it which is required due to presentation of further medals and/or bars is fully reimburseable by the Crown.

I should have added; Replica.  I'm not going to mount or wear any of my original medals. 

A soldier from my unit lost his original Bosnia medals 'cause someone grabbed his DEU jacket off the back of his chair at a Legion on Remembrance Day a few years back... I decided then that I would not wear original medals.



But, all this kinda brings up another point; for those of us who chose not to wear original medals, as well as those who have mess kit, how long is it going to take for replicas and minis of this new goofy medal to come out?  I figure it would take as long as it has for other relatively new medals (GCS, GSM, etc.)...  Just a thought.

 

[warrickdll]

...
...how long is it going to take for replicas and minis of this new goofy medal to come out?  I figure it would take as long as it has for other relatively new medals (GCS, GSM, etc.)...
...

“Goofy” seems a bit extreme (unless it actually ends up looking goofy); after all, it will solve your previously mentioned problem:

...
Also, with all this 'wound stripe' talk; some of us wounded in Afghanistan are Reservists in silly-hat-and-dress (Highland) regiments, and thusly wear uniforms where the current issue stripe does not.. um.. work well... uh.. fit... It looks silly.  Kind of like having it on Scarlets.  Anyway, the way my regiment wants to deal with it is using the old style gold braid, or Brass bar.  I think it's a little more distinguishing.  I'm thinking this may cause some issues with CF dress regs.
...

What does seem “goofy” is Canada having a medal for Southwest Asia (SWASM) and yet still awarding a “General” medal (either as the GCS or GSM).

 

[geo]

So if they turn around and force troops to wear it....are they going to retroactively issue it to all vets of every conflict that were wounded?

Thoughts?

1.  Troops in the past received a wound stripe.
2.  Whenever the CDS decrees that a sacrifice medal comes into force, new recipients will receive the sacrifice medal and not the wound stripe.
3.  The CDS & his advisors will determine how far back (if any) the CF will go to retroactively present medals

4.  From the tone of your post & comment - you aren't interested in receiving it - assuming you already have the stripe... so what are you worried about?

 

[RHFC_piper]

“Goofy” seems a bit extreme (unless it actually ends up looking goofy); after all, it will solve your previously mentioned problem:

Perhaps "goofy" is a little extreme...  But last I heard, they want to call this thing the "Crimson Maple Leaf".  A few months ago, there were some "artistic ideas" floating around on the web (haven't been able to find them again... if anyone has a source), but the majority of them looked like a red enamel maple leaf with a white/gold trim...  They mention it in this article: Link



Just a thought; If/when this medal comes into effect, would it have post nominals? or numbers/bars for subsequent wounds? 

What does seem “goofy” is Canada having a medal for Southwest Asia (SWASM) and yet still awarding a “General” medal (either as the GCS or GSM).

Heh... Well... I think what's worse is the bizarre criteria for the issue of the SWASM...  None of the guys in TF3-06 battle group got SWASMs, just the GCS (or nothing if they already had one), but the force protection platoon got the SWASM and the GCS... their reasoning for this made some sense; the Force protection guys got there 2 months before us and thus, were there before the hand over to NATO (or so I'm told) and so they fall under both commands for long enough to receive both medals... seems fair to me... but, a contracts clerk from my unit, who flew in with me, also received the SWASM and GCS (not a knock agains clerks... he's a good buddy of mine...) although he spent as much time in theater as anyone else in the battle group...  How does that work?



But, I digress. It's not about medals... and neither is this rant... its about the system of distribution. It's just confusing and will probably never cease to be confusing.

 

[HItorMiss]

CSA you cannot pick and choose what decorations you can wear once they are awarded.... Well not to my knowledge anyway.

I hate the medal but if I am given it I will wear because it's the rules.

 

[RHFC_piper]

CSA you cannot pick and choose what decorations you can wear once they are awarded.... Well not to my knowledge anyway.

This came up before in this thread...  It was the basis for debate.  Wound stripe: optional, Medal: Mandatory.

I hate the medal but if I am given it I will wear because it's the rules.

Agreed.

HoM; At least you can say you have yours as a result of enemy fire, while in combat... far more distinguished than a mere accident... or friendly fire.

I wear my wound stripe, for now, for only a few reasons;
- My CoC expects that I wear it. I'm sure that if I were with 1 RCR as part of the big R, I could just take the stripe and toss it in a drawer and no one would say a word about it, as there would be many others around me who have, most likely done the same... where as, there are only 2 people in my unit, who are active members, who have a wound stripe... and in a unit of 200, we're easy to find. So needless to say, the day my RSM found out I had a wound stripe issued, he was checking sleeves.

- It's small, inconspicuous and very few people actually know what it is and/or call attention to it.  Most people ask me if it for years of service... I usually respond with "yeah.. something like that..."  This way, I can avoid discussing it if I choose.

- I can remove it any time I want.  Once I'm medically fit to return to duty, I plan to move on to another trade in another element of the forces (as long as everything pans out) and I would rather not show up to a trades course with a wound stripe hanging off my sleeve.  And the GCS is an innocuous little medal issued to everyone who deploys to Afghanistan and no one will assume anything other than where I went in my PRes life. 
If things don't go as planned, and I stay in my unit, or "medically release", then I will have the choice to not wear the stripe... if it's a medal, it goes on my rack for all to see... in which case it might as well have a bar on it which reads "Accident". 

- In ceremonial dress, which I wear a lot, due to band functions and such, the left arm is pretty much covered by the Pipers Plaid (big tartan blanket worn around the body and over the left shoulder like a cape) anyway, so no one really sees it...  And I already have to wear my 1 medal close to the middle of my uniform, or it gets crushed by the pipes.

In summation; I agree with HoM.  I don't like the idea of drawing attention to something which may, in some cases, be quite embarrassing or depressing... But, if I am handed a medal to wear by my CoC I will wear it. I don't have to like it, I just have to do it.

Here is the article from CTV news.  Doesn't look like "political posturing", looks like an initiative by veterans.  I have also heard from various news sources (can't find links right now) that Mr. Bill Tanner of Chemical Warfare Agent Testing Recognition Program fame is a key supporter.  Interesting the pressure that veterans' lobby groups, particularly in our demographic situation where the Canadian population is greying, can apply.  Reminder also that this sort of thing would go nowhere if the CDS was not in favour of it, so are you now assessing him as a politician who is posturing?

Sometimes, ideas like this begin as well intentioned gestures by the caring and concerned people of the world, and are then corrupted by those who see an opportunity to gain.  I have already witnessed local politicians bicker and hen-peck at this topic as well as others (like "support the troops" ribbons on city/emergency vehicles.)  It always starts with; "we should do this to show our support." and usually ends up at; "my opponent doesn't believe our troops deserve support 'cause they don't support this idea..."
Starts off right, but then becomes a political pawn topic... even if it's subtle.
Now, don't get me wrong with all this; I don't blame those who came up with the original plan, they mean well, but, as they say; one bad apple spoils the bunch.

As for the CDS's involvement: when I found my way back up to Petawawa to drop in on some of my buddies from tour (as well as for the BOI briefing), I heard a lot of the same thing... the boys told me tails of meeting the CDS out in the front, and all the things he promised the boys when they came home; Wound medals, Combat badges, valour and bravery medals, extended leave, etc, etc... granted, the boys aren't dumb, and they took all this with a grain of salt... but some of them were pretty upset when none of it happened.  Now, this is no slag against the CDS, lord knows I love the man and would follow him into the 10 level of hell armed only with a sword made of ice, but if you think he doesn't play the politics card, at his level... well.. c'mon...  (it is, in the end, for the benefit of the forces.) Especially at that point in the tour, when more and more wounded were coming home, and we had fought in some pretty big fights, the people at home became restless... natural recourse is to try to settle the masses, while raising moral with the troops.

Keep in mind, the majority of politics happens outside of the government (meaning there is more politics in the work place than in the house of commons.).

Anyway, it is of no consequence.  If there is, indeed, an new medal for getting wounded, and it is to replace the wound stripe (or not), I will give it the due attention it deserves and wear it like any other accoutrement I wear on my silly highland uniform covered in band bling... just another shiny thing on a fancy wool garb.

   

 

[Jarnhamar]

So no one will be receiving the SWASM anymore?

 

[Franko]

4.  From the tone of your post & comment - you aren't interested in receiving it - assuming you already have the stripe... so what are you worried about?

Tone? There was no tone at all, just a question. Don't have a stripe either FYI.

A wound stripe is not mandatory to wear, a medal is.

My worries are this.......how are my troops that have the stripe going to react when I, or others in the CoC, tell them to put on their medal?

Regards

 

[Reccesoldier]

CSA you cannot pick and choose what decorations you can wear once they are awarded.... Well not to my knowledge anyway.

I hate the medal but if I am given it I will wear because it's the rules.

Most definitely NOT true.  There is not a single article in CFP 200 that states ANY medal MUST be worn. 

While I disagree with the concept of this new medal I am more than a little miffed at the attitudes that are being expressed here.  Perhaps it is because of my former association with DH&R but I will say this. 

Should this medal be approved, and this is not written in stone yet as far as I know , and should anyone else "Know", that information should have been held as "medals in confidence" until the paperwork was signed by the GG.  At any rate, the medal will not be some sort of cheap chocolate Christmas coin.  I have personally seen the proposed design for the proposed medal (and worked for the guy that drew it) and it is neither ugly, nor tacky.

Take a look at the improvements done to medals in the last number of years.  The SSM, originally a cheap looking blurred chrome mess has been tidy'd up to make the entire medal look crisper , with more detail.  Same goes for the CD, the new ones are made at the Royal Canadian Mint and are of a much higher quality than those before it.  Compare your old one to a new one and you will see the difference right away.

Hell, the entire medals system has been overhauled in the last few years, and the creation of Directorate of Honours and Recognition as its own directorate sends a message as to DND's recognition of the importance of recognition.  Gone are the days when one lone guy was the CF Medals distribution section, and it took a year or more to get your gong.

Basically there are a lot of people here talking out of their butts, agree or disagree with the medal, that is your prerogative but the rest is speculation and in many cases it disparages the work of some truly fine people..

@Piper, your CoC can "expect" you to wear your wound stripe but you are in no way compelled to do so.

 

[Journeyman]

CSA you cannot pick and choose what decorations you can wear once they are awarded.... Well not to my knowledge anyway.

Most definitely NOT true.  There is not a single article in CFP 200 that states ANY medal MUST be worn.  

Well, Reccesoldier has provided what I believe to be the DS solution (I trust his DHH advice -- although I didn't know of the name change or the fact that you're now "former" ).

And, bear in mind that I've spent my whole career being the "before picture" for dress & deportment, parade-square BS.....

But I have all my gongs mounted, since they tend to be worn only on Rememberance Day (and an increasing number of military funerals) and the Mess Kit, which is all about looking pretty. For the DEU-shirt type ribbons, however, I have only my tour ribbons. I don't bother with the CD or the other non-tour ribbons (incl the peacekeeping medal awarded for already having a tour medal  : ). Why? Because only the tour medals matter to me. Occasionally someone will ask why I don't have even a CD (especially if I'm wearing any other wings, fish badges, etc)...but even that is usually from the senior officers with only CD/Golden Jube/125th Anniv....

RHFC Piper, and any others wringing their hands over a not-yet-issued award, wear what you want (out of those that you are entitled to wear).
It's just a freakin' BADGE

But that's just me.

 

[tomahawk6]

This is an emotional issue because it flies in the face of tradition. The Purple Heart is our oldest medal and if it were to be replaced by a Wound Stripe there would be a huge outcry. NDHQ shouldnt be opening this Pandora's box and they need to shut this concept down ASAP for the sake of maintaining tradition.

 

[warrickdll]

This is an emotional issue because it flies in the face of tradition. The Purple Heart is our oldest medal and if it were to be replaced by a Wound Stripe there would be a huge outcry. NDHQ shouldnt be opening this Pandora's box and they need to shut this concept down ASAP for the sake of maintaining tradition.

The US use of a medal for those wounded would be an example in the opposite direction.

The medal uses indirect lineage to the 18th century award; and its current use replaced the US wound stripe of the First World War.

The indirect lineage was a great idea; linking past to present. I would hope that we have done something similar by linking it in some way to the memento Memorial Cross.

 

[c4th]

The indirect lineage was a great idea; linking past to present. I would hope that we have done something similar by linking it in some way to the memento Memorial Cross.

It appears to me that the lineage is well in tact.  Wound stripes were issued in both WWI and WWII to Canadians (by the thousands.)

This forum had an excellent discussion on the matter seven years ago:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3021.0.html

If it isn't broken...

 

[HItorMiss]

Reccesoldier

Just so were clear I don't know anything about the design nor do I think it will be a give away or chocolate coin giveaway/look alike. I just personally happen to disagree with moving from the wound stripe to a medal on historical and personal level. My wound stripe is small understated something that even now with so many us wearing them is still little known about. I can talk about what it means should I choose to or not to those who ask what it is. However a Medal is a different story I think  many Canadians will know what it is (Like Americans with the Purple Heart) and as such take a very personal thing and makes it public.

Having worked in DH&R do you know where the regs on regarding the wearing on awards (Medals, wound stripes...etc etc.) As I have been looking and basically have only found when awarded where it is to be worn and how. I was informed when asking about my wound stripe and told by my CoC that if it's given you wear it cut and dry. Hence my comment about not being allowed to pick a choose which awards you wear. I would be very intrested in seeing the rules because even in looking at the regs for the wound stripe (A distinction not an award per say)the regs never said that once awarded it that it could be not worn.


As you can see this is a both a confusing and a personal issue to many persons in the CF. Do I want a new medal, nope not at all. Hell I don't want a wound stripe really but the one thing my wound stripe does for me is in my thoughts is link me in a very tangible way back to those who were wounded in service of Canada, The Common Wealth and the Queen in many past conflicts (WW1, WW2 etc etc) and that well I guess it just makes me feel connected to a very exclusive club no one wants to be a member of by choice. I accept that I could be a minority in my thinking but those who I have talked to about this, people with wound stripes from different mission not just the current one, seem to agree with myself on it. I guess it comes down to why fix it if it is not broke?

Alright long rambling thoughts if I am confusing or not clear please tell me and I will attempt the clarify.

 

[geo]

Tone? There was no tone at all, just a question. Don't have a stripe either FYI.
A wound stripe is not mandatory to wear, a medal is.
My worries are this.......how are my troops that have the stripe going to react when I, or others in the CoC, tell them to put on their medal?
Regards

RBD,
sorry if I came across wrong....
Given that the gong is something that is coming down from NDHQ and the criteria for it's award has not been published, anything I might suggest is only conjecture.  give or take another month and we should know something about it.

 

[PB]

Not sure if we have received updates on the possible wound medal to replace the stripe, anyone in the know please fill in. I feel that it would be nice to pay proper respect to these outstanding troops, but also agree with our history being held tight. On the fence.
As for the Combat Badge, although I can see by the posts being shut down, I have to politely disagree with moderators on this one. The biggest argument against is that India C/S just need there tour medals, and everyone that counts will know. I do not see this as a strong argument. First of all, in this 360 degree war, there are other trades involved in this combat. Medics, truckers, E C/S, MPs, Arty, INT, Navy EOD, Sigs (Army and Navy). These troops are all outside the wire, on the front line, getting shot at, shooting back, and getting blown up from time to time. During certain battles ( 03 Aug 06) some of these non India C/S fought bitterly, alongside our Infantry. Here is the kicker. Did you know that the Swasm with bar is worn by hundreds of sailors who have (no disrespect intended, just a different job) sailed the Seas over there in support, but never even seen Afghanistan. I do not see this as a fair comparsion, with the combat support in the field, who had to return fire, with sailors at sea. On parade there would be no visual difference between a sailor with two combat tours, to a sailor with one, at sea, tour. To me this is a no brainer, but of course, everyone is entitled to their view. Full respect given to Infantry of course, Cheers.

 

[vonGarvin]

If you look at a World War Two veteran, and if you see the "standard five" medals (39-45 star, France/Germany Star, Defence Medal, 'Victory' medal and CVSM), you wouldn't have a clue where he served.  It mattered not.  From the photo interpretor who analysed photos of the beach that became Juno, to the Bren Gunner who was shot down on that same beach, they all did their part.

My $0.02.