Russia's Mistral class LHDs: updates
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Spencer100
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HMCS Dieppe
HMCS Juno Beach
Both in France and both amphibious ops.
HMCS Juno Beach
Both in France and both amphibious ops.
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Old Sweat said:
I dunno. The "Hero" class patrol boats were a surprise in naming convention. If they purchase these, they are likely to be expensive, useless boondoggles, so how about HMCS Chretien and HMCS McGuinty?
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Spencer100 said:
Wouldn't this name be in bad taste, considering the horrendous losses the Brits and Canadian troops suffered at the 1942 Dieppe landings? So much went wrong with that operation...such as the fact that the Calgary Tank unit's Churchill tanks were not prepared to fight on the the gravel beach and all were knocked out.
Isn't the naming convention for warships, that happened be named for battles, require that these battles be clear victories? (E.g. The British battleship HMS Ramillies, named after a British victory during the War of Spanish Succession in the 1700s)
Oldgateboatdriver
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People often talk of warships "naming convention". To say that such "conventions" exist is actually an exaggeration. There are no fast rules written down anywhere and naming is more often than not just a whim of the current leadership (for example, the Harper government's love affair with anything 1812 that will give us two supply ships bearing battle names from that war even though they have no Naval connection or historical naval usage connected to it).
HMCS BONAVENTURE was named after an Island near Gaspé because it was a bird sanctuary. Obviously, someone thought that was both Canadian and whimsical.
During WWII, the Prince's three (HMCS PRINCE DAVID, HMCS PRINCE HENRY and HMCS PRINCE ROBERT) were so named not after real princes, but after the three sons of the Head of Canadian National Steamship, from whom they were taken over for conversion to AMC's.
The British gave their Flower class corvettes actual flower names on the odd thinking that it would be morally frustrating for the Warlike ego of German officers to know that had been sunk by Rose, or Tulip or Petunia, etc.
All I know is that, if I were to command a ship named after the Dieppe raid, I would certainly feel extra pressure to make sure that I never, ever, participate in any future mission that would appear to me to be so doomed.
HMCS BONAVENTURE was named after an Island near Gaspé because it was a bird sanctuary. Obviously, someone thought that was both Canadian and whimsical.
During WWII, the Prince's three (HMCS PRINCE DAVID, HMCS PRINCE HENRY and HMCS PRINCE ROBERT) were so named not after real princes, but after the three sons of the Head of Canadian National Steamship, from whom they were taken over for conversion to AMC's.
The British gave their Flower class corvettes actual flower names on the odd thinking that it would be morally frustrating for the Warlike ego of German officers to know that had been sunk by Rose, or Tulip or Petunia, etc.
All I know is that, if I were to command a ship named after the Dieppe raid, I would certainly feel extra pressure to make sure that I never, ever, participate in any future mission that would appear to me to be so doomed.
Colin Parkinson
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or HMS Pansy ;D
I can imagine the jokes abounding about HMCS Dogwood, HMCS Lady Slipper (Provincial flowers)
I can imagine the jokes abounding about HMCS Dogwood, HMCS Lady Slipper (Provincial flowers)
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All kidding aside, there may be some real practical reasons to explore this option.
We might be able to get them at a discount, and further induce the French to support our ship builders by buying vessels from them as an offset. Of course the later may prove problematic given the strong French ship-worker's unions.
We might be able to get them at a discount, and further induce the French to support our ship builders by buying vessels from them as an offset. Of course the later may prove problematic given the strong French ship-worker's unions.
Colin Parkinson
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These ships will be 8 years old by the time we even build anything to compete with them.
HMCS SEDNA
HMCS SGA'NA
Inuit and Haida dieties of the sea. There might be some cultural sensitivities to negotiate around, but also good opportunities for more FN engagement with the RCN.
Realistically can we afford to operate two LHD's?
I think that a Mistral would give Canada a level of "middle power" projection that we haven't had since BONAVENTURE was paid off.
HMCS SGA'NA
Inuit and Haida dieties of the sea. There might be some cultural sensitivities to negotiate around, but also good opportunities for more FN engagement with the RCN.
Realistically can we afford to operate two LHD's?
I think that a Mistral would give Canada a level of "middle power" projection that we haven't had since BONAVENTURE was paid off.
And where in the budget or in defense planning is the money to equip the flight deck? We don't have assault helicopters per se and our current squadrons are already spoken for. We don't have nor have we ordered enough a/c to equip even one. Perhaps a ski jump can be affixed to enable F35 operations. Might as well dream big
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YZT580 said:
We would support NATO operations and provide a platform for NATO Assets to fly off of. Eventually we might decide to replace the Griffons with a helicopters that can operate in marine environment. As I recall the Chinooks can land on the deck of the Mistrials?
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Colin P said:
Weren't WW2 RCN Flower class corvettes actually named after towns and cities?
e.g.
HMCS Chilliwack
HMCS Kamloops
Source: Shipcraft Special: Flower Class Corvettes by John Lambert - modelling book that also features a history of the whole class
Oldgateboatdriver
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Yes, WWII Canadian corvettes bore towns and cities names. In fact, this is the tradition that the RCN resuscitated with the Halifax's, then the MCDV's, and has now been abandoned by the Harper government with the new AOR's (or whatever they will be classified as). But the Brits actually named them after flowers, hence the class name.
And YZT580, that is the beauty of these ships: You don't need to "equip" the flight deck. The CF already have all sorts of things that could fly from them depending on the actual mission. Exercise in the Arctic? Put a bunch of Griffon's onboard. Little training required. Big ASW ex in the Atlantic: Put half a dozen Sea kings (or their replacement, if ever
). Civilian EVAC from a civil war zone? Load the Chinooks. etc.
As far as the Navy is concerned, smaller crew than a frigate and lesser operating costs.
And, yes, you could operate F-35 B's from them, but with reduced load as, as is at least, you have to do short run take-offs or vertical ones without ski-jump assistance.
And YZT580, that is the beauty of these ships: You don't need to "equip" the flight deck. The CF already have all sorts of things that could fly from them depending on the actual mission. Exercise in the Arctic? Put a bunch of Griffon's onboard. Little training required. Big ASW ex in the Atlantic: Put half a dozen Sea kings (or their replacement, if ever
). Civilian EVAC from a civil war zone? Load the Chinooks. etc.As far as the Navy is concerned, smaller crew than a frigate and lesser operating costs.
And, yes, you could operate F-35 B's from them, but with reduced load as, as is at least, you have to do short run take-offs or vertical ones without ski-jump assistance.
Colin Parkinson
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MilEME09 said:
I wonder if they could carry a couple of Chinooks internally without their blades on and bring them up the lift? In which case it could deliver them to the theater and they could operate off of them as required. Also would the Cyclones fit the hanger/lift? You could see the Griffons replaced with a combination of marine ASW cyclones and non-naval Cyclones/S-92's as troop carriers
The stern elevator has a 13 ton lift capacity which could accomodate an empty CH-47. The area of the elevator is 225 m^2 which I take to be 15mx15m. If part of the CH-47 were hanging over the stern(about 2 or 3 meters) then the size of the elevator would allow a CH-47(without blades) to be moved.
Bearpaw
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Would a troop carrying version of the Cyclone fit without the blades folded? What would the French be using on this thing as a medium lift? the NH90?
Happy Guy
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Good article as to why Canada should not buy a Mistral class ship: http://www.cdfai.org/idevicepapers/PuttingtheCartbeforetheHorse.htm
- core capabilities of the RCN needs to be rebuilt first: loss of the AORs and the loss of there Iroquois class destroyers has led to a significant degrdation of the RCN's ability to fulfill its responsibilities
- there are no RCN ships that can be devoted to escorting and protecting a Mistral class ship
- cost of fully equiping a Mistral class ship will be extremely high (additional helicopters, trained crew, maintenance and operating costs) and not affordable considering the current budget
The NSPS is under funded, behind schedule with no visible progress. The DND procurement history by this current government is rather dismal. This brings into question whether even the government is even able to produce a first-class, modern military that is well trained, well equipped and ready to take on the challenges of the 21st century.
The government needs to concentrate on just building the surface combatant ships, AORs and the Arctic patrol ships and when this is done perhaps look at buying a Mistral class ship.
However I grant you that it is nice day dream to have well equiped navy again.
- core capabilities of the RCN needs to be rebuilt first: loss of the AORs and the loss of there Iroquois class destroyers has led to a significant degrdation of the RCN's ability to fulfill its responsibilities
- there are no RCN ships that can be devoted to escorting and protecting a Mistral class ship
- cost of fully equiping a Mistral class ship will be extremely high (additional helicopters, trained crew, maintenance and operating costs) and not affordable considering the current budget
The NSPS is under funded, behind schedule with no visible progress. The DND procurement history by this current government is rather dismal. This brings into question whether even the government is even able to produce a first-class, modern military that is well trained, well equipped and ready to take on the challenges of the 21st century.
The government needs to concentrate on just building the surface combatant ships, AORs and the Arctic patrol ships and when this is done perhaps look at buying a Mistral class ship.
However I grant you that it is nice day dream to have well equiped navy again.
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