Russian, what do think?

[Recce41]

It was really the Germains that were to give the tanks, for the Gulf. Their troops could not leave Germany due to their constitution, states no Combat troops can be employed outside of Germain soil. The US were going to give us the M60s back in the late 70s to early 80s. Our Dumbies turned down appro. 314 Leo 2s from the Germains. A friend of mine‘s Father in Law works for Kaof Maffit, sorry for the spelling. This would help them sell them. The total was full tanks and parts to make up that #. to go to the Gulf.

 

[Harry]

Okay, now that we are on the same net. Lets be realistic. Random thoughts of whimsical or random comments of fact.

For someone to jump into a subject like this, keep it in the memory banks that maybe, just maybe there is a Master of UFI out there who will engage you, even at long range.

Harry - Out

UBIQUE :skull:

 

[Harry]

Welcome back reality.

Okay guys good stuff. Lets get into the game.

:bullet: First: Russian equipment. Why not, cheap, functional, Arctic proven.

Pretty damn simple (KISS). I have been a proponent of the open bid system for years. I threw that idea at a former Bge Comd in Germany. he laughed and said it would never fly unless Quebec separated and bid on defence contracts as a foreign entity.

It works for the Finns, why not us. Draft up a requirement and put it out to tender. Off the shelf at cost.

:bullet: :bullet: Second: The tank question, I was one of the collators who worked on the briefing sheet for the C of C. The Germans wanted us to remain in Europe and under the guise of our commitment to 7 German Corp they made the offer to one for one our Leo 1‘s for 1st gen Leo 2‘s. This was not a send German equipment to the Gulf, it was keep Canada in Europe deal. By then the CF was preparing to pack it‘s bags and go home. The Privy Council shot it down quickly as it would have tied us into a long term NATO/German relationship. Just the opposite of the political movement of that minute.

The Americans then tried to capitulate the process and stepped up to the plate with their offer. It was as I described pretty straightforward. They wanted us as active participants of the Gulf War. Logistically it was a sweat deal for them. Replace our equipment in situ CFE, have us deploy as a nation. At the end of the day we would have shipped the stuff back to Canada and soldiered on. The US would have saved a phenomenal amount of coin just in shipping and freight too and from and there would have been a larger order of battle for the war.

If anyone wants a funny, back in the days of the Centurions, there was a deal cut for their disposal. Anyone else here know the rest of the story.

UBIQUE

 

[onecat]

Harry

I don‘t the deal, but please to tell.

"If anyone wants a funny, back in the days of the Centurions, there was a deal cut for their disposal. Anyone else here know the rest of the story"

 

[Harry]

Centurions, and not the breast plate wearing kind that were some of our instructors.

As the Leo program came on line, disposal of the Centurions was a pretty clear issue. It was expected that due to their age a simple trip to a local foundry would aleviate us of our venerable but wholly antiquated tanks.

Low and behold a little country in the Middle East needed some armor. The Americans saw a golden opportunity to supply armor to the Israeli’s. Armor that could not be traced to the US. The US had been trying since 1964 to sort this issue out and after a couple of close calls decided to make it happen.

Deals were struck in smoke filled rooms and the tanks from Germany were quietly placed on ships to be returned to Canada. However, this ship was then reported to be proceeding to Israel. The Arab League went to he Security Council and said ship-reversed course and returned to Bremerhaven.

What too do. Well, here is the rest of the story.

The Swiss were in the middle of beefing up their homeland defences. A deal was struck wherein they purchased the turrets and placed them into static fortified positions through out Switzerland. The now demobilized hulls were declared farming equipment and exported to Israel.

For the AFV gods amongst us, who can recall the pictures of the Israeli armor sporting a hull that looked like a Centurion and a turret of the T-55 or 62 family? The Israeli’s would remove Arab armor from the battlefield that had serviceable turrets and place them on their new farm pieces.

Many of those home made systems have since been retired with newer armor, but watch the news, those Centurion hulls are still rumbling around as command vehicles, heavy support APC’s and a couple have been shown lately with a new Israeli designed 105mm turret.

The difference from the Brit supplied and the Canadian farm pieces is simple. The Brit Centurians stayed in the original config with only slight mods over time and retained in War Stock. The Canuck chasis have been the ones used for R&D projects etc.

Who whudda thunk there was a Canadian connection?

 

[Zoomie]

Now that‘s what I call a good story. The problem I will face Harry, is that if I try and tell it to someone else, they won‘t believe me. Then I get a repeat performance of what happened earlier on in this thread.
Sounds sorta familiar to the rumours of what happened to HMCS Bonaventure (Canada‘s last aircraft carrier). It was supposedly scrapped, yet some swear that they saw it flying Indian colours in the years after....

 

[onecat]

What about the French producted Leclare? I‘ve read some good points about it use, but what there any poster here with more info on actual use so I would like to get their opnion on the Leclare for possible CF use. I‘m sure France would be happy to have another Nato country using there stuff.

Maybe it would be better if we just bought more LAVIII‘s and gunned with 105‘s. I‘ve read the US is looking at that option, and seeing as we don‘t have heavy lift how get we any new Tanks to the action in time. At least with the LAV‘s there‘s a chance of fast deployment.

 

[Harry]

The Bonnie went to the beach scrappers and the mysterious Indian Naval vessel was in fact the Vikrant. Vey similar in appearance. My father was on board prior to leaving the Navy and when the saw this gem on the seas, they blew a gasket as the rumour was it was the Bonnie.

Sorry to say, but the baby was converted to commercial goods. Now, if we want war stories. The 40 mm Boffons, (singles)my grandfather operated them in WW II, my father in the 60-79‘s and I in the 80‘s. The Ones in Germany did come off the Bonnie.

The Centurions, pretty easy to track if you have the time. Send off a letter to the Israelis and ask for the origins and serial numbers of their Centurion fleet. The battle tanks of Brit origin maintained right of line for war stock, and the Canuck were ‘Extra‘s‘ so to speak and were used for various mod‘s and projects.

The Swiss will similarily have no prob releasing this info now as well. The had a superb Centurion fleet and the turrets were a bonus as it allowed their static gunners to train with the tracked guys.

It‘s out there, just how much time do you have to do research. Even a lot of the US doc‘s of the day are slowly becoming open source, heck their are some on the net now. Try Israeli Tanks Centurion.

And don‘t even go near the LAV 3‘s with guns, egads. Next up will be selling cookies door to door to buy blue berets and pay for camping trips.

Ciao for now.

 

[Zoomie]

Once again Harry I am impressed.

Here‘s another one for you to put to rest. Anyone that has spent some time at Gagetown has heard of the rumoured MBT (be it Leo or Centurion) that bogged down in a swamp and was unrecoverable. Any truth to this?
Unlike the M113 at Meaford that was dug up by a CLC course some years back, I believe there is no tangible prove on this matter.
Maestro, the floor is yours...

 

[Recce41]

The only true one is there was a old Sherman, sunk out by Vails Pt in my Dads day . I think the Engs and REMEs recovered that in the 80s. As for Gagetown there were vehs out there in the bogs down by the Lawfield OP and some by Lost Lake, a Swamp not on the Map. Most are recovered in Winter. But some sink and are left. I almost lost a Lynx there, it sank over the cupola. It take two Leos and the ARV to pull it out.

 

[Zoomie]

I know the story about the M113 just west of 5 fingers at Meaford. Apparently it had been carrying a load of WP mortor rounds (or something along those lines) when a fire broke out. The only way to put out the fire was to bury it in the sand and leave it there. A couple of years (or decades) later, a course load of soldiers dug it by accident. Range control managed to drag it to where it sits now (just west of 5 fingers, south of box woods) where it sits, half melted and surrounded by razor-wire.
Talking about Meaford brings up some other good stories. Had a old crusty WO in the unit who went far enough back that he personally positioned some of those old tanks on the range. He said that he took his ol‘ c/s and put it in the low ground, so that it wouldn‘t be hit. I wouldn‘t be surprised, I have driven down the old battle run track down range and seen lots of interesting old relics.

 

[Harry]

The old Centurion in Lawfield story. Rumor, yes, fact partially. Was recovered in the manner so described by Recce.

Reality, a Centurion went turtle about 8 k South of where the Armored have the Worthington tank farm. It flipped in the ditch and to my knowledge the driver drowned. Based on old Gag town Range Control myths, stories and other beer drinking personas‘.

It rates up there with the towed 155 that was found out there and was believed lost by the Mericans. Rumor.

What it was attributed to was the big towed 155 that W Bty had in their compound for DCIEM I believe. An MWO, no names no pack drill told that one to a Mountie and in true fashion, stories of missing helicopters, tanks, 5/4‘s etc started to surface. Now lets be honest, if a piece of kit went missing out there, don‘t you think there would be greater folklore based stories than that. Rumor.

Same mountie we managed to snow ball when the T-72‘s arrived at CTC. Boy did we have fun with that. Had him convinced that the Canadian Army was secretly buying Russian equipment and hiding it in Gag town so our allies wouldn‘t know. Had him convinced that there where all kinds of storage facilities in the training area. Took him for a ride out Worthington one night via Petersville to show him the secret stash. Hook, line and sinker.

Then there are the stories of AVGP‘s sinking. Too my knowledge, only one has sunk, at the fording sight on the Saint John.

Now there is also the story of W Bty almost losing their 109‘s many moons ago in Lawfield. Pretty darn close to paddy material. It had neen raining long and hard, the Battery pulled into a gun line and once the spades were backed onto, they all started to settle. True.

I hung a 113 up in that area in ‘89 and it slowly slid off the boulder we high centered on when we finally filled up the back end with water and mud. The Inf School was none to pleased and neither where we. We had to pull the floor boards to get the mud out. It was packed in enough that the ramp wouldn‘t lower. We cleared out around 9 PM on a Friday night just in time to catch our flip to Germany.

 

[toms3]

WOW...Recce41. I just finished catching up on this tread. This started out as a light hearted converstation, talking about Russian Tanks and aircraft...and you manage to do some BASHING. Do you feel better afterwards?

You have done something that very few people manage to do (Zoomie can vouch)...you have pissed me off with your comments. I am sick of it. Bashing the Reserves or Regs is a waist of time. Your way of thinking has got to go with the dinosours. Its a disease that‘s like rot in my opinion!!

Harry...your CTC Gagetown story....if I remember correctly there is a momument at the site of the Centurion flip. But of course the story on base is that all in the Tank parished.

 

[Recce41]

OOOO. Digger
I was not bashing anyone, its like this. People get on these forms and shoot their mouth off with no clue. About what they are talking about Find people make mistakes, misinformed. But when you ( not you directly) get on and blab about how this is and that is. With less time in than most regs have on leave, I think shut the F^&* up.
So slow down take a Midol.

 

[toms3]

Come on...Recce41..I have spent time in both sides of the service....I have met plenty of guys...both Regs and Res that don‘t know jack. So...in my opinion, sure, go ahead and bitch because they don‘t know what they are talking about, but who cares where they come from....not me!!

Oh...bye the way....HA...ME....take a Midol....(actually that was funny, I just about pissed my Depends diaper).
Put your teeth back in, your spitting on me.....and don‘t forget to drink your warm milk.

Anyway...I will get the next round...cheers

 

[Recce41]

Good one!
I do have a dental plate, by the way HAHA.

 

[Zoomie]

Ok, now that Digger and Recce41 have sorta made up and are good pals (sorta), let‘s continue this thread.

Perhaps the long-in-the-tooth members can comment on the whole "never sleep under your c/s" rule. Rumour has it that someone, somewhere did exactly that and woke up with their tank slowly sinking down around them. A sobering topic indeed, any truth in the matter?

 

[armd_recce]

Re the Centurion story (if we‘re talking about the same one) It happened about 4km west of WTP, at the intersection of Hampsted and W Jerusalem when the tank rolled into Barnet brook. GL 147512 if you have a map handy. There‘s a cairn there marking the loc - it was a tank from the LdSH (RC) and indeed all inside died when it rolled and exit wasn‘t possible.
Now... rumour based off that story is that this was the reason the Corps was adamant about having an escape hatch on the bottom of the hull on the next tank. Did the Centurion in fact not have one?

PS all the info on the roll is on the cairn, could be confirmed if anyone feels like running down to the site and reporting back =)

 

[toms3]

Yep...thats the one. Drove by it many times on course...and that is the story the instructor told me....never had time to stop and read the cairn.

 

[Harry]

Now, isn‘t this a much better use of this forum instead of he said, she said.

I don‘t mind a little rumor mongering when there is an outcome like this, but flat out off the tip of your tongue.

Hmm, M-60‘s, never. The Leo program was just being completed and if you compare apples to oranges, for our NATO role, the M-60 rumour that is purported here, would put it right around the time we where really happy with the Leo, especially the A-3 was a lesser bread for NATO Ops (too darn high).