ROTP after High School Questions

[benny88]

There are two options for cadets of different environments without a matching environmental reserve unit.  Either they can, from the outset, be only allowed to choose a university with the proper environmental reserve unit in its vicinity...

Snakedoc, I think your post is well thought out, but I strongly disagree with this. Canada doesn't have enough universities to accomodate that. Some programs are rare or unique. My program, for instance is Aviation, along with 10 or 12 other OCdts, it's a unique program in Canada, but there's no Air Force unit in sight.

 

[SMP]

Thus providing an endless supply of bottom level officers and subalterns who depart after a relatively short period and limiting their pool of their own promotable leaders.

Units have limited numbers of positions for Jr Officers as it is.

Let alone the confusion it would cause on the financial side of the units. Every time there is a range weekend or an ex, members don't really go for free, and there are more costs than for just salary. There are set budgets for R&Q, ammo, fuel, etc., for each unit, based on numbers within the PRes unit. To just "compensate" for the trg costs won't work.

As I've stated before, many people in university are not in programs which go 0900hrs - 1600hrs each day. I have 18 hours of class each week,plus 16 hours of clinical time in the hospital; in addition research, assignments, studying, and maintaning my personal level of fitness.  I don't get to choose any of my classes, or my practicum times. I might do an 8 hour shift in an evening, or have to be up at 0600hrs some mornings to go to clinical. I could only imagine how much my stress level would increase having to attend trg each week, or weekends for that matter. My academic performance would decrease, as well as my sleep and health in general. If anybody else has experienced being a reservist in an infantry unit and doing a science degree concurrently, they will likely understand where I am coming from.

Let's safe the sleep deprivation from weekend ex's for the summer courses, and get through our educations with high achievement.  
We'll have plenty of time after we graduate to experience the military life. Savour your time at a Civi U and don't wish the time away.

 

[dimsum]

Snakedoc, I think your post is well thought out, but I strongly disagree with this. Canada doesn't have enough universities to accomodate that. Some programs are rare or unique. My program, for instance is Aviation, along with 10 or 12 other OCdts, it's a unique program in Canada, but there's no Air Force unit in sight.

Some things about the CF can be learned no matter what element your "unit" is.  I was in UWO Aviation as well, and paraded at HMCS PREVOST as a MARS officer.  Even if you aren't in that element, there are general things about the CF (administration/mess life) that junior officers seem to get thrown into without enough knowledge/training.  While doing paperwork one night a week doesn't seem like a lot of fun, you can learn a lot of other things while you're at it.  

The way I see it, the chances you work in a pure AF/Army/Navy setting will be pretty slim in the long run...might as well know how the other elements work.

 

[benny88]

Some things about the CF can be learned no matter what element your "unit" is.  I was in UWO Aviation as well, and paraded at HMCS PREVOST as a MARS officer.  Even if you aren't in that element, there are general things about the CF (administration/mess life) that junior officers seem to get thrown into without enough knowledge/training.  While doing paperwork one night a week doesn't seem like a lot of fun, you can learn a lot of other things while you're at it.  

The way I see it, the chances you work in a pure AF/Army/Navy setting will be pretty slim in the long run...might as well know how the other elements work.

Very true, and I agree. I only made the post because it was suggested that Civvy-U OCdts only be allowed to attend Universities with reserve units of the right element close by. I agree that many of the ropes can be learned in any element.

 

[chris_log]

Again;

The issue is mainly the forcing of legions of young, untrained officers on units with LIMITED positions for junior officers and little time (and money, and resources) to waste on training and employing someone who they won't have for very long and most likely isn't in a trade normally part of that unit. Reserve units already have a task to accomplish with their limited resources, they don't need the added strain of being 'St Jean lite' (as thats all the 'army' skills many OCdt's have) or 'Gagetown lite' for a bunch of OCdt's.

And, there is little to be gained (in comparison to the time, money and resources expended) in placing air force and army guys in navy reserve units, navy guys in army units etc. An army or navy reserve unit IS NOT like a regular force joint unit (like an HQ). So these kids won't be learning 'joint' stuff, they'll be stuck in the OR shuffling paper. A bunch of different colored uniforms does not make a 'joint' unit or give anyone a 'joint' experience. ROTP types have already 'learned the ropes' at St Jean. Reserve units don't spend their weekend doing 5 man small party taskings building a mod tent, neither do they stand around doing drill by squads (unless there is a parade coming up). The stuff that could be learned in a reserve unit (section attacks for infantry guys, convoys for log types, driving a boat for the navy guys etc) is stuff that alot of guys couldn't participate in due to lack of training. 

It's a bad idea, hence why it was never seriously considered.

Also;

There are two options for cadets of different environments without a matching environmental reserve unit.  Either they can, from the outset, be only allowed to choose a university with the proper environmental reserve unit in its vicinity; or they can be attached posted to a unit of a different environment.

In regards to the comment about restricting access only to universities in areas with reserve units....you all do realise that MANY of the civvie-u ROTP types are guys joining in their second or third year and wouldn't be willing to transfer schools so late in their academic career. 

Having 12 or so OCdt's in a small militia unit is fine, as long as there are more NCM's then there are officers.  If anything this gives the cadets a chance to put on their uniform and help out any way they can at the unit (even if it means supporting the wardroom/officer's mess lol).

It's not fine. It's a waste of everyone's time. I'd rather not just 'put on the uniform' if all I'm going to do is come in, play with the mess' paperwork and then leave (and there's already people doing that).

Also some sort of standardized training program may need to be developed from the people that run the ROTP program or they can be just integrated into the training of other reserve officers.  Often the issue at reserve units is more the fact that there arn't enough officers..rather than too much.

No, no...there are usually enough officers at reserve units. The problem is getting enough troops to fill the ranks.

 

[Snakedoc]

Thus providing an endless supply of bottom level officers and subalterns who depart after a relatively short period and limiting their pool of their own promotable leaders.

I don't know about endless supply but I do agree that some sort of capacity increase would have to occur and this is something that can be worked out between the people that run the ROTP program and the reserve units (possibly in the form of a standardized training plan or program as I mentioned earlier).  ROTP cadets should be at the same unit for at least 3-4 years so this is not a relatively short period as many reserve officers arn't even around for that long since they change units, go on deployment etc.  Having people guaranteed to be around for 4 years may be actually nice in terms of continuity.  This would also not limit a reserve units pool of own promotable leaders as the ROTP cadets should be in addition to the units current compliment of officers.

Snakedoc, I think your post is well thought out, but I strongly disagree with this. Canada doesn't have enough universities to accomodate that. Some programs are rare or unique. My program, for instance is Aviation, along with 10 or 12 other OCdts, it's a unique program in Canada, but there's no Air Force unit in sight.

I think Canada has more than enough Universities to accomodate ROTP cadets, in fact, don’t you need to be admitted to university first before applying ROTP?  In the instance of more specialized programs like aviation where no other reserve units are nearby, then maybe special accomodations can be made only for these specialized programs where cadets would still have to attend weekend exercises once every month.

Let alone the confusion it would cause on the financial side of the units. Every time there is a range weekend or an ex, members don't really go for free, and there are more costs than for just salary. There are set budgets for R&Q, ammo, fuel, etc., for each unit, based on numbers within the PRes unit. To just "compensate" for the trg costs won't work.

I don't think that an additional administrative burden is an adequate reason to not to ensure ROTP cadets are getting the military work/training during the academic year they should be getting.  Many ROTP cadets already regularly volunteer at reserve units and attend exercises without issue.  If simply compensation for the additional trg costs isn't enough, I'm sure that something can be worked out with the ROTP program and the reserves to compensate reserve units a certain amount per ROTP cadet to go on exercises (covering R&Q, ammo, fuel, etc.).  The point is that mere logistical issues can be worked out and shouldn't be the reason to not do something that can be of benefit to a ROTP cadets training, especially if this became part of a reserve units mandate.

As I've stated before, many people in university are not in programs which go 0900hrs - 1600hrs each day. I have 18 hours of class each week,plus 16 hours of clinical time in the hospital; in addition research, assignments, studying, and maintaning my personal level of fitness.  I don't get to choose any of my classes, or my practicum times. I might do an 8 hour shift in an evening, or have to be up at 0600hrs some mornings to go to clinical. I could only imagine how much my stress level would increase having to attend trg each week, or weekends for that matter. My academic performance would decrease, as well as my sleep and health in general. If anybody else has experienced being a reservist in an infantry unit and doing a science degree concurrently, they will likely understand where I am coming from.

And yet people in the reserves are able to do this regularly.  Again, I don't think that a busy schedule at school is an adequate reason to not be able to make it to a reserve unit even once every 3 weeks at the reserve minimum.  I've even known several med students at reserve units who've been able to come in regularly AND go on exercise.  I hope you're not suggesting that people in the reserves are only Arts students because i'm sure you can find people doing a full compliment of university students at a reserve unit INCLUDING science and engineering.  Increased stress levels, lack of sleep, and 'detrimental health' are weak excuses for not simply going to a reserve unit once a week and an exercise every month.  There are people who committ more time to volunteering in the community or in sports teams while in university than the time it takes to committ to a reserve unit.  The military is your full time job!

Let's safe the sleep deprivation from weekend ex's for the summer courses, and get through our educations with high achievement.  
We'll have plenty of time after we graduate to experience the military life. Savour your time at a Civi U and don't wish the time away.

If ROTP cadets can't handle both school and reserve training at the same time, I think they'll have MUCH more problems surviving in the military.

My take away message here is that ROTP cadets should be continuously doing something military during the academic year in addition to going to a civilian university, especially since the Crown is paying for their education.  The reserve system is a great way to accomodate this since it is specifically designed for people who ARE going to school or work at the same time as being in the CF.  I think its great we're having this discussion but I still don't see any solid reasons against this.

 

[Snakedoc]

The issue is mainly the forcing of legions of young, untrained officers on units with LIMITED positions for junior officers and little time (and money, and resources) to waste on training and employing someone who they won't have for very long and most likely isn't in a trade normally part of that unit. Reserve units already have a task to accomplish with their limited resources, they don't need the added strain of being 'St Jean lite' (as thats all the 'army' skills many OCdt's have) or 'Gagetown lite' for a bunch of OCdt's.

I think I answered this in my post regarding increased capacity.

And, there is little to be gained (in comparison to the time, money and resources expended) in placing air force and army guys in navy reserve units, navy guys in army units etc. An army or navy reserve unit IS NOT like a regular force joint unit (like an HQ). So these kids won't be learning 'joint' stuff, they'll be stuck in the OR shuffling paper. A bunch of different colored uniforms does not make a 'joint' unit or give anyone a 'joint' experience. ROTP types have already 'learned the ropes' at St Jean. Reserve units don't spend their weekend doing 5 man small party taskings building a mod tent, neither do they stand around doing drill by squads (unless there is a parade coming up). The stuff that could be learned in a reserve unit (section attacks for infantry guys, convoys for log types, driving a boat for the navy guys etc) is stuff that alot of guys couldn't participate in due to lack of training. 

Again, this is learning basic 'officership' and the duties required of an officer, the military culture (messing etc.) that I mentioned in my earlier post.  ROTP cadets are employed full time by the reg force and should be utilized in a military way during the academic year.

In regards to the comment about restricting access only to universities in areas with reserve units....you all do realise that MANY of the civvie-u ROTP types are guys joining in their second or third year and wouldn't be willing to transfer schools so late in their academic career. 

Then maybe these people should think of going DEO.  Or there is also the option I mentioned earlier of making exceptions to only attend weekend exercises.  Again, these are all just ideas.  The point is that ROTP cadets should be at least doing something military during the academic year.

It's not fine. It's a waste of everyone's time. I'd rather not just 'put on the uniform' if all I'm going to do is come in, play with the mess' paperwork and then leave (and there's already people doing that).

I think even simply putting the uniform on and coming in is extremely important to the military mindset.  You're going to have to get used to doing paperwork and messing because that is largely what officers do in the CF.

No, no...there are usually enough officers at reserve units. The problem is getting enough troops to fill the ranks.

Not in my experience, at least on the Navy side of things I've found that not having enough officers (and recruiting in general) is usually the issue.  Especially having people that stick around.

Some things about the CF can be learned no matter what element your "unit" is.  I was in UWO Aviation as well, and paraded at HMCS PREVOST as a MARS officer.  Even if you aren't in that element, there are general things about the CF (administration/mess life) that junior officers seem to get thrown into without enough knowledge/training.  While doing paperwork one night a week doesn't seem like a lot of fun, you can learn a lot of other things while you're at it.  

The way I see it, the chances you work in a pure AF/Army/Navy setting will be pretty slim in the long run...might as well know how the other elements work.

I absolutely agree.

 

[SMP]

The naval reserve is a lot different than an infantry reserve unit. This is getting out of hand...

 

[dimsum]

The naval reserve is a lot different than an infantry reserve unit. This is getting out of hand...

How so?  I've seen both sides and in essence, on a parade night both go in and do some sort of parade and training in whatever trades they do.  On the weekends, the army goes to the field for an ex, the Naval Reserve either does an ex near their unit and/or goes to the coast for some sea time.

While, say, an Air Ops ROTP might not be able to do those things...both types of reserve units have administration and a social aspect to them.  Something like PERs can be a pretty crappy thing to learn when your first experience with them is at an operational unit as a new Captain.   :-[

 

[dwalter]

The other issue with demanding people got to the reserves during school is that many of us have classes that run during the reserve training nights. A lot of the units parade on Thursday nights here, and I am not finished class until 9pm. There is no feasible way of accommodating that.

Snackdoc, you made an interesting claim that we are full time members of the military first. This is only partially true. According to the my ULO and the SEM, and you can phone him and ask him if you like "As ROTP Officer Cadets, our first and primary duty is to attend school, and maintain acceptable grades. Our secondary duty is to the military, and to military training."

To paraphrase what we were told during in-clearance and the SEM briefing we had this year, going to school is our current trade in the military. The French rank "Éleve-Officier" is a far more accurate description of what we are, since it means "Student Officer". That is our role within the forces, to go to school.

Now you can argue about this some more, or you can deal with it and make the realization that the system is not going to change just because you think it's a good idea. If you want to make changes to ROTP, then get yourself into Borden's recruiting department as a Personnel Development Officer. Then you might be able to change something, but as it stands you have expressed your opinion, and are now just arguing with, and also offending some of the people who are trying to discuss the down sides to your idea. This is a forum, which means a place for discussion.

 

[chris_log]

"As ROTP Officer Cadets, our first and primary duty is to attend school, and maintain acceptable grades. Our secondary duty is to the military, and to military training."

Bingo. That's the job of ROTP students, to get an education.

If there was a local reserve unit near me that had a logistics focus (so a service battalion) then I would parade with them. But there isn't, so I don't. I don't want my time wasted, and I'm not going to waste a unit's time.

There is MINIMAL benefit to having officer cadets whose training and trade have nothing to do with their local reserve unit parade with them. If the unit wants to take them and if the OCdt wants to do it, then go for it. But there is no point in forcing them too. RMC kids don't do alot of 'military stuff' outside of drill, ruck marches and range days (which we could do through our support bases if we made enough requests to participate), anything else is done as part of teams (like Sandhurst).

It's a good idea, but not practical. There's no point in forcing OCdt's to do this just so they can throw on the uniform once a week and be 'reminded' they are still in the CF.

Like I said earlier, it would be better (for both the ROTP kids and the units involved) for us to help out at cadet units. Those guys are always understaffed and our minimal training is perfect for what they need (basic classroom instruction, drill, uniform maintenance etc). I've emailed my local army unit, but as of yet no answer back.

 

[Snakedoc]

I absoultely agree with the primary duty of a ROTP cadet.  However I don't think that their secondary duty is actually in conflict with their primary duty and that attending a reserve unit once in a while can actually help achieve both goals.  Obviously if school assignments are getting in the way, attendance can be excused once in a while but until attendance is actually required and not voluntary, there will always be people who don't go even though they should and I think that institutionally, that is a problem.

Reserve units often have more than one night (two usually) that members can come in as to accomodate the wide variety of schedules people have with work and school and there is also usually a weekend training day once a month to complete Combat Readiness Requirements in addition to weekends for exercises.  This gives quite a bit of flexibility for a ROTP cadet AND current reserve members to attend at least once every three weeks to maintain their status.

So after 3 and a bit years of ROTP and other 'military stuff' I'm going to eat some humble pie here and say that...IMHO, the CF should end the civvie-u option for ROTP (except for students going for medical, legal etc degrees) and expand RMC (or re-open Royal Roads and expand CMR) and ALL ROTP candidates go through there. Having almost completed my degree I can say that, while it was nice to get the degree....what I've learned applies hardly at all to the military. But what you do at RMC (fitness, team sports, bands, mil skills, Sandhurst, a military styled education etc) is far more applicable. Now, there are plenty of things that aren't so good about RMC (any honest RMC grad, staff or Kingston police officer will tell you that) BUT....I would suggest that you tick the box for RMC.

Piper, above is a quote you made in another forum. You and I both seem to agree that there isn't enough 'military stuff' occuring during the year for Civie U ROTP cadets?  Isn't the reserve option better than nothing then?  We both agree that it's a good idea.  You and I both seem to disagree on implementation due to differences in classification or environment... which we are both entitled to our opinions.  You think there's little value to this whereas I think there's value to learning more about 'officership' regardless of classification or environment.  Some of the 'military stuff' you mentioned RMC cadets do such as "drill, ruck marches, and range days' are all done at the reserve units regardless of environment (even the naval reserve is getting into the ruck marches with training for the BFT).  I think the opportunity to volunteer at cadet units is a great one but the disadvantage would be that the CIC world is, IMO, quite different from the rest of the CF world.  I think that the opportunity for classroom instruction, drill, and uniform maintenance can also be done at the reserve unit level with junior NCM's or new officers, especially if shadowing a platoon officer as a 2IC.

Intelligent Design, the term 'student officer' absolutely makes sense!  But my interpretation is that the student aspect involves going to school, and the officer aspect should involve doing something military along with that.  I'm 'dealing with this' by discussing it on a forum.  I honestly do not see how I am offending anyone here but if I am, I apologize.  My intention is not to 'argue' but rather debate and discuss...which is the purpose of these forums.  I don't see how my posts have crossed the line from discussion.  I've tried my best to respond to every point made regarding the 'down sides' of this idea and am open to suggestions and discussion on how to improve the ROTP system.  Do you think the system is sufficient the way it is now?

Edit: for grammar

 

[dwalter]

Sorry for being snappy before, however I ended up reading 2 pages of this thread too early in the morning, after having a long day before. I apologize.

Anyways, I am quite clearly a Civvi U OCdt, in my second year of school. I joined the forces after my first year at university, and thus have already been in the academic system this way for a bit. I haven't been on BMOQ yet, and the only actual 'military' things I've done have been to go up to my ASU for in clearance, and to go to my dental checkup yesterday. Quite often the only things that remind me I'm in the military are the ID card in my wallet, and the pay that goes into my account twice a month.

So, you are probably thinking this is a prime example of why your idea of having mandatory reserve time is a fantastic idea, and I'm quite sure that after basic next summer my tune will probably change, especially since I'm not allowed to work with a reserve unit until after that point. I have been working with my local cadet unit already, even before joining the forces, and so to the people who suggested that as an option, I'd be inclined to agree. We don't have an Air Reserve flight anywhere near Vancouver, and so going to an Air Cadet squadron at least gets me in the classroom teaching something I love, which is aviation.

The current system is not perfect, however I do know that a lot of Civvi U people do choose to work with reserves and cadets when they can. The options are different, and people go into RMC and Civvi U with the forces for different reasons. The way the training ends up working out, having a Civvi U student wouldn't be much different than a DEO applicant. The only difference is that summer training is meshed in with school, and school is paid for, rather than having all training after school is over.

 

[chris_log]

Piper, above is a quote you made in another forum. You and I both seem to agree that there isn't enough 'military stuff' occuring during the year for Civie U ROTP cadets?  Isn't the reserve option better than nothing then?  We both agree that it's a good idea.  You and I both seem to disagree on implementation due to differences in classification or environment... which we are both entitled to our opinions.  You think there's little value to this whereas I think there's value to learning more about 'officership' regardless of classification or environment.  Some of the 'military stuff' you mentioned RMC cadets do such as "drill, ruck marches, and range days' are all done at the reserve units regardless of environment (even the naval reserve is getting into the ruck marches with training for the BFT).  I think the opportunity to volunteer at cadet units is a great one but the disadvantage would be that the CIC world is, IMO, quite different from the rest of the CF world.  I think that the opportunity for classroom instruction, drill, and uniform maintenance can also be done at the reserve unit level with junior NCM's or new officers, especially if shadowing a platoon officer as a 2IC.

RMC and parading with a reserve unit are different. My post was not about just 'military stuff', but rather the whole RMC 'package'.

Young, relatively untrained officer cadets have no business instructing reserve NCM's. In fact, in 'Mo units most of the instructing is done by the vastly better experienced Sgt's, WO's etc. I ask you, what can an OCdt teach at a reserve unit? Drill? Nope, that's what the CSM does. Weapons? Nope, many OCdt's are only C7 qualified, some are C9 and pistol qualified and a few (infantry and other cbt arms types) are qualified on the C6, Carl G etc. And again, there are better qualified people at the unit to teach. A reserve unit exists to train soldiers, not to serve as a training ground for officer cadets.

Reserve units don't need to be burden with OCdt's. If they want to take them on, that's THEIR decision because, like I said before, they exist to train soldiers. The soldiers don't exist as training aids for officer cadets. OCdt's at civvie are to be neither seen or heard. We're supposed to go to school, stay out of trouble and show up for summer training. Like my post you referenced, my ideal army would see all ROTP officers go through a military college, but we can't do that anymore. Civvie-u is basically an 'outsourcing' of military officer education, just like we outsource alot of driver training and base services.

Oh, on a slightly related note....what naval reserve units do ruck marches to pass the BFT (which is an Army-only, or posted to an army unit, test)? None of the naval reservists I know have rucks or any other field kit (I can't imagine rucking in sea boots).

Just to get an idea of whom I'm talking to, are you an ROTP type yourself?

 

[Snakedoc]

Hello Everyone, sorry for the late reply but I have been REALLY busy the past month!

To answer Piper's question, I am not an ROTP type but a reserve officer who has done school and reserves concurrently in the past.  I also know several ROTP types who parade on ships and are outstanding cadets.  I also know ROTP types who could be parading at a unit in their environment and classification but simply don't do so because they don't have to or don't want to.

I know of naval reserve units experimenting with the BFT.  For example at my unit, we do not have the proper equipment but we improvise and ensure that we do it with the 50 pound weights etc. on practice runs.  Then the plan I believe is to do it with our local army unit for the actual thing to ensure it is properly recognized.  This is of course something new.

Though I don't oppose officer cadets teaching at a cadet unit, maybe in the first year or two before they are basic trained (though the same argument can be made about what an officer cadet who doesn't have basic can teach cadets especially when they have their own cadet NCO's who have been in for 3-4 years, taken cadet courses, and teaching), but I still think the reserve world is closer to the type of environment officer cadets will be working in compared to the CIC environment of the cadet world.  In terms of teaching NCMs at a reserve unit, what I am thinking of is that this is not a regular thing.  Rather something where OCdts teach on an assigned special topics lecture (ie something that needs to be researched like a topic in naval history) at least once during the year to a group of people (junior NCM privates for example or their own group of junior officers) as a training tool to develop their presentation and teaching skills.  However I don't think this component should be the main focus, rather the focus should be on shadowing a platoon/divisional officer and learning aspects of their job, especially the PER process and the basics to military administration which will be a key component to your careers as commissioned officers.

I'd say ROTP is not that different from the Reserve Officer Entry Plan (designed for people still in school) in terms of how training is structured (training in the summers) except that the reserve officers are required to parade at their respective units and ROTP officers are not required to do so.  Difference between ROTP and DEO is not only the fact DEO has training meshed together and ROTP has their school paid for, but also the fact that ROTP members are part of the military during their school years and are thus being paid a salary to go to school and earning pensionable years.  I think situations like what Intelligent_Design mentioned of not having done anything 'military' in an entire year except for a few admin things is something that is really tough for many people to read.  In the case mentioned about not having an Air flight anywhere near, i think compromise in working at a air cadet unit is acceptable for now at least.  I think the goal really is to make sure all ROTP types are at least doing something military during the school year IMO.  Of course what I have mentioned are just my ideas and food for thought 

 

[chris_log]

It's a good idea, but like I said before it's not workable.

My main points;

1) There are schools without nearby reserve units. Are we going to make some people parade and some not? We can't restrict where they go to school, you get accepted into ROTP and then they ask you where you plan on attending school (thats what happened to me).
2) Many reserve units are 'resource constrained' and need to focus limited resources on THEIR troops.
3) ROTP types would not really be a part of the unit, and OCDT's that actually belong to the unit would be given preference etc for training, resources etc.
4) Reserve units don't need a bunch of young officers, there aren't that many reserve officer positions in the first place. What would we do, place the ROTP OCDT's into NCM positions for which few if any of them are trained?

I like how it is now, if we want to, we can. That way, reserve units aren't innundated with people they don't need and ROTP types can explore other options (working with a Cadet unit, for example).

 

[Lumber]

How about we just open up another MilCol and send all O/NCdts to MilCol's and none to Civi-U? Seems like a good idea to me.

TDV

 

[chris_log]

How about we just open up another MilCol and send all O/NCdts to MilCol's and none to Civi-U? Seems like a good idea to me.

TDV

Then we loose all the people who would apply to ROTP when they're already attending a school.

Also, it's not cost effective. Military Colleges are expensive to operate, it's much easier and cheaper to 'outsource' education to civilian schools. There are other more pressing priorities then another charm school.

The current system works just fine, those who want to go to a military college and have all the stuff associated with that can go there, and those who would rather attend a normal school can go there as well. Either way, the CF ends up with a degreed officer with a range of experiences and skills (RMC kids experience different things then civvie-u kids, a vice versa). Despite an old post of mine indicating that RMC may have, in retrospect, been better for me I do not believe that we should to away with the civvie-u stream entirely. Both have their uses. If there wasn't a civvie-u stream, I wouldn't be in ROTP right now (because there is no way that I would have gone to RMC three and a bit years ago, not a chance). 

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

Folks,

Officers (Res and Reg) do much much more than deliver training - I think your discussion is a little one-sided.  Piper, you make good points about what OCdts should and shouldn't do - for example, weapons, drill, etc - that's a no-no.  In fact to expand on your point, officers should not be teaching very many subjects, particularly not to NCOs, during the course of a unit's training cycle.

However, one area that you are forgetting is that other, less-glamorous yet more important area that many officers find themselves employed in - administering the troops.  I don't care if you are a combat arms officer, logistics, EME, Sigs, Mars, AERE, whatever - if you are an officer whose occupation deals with soldiers, sailors or air force troops you will get sucked into doing administration.  No matter what kind of operational guru, "only a field guy", sea dog, whatever, you fancy yourself, at some times, the Admin Bell tolls for thee.

From what I've seen, most new Army officers arrive at their units well-trained to do their basic jobs by the various schools - tactics, replenishment, whatever it is.  However, they arrive completely unaware of some of the back-end admin pieces they will have to know to take care of their people.  That becomes a steep learning curve and one where Coy/Sqn/Bty 2ICs get to pull their hair out and do much much teaching to get the new officers' admin wired tight enough to take care of their troops.

When I was posted to a Res unit, I would have welcomed a couple civvy-u ROTP officer cadets parading with the unit - they could have learned a few things about the Army, they could have paraded when their class schedule permitted (ie coming in during the day to give the day staff a hand) and they could have been another couple fairly computer-literate, reasonably educated folks who could give a hand with the admin and learn a few things themselves that would stand them in good stead further in their careers.

There is more to service as an officer than just training and many ways in which, as a leader, you have to take care of your people outside of a field or operational setting.

My 2 cents.

 

[chris_log]

Folks,

Officers (Res and Reg) do much much more than deliver training - I think your discussion is a little one-sided.  Piper, you make good points about what OCdts should and shouldn't do - for example, weapons, drill, etc - that's a no-no.  In fact to expand on your point, officers should not be teaching very many subjects, particularly not to NCOs, during the course of a unit's training cycle.

However, one area that you are forgetting is that other, less-glamorous yet more important area that many officers find themselves employed in - administering the troops.  I don't care if you are a combat arms officer, logistics, EME, Sigs, Mars, AERE, whatever - if you are an officer whose occupation deals with soldiers, sailors or air force troops you will get sucked into doing administration.  No matter what kind of operational guru, "only a field guy", sea dog, whatever, you fancy yourself, at some times, the Admin Bell tolls for thee.

From what I've seen, most new Army officers arrive at their units well-trained to do their basic jobs by the various schools - tactics, replenishment, whatever it is.  However, they arrive completely unaware of some of the back-end admin pieces they will have to know to take care of their people.  That becomes a steep learning curve and one where Coy/Sqn/Bty 2ICs get to pull their hair out and do much much teaching to get the new officers' admin wired tight enough to take care of their troops.

When I was posted to a Res unit, I would have welcomed a couple civvy-u ROTP officer cadets parading with the unit - they could have learned a few things about the Army, they could have paraded when their class schedule permitted (ie coming in during the day to give the day staff a hand) and they could have been another couple fairly computer-literate, reasonably educated folks who could give a hand with the admin and learn a few things themselves that would stand them in good stead further in their careers.

There is more to service as an officer than just training and many ways in which, as a leader, you have to take care of your people outside of a field or operational setting.

My 2 cents.

You are 110% correct. I think I got a little hung up on the 'training' aspect because I kept harping on OCdt's lack of training (not experience per se, although they lack that too, but basic training...most OCdt's are at best half or two-thirds trained when they graduate). My points may have gotten a little muddled.

Now, I agree entirely with you that a reserve unit would be a good place for a young 'un to learn the ropes of basic admin. However, how many is enough? Let's take 11 Field Reg't RCA in Guelph. They are a smaller unit and there are around 15 or so ROTP types going to Moo-U. I know that 2 of the ROTP kids parade with them, however, could they handle all 15 of them? It's the only game in town for the CF, and the next nearest PRes units are in Hamilton or the Tri-cities. I still think it's unworkable to force ROTP types to parade with reserve units, there just isn't enough work to properly employ OCdt's in a meaningful (that being key) capacity.

I feel that the best way for ROTP kids to experience the CF is to find useful, meaningful OJT/EWAT opportunities for them in the summer as opposed to sticking them in a CFRC to make coffee while they wait for a course (which is the norm).