ROMEO DALLAIRE-5 YEARS OF DISCUSSION

[Strike]

YES!

Lets concentrate on his behaviour when he came home! How he became a drunk, wandering the streets of Ottawa.

How he continually drew attention to the tragedy in Rwanda, but failed to take any responsibility himself, or place it where it is arguably more deserved, on Maurice Baril and Kofi Annan, presumably in an effort to ensure his gold - plated pension.

Lets concentrate on how he is now advocating the deployment of Canadians to Darfur, where there will definitely be casualties on our side. And for what? The temporary cessation of tribal warfare on a continent that is rife with it? To secure the goodwill of a handful of riduculously poor African dictatorships, ruled by despots who actively encourage the strife?

If we are going to expend treasure and lives, it should at least be in a country or region in which we have a significant national interest.

Just because a retired, failed general said so, does'nt make it so.

Way to show your ignorance regarding PTSD.  I have friends who still can't stand the smell of rotting leaves or Vic's Vapour rub because of what they had to deal with on the job.  They also drank, some got divorced, etc.  I guess they are all drunks too then.

As for his taking responsibility, what do you think is the major issue he deals with every day wrt his PTS?  He's been very open about wishing he had done things differently.

Comparing him to Mackenzie is ludicrous.  The Balkans had a helluva lot more cash/people/equipment/political support than Rwanda ever had.  I'm sure if he had had the same support network things would have turned out differently.

As for your comment about Darfur, you are just propagating the whole problem that came up with Rwanda -- no economical benefit and they're always going to fight, so why not just leave them alone?  Who cares that they're also human, children are being recruited to fight, women are being raped and mutilated, and other atrocities are happening?

I hate to be so blunt, (and I'm sure the mods will have something to say to me about this, hopefully past posts will prove that this is an isolated incident) but are you even human?

 

[Acorn]

As for my judgement of Dallaire, his individual circumstances do not concern me. 10 MEN DIED DUE TO HIS DITHERING HE FAILED HIS MISSION

Might they have died because:
A. they were Belgian, and the Hutu "militias" had identified them as targets?
B. they were "protecting" the Tutsi Prime Minister - a major target?
C. the long-term memory of that part of Central Africa remembered that the Belgians were the most murdering SOBs on the block?

Whatever. If you were to simply argue that Dallaire should not be held up as a hero, I could agree, however you seem to be more concerned with assassinating what character he has.

Any dummy can come up with a million reasons why he cant or could'nt do his job.

And any tosser can criticise a level of command he'll never achieve. You seem most bitter about the fact that he was a streamer who hit a higher glass ceiling than you can hope to ever brush. You'll never get the opportunity to fail in such a fashion, and probably won't even be put in a position where you actually lose troops due to enemy action. Easy to play monday morning QB.

As for your point about his Senate appointment: since when was success in those circumstances a prerequisite. Hell, the hockey players who have been appointed have more courage than the average political hack who gets the appointment for creatively re-directing tax money to Liberal   party coffers.

As for his PTSD, he cries and drinks a bit. Welcome to the club. His men are rotting in holes in the ground. His best was'nt good enough. And as I stated before - Would you want Romeo Dallaire leading your children? He does his best!

I worked at phrasing a reply to the above. For some reason I'm going to be "PC" and simply refrain from comment.

Acorn
[edited for some spelling and grammar]

 

[GO!!!]

Perhaps I got a little carried away with that last post.

Apologies to all.

I have a tendancy to "run my mouth" a bit on topics I feel strongly about.

The flaming was deserved.

 

[Acorn]

Good on you for that GO. Too few "Internauts" are willing to apologize for anything.

In any case, I've refrained from comment on LGen Dallaire because I knew him before and after Rwanda. I'm not his biggest fan, but I don't think he deserves to be shot up for the shit sandwitch he was handed.

If you think he's blaming others in order to deflect blame from himself you simply don't know the man.

Acorn

 

[Paish]

If either of you (Cheeky and Paish) had read Dallaires book, I think you would see my point of view.

Read the book and ask yourself if this was a man you would want leading YOUR children.

I HAVE read his book, and i would be honored for him to lead my children

 

[LawnDart]

When I was being tortured in leadership world at Wainwright a few years ago, we were taught leadershp principles. Flexibility, Maximum Speed and Violence, Reinforce Success etc.

I guess in your guy's view, we no longer expect adherance to those ideals from our leaders.

I suggest a new motto. "Canadian Forces-Celebrate Failure!

or perhaps;

Canadian Forces- "It's not whether your troops die or not, it's how you play the game!"

C'mon guys, get real. Leadership is for big boys. When a commander's response to a chaotic situation is to lock himself in his office and leave the decision making to his subordinates, he's relinquished any right to his commission as far as I'm concerned.

I realize it's been over 50 years since this army was in a real shooting war, but surely we've got something left, don't we?

I mean, Canada used to make heros out of men like Billy Bishop, Fred Topham, Smokey Smith and Buzz Buerling.

Have we fallen that far that we now lionize people for failing to act, but feeling really, really, bad about it?

 

[Edward Campbell]

I agree, broadly, with what lawndart is saying just above, although I might not endorse his tone.

We, not just the Canadian Forces â “ it applies to Canada, at large â “ have institutionalized something like (I'm not sure what the right word is) pacifism.

Our governments (the plural is important) have decided, consciously, in the name of social harmony and multiculturalism, to deemphasize the sort of heroic figures lawdart cites.  Buzz Beurling's recent fate (in our history) was especially sad but it reflects the political values of the day.

It â “ the decline of warrior (I hate that word!) values â “ is real; it is applauded by many in our government, including in the military.  (There are many, many people in the military, especially in NDHQ (in the middle and just barely senior ranks) who are ardent Pearsonian Peacekeepers; they hate soldiers in helmets, the UN's baby blue beret is the only acceptable head dress for operations, maybe they just hate soldiers, I don't know how to understand them.)  There is a huge disconnect, I think, between soldiers in rifle companies and saber squadrons (do we still call them that?) and people, including uniformed, decorated public servants in DND, at the head of our governments â “ starting at your local elected school board and going all the way up to the cabinet table on Parliament Hill.  It â “ the decline in military values â “ is one, just one of the many things which I hope Gen. Hillier will tackle â “ by example.

 

[Strike]

GO!!!

I was mainy upset about your referenses to Darfur and PTSD.  I also got a little out of hand.  Sorry about that.  And thanks for not flaming back.

 

[Infanteer]

I think the main problem is that Romeo Dallaire seems to be approached in a love/hate sort of way, which tends to colour the way many of us view his story.

In my books, and call me judgemental if you want, he is not a hero.  Sure, the protagonist in a Greek Tragedy, but not a hero.  But I don't think he as bad as some people make him out to be - as most have said, he has hoisted himself on his own petard and he admits his failures.  He has helped in bringing PTSD to the fore.

I may not idolize him for his command ability, his capability, his tenacity or his leadership (things we usually laud General MacKenzie for), but I can respect the man for his humility.

Infanteer Out.

 

[GO!!!]

To cut to the chase - is this the type of man we want at the highest levels of our legislative process?

Remember - the senate can quash laws passed by our elected representatives.

I for one want strong leaders and decision makers working in this capacity.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
To cut to the chase - is this the type of man we want at the highest levels of our legislative process?
Remember - the senate can quash laws passed by our elected representatives.
I for one want strong leaders and decision makers working in this capacity.

...really?...then off the top of your head, name one with those attributes.....

 

[c_canuk]

Compared to who? I'd rather have former Military members in the senate who care about the military even if they were not great leaders, rather than yet another liberal politician looking for a place to take a nap on the people's dime...

 

[Infanteer]

Well, the Senate appointment is a different matter altogether.   I disagree with it on the basis that I disagree with the appointment (as opposed to the election) of our representatives in Parliament.

Certainly, Romeo Dallaire wouldn't have earned my vote by throwing his hat in with the Liberal Party.   I would have voted for him over Egg-head though.

 

[LawnDart]

I agree totally Ed, but your point shouldn't just be confined to Dallaire. That's a post in itself. I'd love to see you start a thread on it sometime.

My final point on Dallaire is this.

It is nothing short of cowardice and neglect for a Commander to stand by and do virtually nothing while his troops are butchered. That is NEVER, EVER, EVER acceptable. If taking action means he ends up in the ground too, then so be it. THEY ARE YOUR MEN!

Any leader out there who doesn't understand that doesn't deserve the title.

 

[Strike]

Sorry LD, hate to disagree with you there but the priority generally goes Mission before Men.  If every commander were to think about their men before the mission then nothing would ever get done.

I'm not saying that Dallaire was right or wrong, just that the point has an error.  If Dallaire had "jumped into the fray" wrt the Belgians and had gotten himself killed then the mission (which was doomed anyway and also a failure -- hindsight is 20/20 though) would have failed then and there.

 

[Marty]

Sorry LD, hate to disagree with you there but the priority generally goes Mission before Men.   If every commander were to think about their men before the mission then nothing would ever get done.

I'm not saying that Dallaire was right or wrong, just that the point has an error.   If Dallaire had "jumped into the fray" wrt the Belgians and had gotten himself killed then the mission (which was doomed anyway and also a failure -- hindsight is 20/20 though) would have failed then and there.

If Dallaire had as you put it "jumped into the fray" and had gotten himself killed , then we wouldnt be here talking about this , he would in no uncertain terms be a genuine full fledged Canadian Hero!Who sais he would have got killed?
I cant imagine that it is ever Ok to know that Troops under your command are being buthchered , not killed in Combat , but murdered in your presence, and you do nothing about it ............................if he had of acted , how could the mission turned out any worse?

 

[2 Cdo]

The bottom line is that the decision to do nothing is ALWAYS wrong!

 

[BDG.CalgHighrs]

When I was being tortured in leadership world at Wainwright a few years ago, we were taught leadershp principles. Flexibility, Maximum Speed and Violence, Reinforce Success etc.

I guess in your guy's view, we no longer expect adherance to those ideals from our leaders.

I suggest a new motto. "Canadian Forces-Celebrate Failure!

or perhaps;

Canadian Forces- "It's not whether your troops die or not, it's how you play the game!"

C'mon guys, get real. Leadership is for big boys. When a commander's response to a chaotic situation is to lock himself in his office and leave the decision making to his subordinates, he's relinquished any right to his commission as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, that is exactly my position. :, except for the fact that I have maintained all along that he is not a "hero", and that he had several failings including this one which I believe I was the first to mention. I am pretty damned sure I was also quite clear in stating that he freely admits these faults and takes responsibility for them (also a principle of leadership last I checked.) Not only does he take on responsibility for his own failings, but he also blames himself for most of the structural ones.

I realize it's been over 50 years since this army was in a real shooting war, but surely we've got something left, don't we?

I mean, Canada used to make heros out of men like Billy Bishop, Fred Topham, Smokey Smith and Buzz Buerling.

Have we fallen that far that we now lionize people for failing to act, but feeling really, really, bad about it?

Who's lionizing anyone? I think the simple stement is that the man is a good human being placed in an untenable situation from the start, who takes responsibility for the failure of the mission, even in areas where he should not. He also has gone well out of his way to raise awareness and try and prevent simmilar things from happining elsewhere.

Have we fallen so far as individuals that we send people to unequiped to near-hopeless situations, and then scapegoat them when the inevitable happens and they fail?

 

[BDG.CalgHighrs]

If Dallaire had as you put it "jumped into the fray" and had gotten himself killed , then we wouldnt be here talking about this , he would in no uncertain terms be a genuine full fledged Canadian Hero!Who sais he would have got killed?
I cant imagine that it is ever Ok to know that Troops under your command are being buthchered , not killed in Combat , but murdered in your presence, and you do nothing about it ............................if he had of acted , how could the mission turned out any worse?

Full and imediate withdrawal id est Somalia?

 

[Blue Max]

Bruce M, how about Senator Kenny. He is about the only one fighting for security of our borders and a viable military.

Blue Max