Redcoat dress uniforms

[Infanteer]

I am vindicated yet once more :

Yes you are, my friend, yes you are....

Sailing Instructor, your yarns on aesthetics, high fashion, and what would look good on the runway in Milan are irrelevant to what the Army needs.   You've yet to address anything pertinent to the three reasons for a uniform that ROJ clearly laid out (which I'll restate):

The functions of uniforms are:

"¢    To identify people as soldiers, as good military sense and the laws and usages of war require;

"¢    To protect soldiers, in so far as can be done, from the elements and, even, bio-chemical agents;

"¢    To display our military values.

Functional and comfortable is a given; other then that, who cares what the history of the tie or business casual is - the only question is the standard of dress we wish our soldiers to be held to.

 

[Canuck_25]

Functional and comfortable is a given; other then that, who cares what the history of the tie or business casual is - the only question is the standard of dress we wish our soldiers to be held to.

I care, and by the way this thread has been debated, many care.

I see the conflict of interest in this thread is over heritage. The point is, our military was established on British traditions and before that, the French. New Zealand and Australia havent abondoned the scarlet dress, and i dont think they will. The RCMP havent abondoned their scarlet dress, and i dont think they will either. I attended an RCMP training camp, and at the dinner, all officers were dressed in scarlet, the most beautiful boots ive ever seen, and that trooper hat. They have established an image that has held for over 100 years, why do members in the military argue over our links with Britain as if it is something to be ashamed of. Keep the scarlet dress, embrace it, dont dispise it.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Functional and comfortable is a given; other then that, who cares what the history of the tie or business casual is - the only question is the standard of dress we wish our soldiers to be held to.

Functional and comfortable are obviously not a given, since there have been many posts championing such archaic things as stand up collars and wool material.  In fact, there is a line to be drawn between form and function; the question, of course, is where to draw it.  That can't be arbitrary - well, it can, but we have a disaster on our hands as I feel that line was arbitrarily drawn with Garrison Dress.

If you don't want to discuss the matter seriously, you're free not to participate.  For what it is worth, you have made good points - I do like the look of the Australian uniform you posted, though not as a replacement for our DEU - I still think our DEU is better.

Trying to "sum up" is admirable, but thinking that comfort, expense, ease of maintenance, etc. are not issues is simply not realistic; add to that historical precedent which in itself is causing quite a bit of a problem here (at least for those not capable of grasping how little precedent there really is for anything but a DEU style jacket for what the Army still refers to as "service dress."

I have worn business casual on civvie side for the last five years; I do wear a tie and jacket on occasion - sometimes just because I like the way people look at me when I am wearing one.  But I get blessed little accomplished when I am wearing them.  I do, however, acknowledge the need for such on occasion.  Comments from crusty field soldiers who see nothing beyond the next training area probably don't know the difference in purpose between a light coloured suit or a dark one....

That's their right; those who stand on the wall, in Colonel Jessup's words, and defend our freedoms may hold themselves above the rest of society if they wish.  When society similarly looks back in a less than accepting way, they cease to have reason to be surprised; or worse, when they find they budgets have been slashed yet again.  The Army needs to be a partner in society, not a hostage of society nor the other way around.  That means looking the part on occasion.

What IS a given, however, is operational needs reigning supreme.  No one is disupting that; the conversation I've been trying to nurse along has been a response to the suggestion we replace the DEU with a ceremonial type tunic.  I think I've clearly delineated some good reasons why that shouldn't be done which have gone largely unrefuted in any kind of honest or scholarly way.

 

[Infanteer]

I care, and by the way this thread has been debated, many care.

I see the conflict of interest in this thread is over heritage. The point is, our military was established on British traditions and before that, the French. New Zealand and Australia havent abondoned the scarlet dress, and i dont think they will. The RCMP havent abondoned their scarlet dress, and i dont think they will either. I attended an RCMP training camp, and at the dinner, all officers were dressed in scarlet, the most beautiful boots ive ever seen, and that trooper hat. They have established an image that has held for over 100 years, why do members in the military argue over our links with Britain as if it is something to be ashamed of. Keep the scarlet dress, embrace it, dont dispise it.

I never advocated eliminating the scarlets.  Read the "mechanics" proposal - we need a tuxedo.

However, that being said, I also stated that next to ammunition, vehicles, and an assortment of other items, Scarlets are last on the list.  If it is deemed to expensive or to much of a burden to maintain (ie: the "mechanic" philosophy becomes untenable), then going with a single, more versatile service uniform is the way to go (I nominated something similar to the Aussie uniform).

How looking like some plug from Liverpool once a year at the Officer's Mess has any bearing on operational effectiveness is beyond me.

 

[Infanteer]

Functional and comfortable are obviously not a given, since there have been many posts championing such archaic things as stand up collars and wool material.   In fact, there is a line to be drawn between form and function; the question, of course, is where to draw it.   That can't be arbitrary - well, it can, but we have a disaster on our hands as I feel that line was arbitrarily drawn with Garrison Dress.

I liked the policy based upon "Never Pass a Fault" myself.   Just because the Army does its duties in a field environment doesn't mean we have to look like slobs in public (baggy combats and big, black boots).

If you don't want to discuss the matter seriously, you're free not to participate.

I'm trying to.   The fact that many of the BTDT's aren't taking this discussion seriously should send a message to bring it back to Earth.

For what it is worth, you have made good points - I do like the look of the Australian uniform you posted, though not as a replacement for our DEU - I still think our DEU is better.

Aren't they the same (ie: suit and tie deal)?   I just liked the colour of the Aussie one - I agree with PBI that the Rifle Green is too dark.   A nice olive drab/khaki says "Army".

Comments from crusty field soldiers who see nothing beyond the next training area probably don't know the difference in purpose between a light coloured suit or a dark one....

That's their right; those who stand on the wall, in Colonel Jessup's words, and defend our freedoms may hold themselves above the rest of society if they wish.   When society similarly looks back in a less than accepting way, they cease to have reason to be surprised; or worse, when they find they budgets have been slashed yet again.   The Army needs to be a partner in society, not a hostage of society nor the other way around.   That means looking the part on occasion.

I'm not following this....

What IS a given, however, is operational needs reigning supreme.   No one is disupting that; the conversation I've been trying to nurse along has been a response to the suggestion we replace the DEU with a ceremonial type tunic.   I think I've clearly delineated some good reasons why that shouldn't be done which have gone largely unrefuted in any kind of honest or scholarly way.

Well, this is the problem - everbody shooting down the wrong lane.   I don't recall seeing the argument to replace the DEU with the Scarlets on the forum - ROJ advocated eliminating DEU's and using combats as the day-to-day dress, regardless of duties.   I've disagreed with this principle (so I guess I agree with you).

Then you got Canuck25 who is bleeding Red all over the thread and not really giving any reasonable reason for his view other then the fact that "we used to do it that way".

If the Army wishes to expend the effort into supporting a fancy uniform (like Scarlets), then do so in a manner which makes it accessible to all and doesn't interfere with more pressing concerns (like "how the hell am I going to deploy to the operational theater?").   Matt Fisher put forward a decent proposal with this:

"What I think should be considered is a reintroduction of the blue patrol dress as an authorized private purchase item for serving troops, similar to the Dress Blues that we wear in the Marines.   Even as a reservist, I tend to end up wearing my blues for at least 5 or 6 events during the year, such as the Marine Corps Birthday Ball, various Toys for Tots charity events, weddings, etc.   I love my Marine Service Dress, however I never have the occasion to wear it, as I have my blues."

If we can't do this, "fancy up" the DEUs.


"What's wrong with my Uniform?!?"

 

[Canuck_25]

I never advocated eliminating the scarlets.  Read the "mechanics" proposal - we need a tuxedo.

However, that being said, I also stated that next to ammunition, vehicles, and an assortment of other items, Scarlets are last on the list.  If it is deemed to expensive or to much of a burden to maintain (ie: the "mechanic" philosophy becomes untenable), then going with a single, more versatile service uniform is the way to go (I nominated something similar to the Aussie uniform).

How looking like some plug from Liverpool once a year at the Officer's Mess has any bearing on operational effectiveness is beyond me.

In my oppinon, the scarlet uniform should be supplied to all regular memebers of the army. The reservist would have to fundraise for theirs.

Keep the DEU, keep the scarlet, dont replace one with the other.

 

[Infanteer]

In my oppinon, the scarlet uniform should be supplied to all regular memebers of the army. The reservist would have to fundraise for theirs.

Keep the DEU, keep the scarlet, dont replace one with the other.

Well, next time I'm sitting on the range wondering why I only have 30 rounds to shoot for the entire year, I'll remember to thank you for your opinion.

 

[Canuck_25]

Then you got Canuck25 who is bleeding Red all over the thread and not really giving any reasonable reason for his view other then the fact that "we used to do it that way".

If the Army wishes to expend the effort into supporting a fancy uniform (like Scarlets), then do so in a manner which makes it accessible to all and doesn't interfere with more pressing concerns (like "how the heck am I going to deploy to the operational theater?").   Matt Fisher put forward a decent proposal with this:

"What I think should be considered is a reintroduction of the blue patrol dress as an authorized private purchase item for serving troops, similar to the Dress Blues that we wear in the Marines.   Even as a reservist, I tend to end up wearing my blues for at least 5 or 6 events during the year, such as the Marine Corps Birthday Ball, various Toys for Tots charity events, weddings, etc.   I love my Marine Service Dress, however I never have the occasion to wear it, as I have my blues."

If we can't do this, "fancy up" the DEUs.


"What's wrong with my Uniform?!?"

Well, are you sure that you have read the whole thread, becuase i pointed out that the general public loves the scarlet dress, its part of our heritage, and i even gave an example of how the RCMP arent rushing to replace their scarlet dress, it represents them, and people love it. You also might think this is a joke, but when people see the formidable, beautful and inspiring scarlet dress, it makes one want to join the military (thats what caught my eye, along with adventure and excitement.) I remeber out of the 35 teens at the RCMP camp i attended, 10 are now training to become officers. Some remarked how they couldnt wait to wear the "red coat" uniform.

"Fancy up" the DEU to replace the scarlet dress is unacceptable in my oppinon. 3 dresses, like the Aussies and Kiwis is what we need. It works for the British, Australians and New Zealanders, it can work for us.

 

[Canuck_25]

Well, next time I'm sitting on the range wondering why I only have 30 rounds to shoot for the entire year, I'll remember to thank you for your opinion.

Im sure that wouldnt happen if you werent trigger happy 

 

[Infanteer]

You also might think this is a joke, but when people see the formidable, beautful and inspiring scarlet dress, it makes one want to join the military (thats what caught my eye, along with adventure and excitement.) I remeber out of the 35 teens at the RCMP camp i attended, 10 are now training to become officers. Some remarked how they couldnt wait to wear the "red coat" uniform.

If people are joining the military on the premise of wearing a stuffy uniform a few days a year, then they should probably re-evaluate their reasons for wanting to become a soldier.

"Fancy up" the DEU to replace the scarlet dress is unacceptable in my oppinon. 3 dresses, like the Aussies and Kiwis is what we need. It works for the British, Australians and New Zealanders, it can work for us.

You're showing yourself to be quite inflexible and dogmatic - therefore, the weight of your posts are being discounted as such.

 

[Canuck_25]

If people are joining the military on the premise of wearing a stuffy uniform a few days a year, then they should probably re-evaluate their reasons for wanting to become a soldier.

You're showing yourself to be quite inflexible and dogmatic - therefore, the weight of your posts are being discounted as such.

Well, you must realise (i know its difficult, but you must try) that the public funds our military. They are the ones that put pressure on the politicians to increase or decease the military's budget. If the public adores the scarlet dress, keep it. I know enough people in my small red neck community that love them, and love seeing the scottish regiments in kilts, with all that extra clothing that is mostly symbolic. Its heritage, and its disapearing for more modern values. Who cares if the soldiers might only wear it 3-6 times a year. When they do, crowds and the media are there to greet those soldiers, in their uncomfortable, expensive, bright and colourfull uniforms, marching proudly down the street.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Infanteer, you are absolutely correct about people continuing to "fire down the wrong lane"; this thread may have run its course. 

My comments were intended originally only to respond to the idea that we don't need DEUs - one poster suggested replacing them with scarlets or some other non-specific "dress uniform", another suggested using combats.  Neither one has given a compelling reason why, nor responded directly to my explanation.

There are a few in the middle ground like yourself who have made useful suggestions.  The Marines, as you and Matt pointed out, do have a useful model, and I think by and large we already follow it.  A "business suit", a sweater for "business casual", good combat gear (MARPAT and CADPAT are of a family, if only we had those nifty squared-off covers, but of course that would be horrifyingly American), and a smart ceremonial dress. 

We will never, ever have a "Canadian" ceremonial dress, or at least I hope not, as there are indeed too many regimental traditions at stake.  You'd never get the armoured, infantry, Rifles, artillery, chaplains, clerks, engineers etc. and et al to agree on a colour, much less a common pattern.  I like things the way they are now; the "have" regiments like the Glamour Boys in Toronto can keep their very British uniforms, others can go with patrols or coatees, as they can afford them.

I think we've come full circle.  I also agree that the colour of the DEU could be lightened for a more "Army" look, but reinventing the wheel there is not necessary either since the colour is firmly established as a tradition (meaning we've done it twice, right?   literally, we have, the CF Jacket and then the DEU Jacket).

I could get behind the suggestion of adopting a blue jacket across the CF, even with the dreaded stand up collar.  But for the simply reason that it looks good, and with the promise we would still have DEUs.  In fact, blue patrols have probably been far more common than any of the "ceremonial" uniforms described here.  They were also common to all corps and regiments; the blue forage cap had a coloured band to designate the affiliation, and as Matt pointed out, the pants could also have a coloured stripe.  You might even claim that it is "traditional".  I get the feeling they were never intended as parade dress - the Royal Regiment of Canada expected officers,  WOs and Sgts to own it as mess dress before WW II, for example.  This very thread revelaed that scarlets were considered the No. 1 dress for them.  I presume junior NCOs and privates did not own such uniforms, nor that it was ever universal across the Army.

In any event,  the Empire is dead and we have been quite good at designing our own uniforms to suit our own needs for at least half a century.

We have a young Army; whatever we end up doing vis a vis a "national ceremonial uniform" will simply be making up things from whole cloth, no matter what the final style and pattern.  And guess what, it's our right to do so.  Just don't expect to be able to justify it on any logical grounds, as you will be on as shaky a footing as you would be trying to justify the Garrison Dress.

Anyway, that's probably enough from me for one thread, unless anyone really wants to go round the mill again on why red jackets are not "traditional" or why collars and ties were a privilege the British Army begged to have....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

FWIW, I seem to be getting more recognition, as a soldier and what we are doing now, from the civilians while I am in CADPAT than I ever did while in DEU's.

In my oppinon, the scarlet uniform should be supplied to all regular memebers of the army. The reservist would have to fundraise for theirs.

Why? Want to move back to the "poor cousin" "us vs them" mentality? Reservists aren't good enough to get it issued?

Well, are you sure that you have read the whole thread, because i pointed out that the general public loves the scarlet dress, its part of our heritage, and i even gave an example of how the RCMP aren't rushing to replace their scarlet dress, it represents them, and people love it. You also might think this is a joke, but when people see the formidable, beautiful and inspiring scarlet dress, it makes one want to join the military (thats what caught my eye, along with adventure and excitement.) I remeber out of the 35 teens at the RCMP camp i attended, 10 are now training to become officers. Some remarked how they couldnt wait to wear the "red coat" uniform.

IIRC, Scarlets are only worn on special occasions and ceremonies. The brown tunic and shirt is daily wear when required.

There's also a big difference (costwise) in outfitting the comparably small number of RCMP to the total of the Land Force (as small as we are).

Your whole premise is tilting at windmills. The Gov't IS NOT going to outfit everyone with Scarlets for any reason. Your whipping a dead horse. Bury it before it attracts flies.

Patrols (in some Units) and Mess Dress are available and sanctioned for those wishing to purchase it. That satisfies those of us wishing to dress up a little on special occasions

And as per Michael and the rest, this is my last word on this "subject".

 

[Infanteer]

So when do I get my Prussian Staff Corps stripe and my riding boots?

 

[Veterans son]

Speaking of uniforms, were the DEUs worn by the Canadian Forces(prior to 1968) a khaki colour?
Also, the blue forage caps were mentioned.
Would they be a navy-blue or light-blue?

Thanks for any information!

 

[Johnny_H]

Not sure if these will show up or if Img code is enabled but I have some personal pics taken Canada Day of the Guards regiment ( Governor Generals Foot Guards and or Grenadier Guards of Canada ) the Princess Louise Fusiliers Band ( a Atlantic Reserve Unit ) and some RCR's in formation with Navy and Airforce Personal

 

[Canuck_25]

FWIW, I seem to be getting more recognition, as a soldier and what we are doing now, from the civilians while I am in CADPAT than I ever did while in DEU's.

Why? Want to move back to the "poor cousin" "us vs them" mentality? Reservists aren't good enough to get it issued?

IIRC, Scarlets are only worn on special occasions and ceremonies. The brown tunic and shirt is daily wear when required.

There's also a big difference (costwise) in outfitting the comparably small number of RCMP to the total of the Land Force (as small as we are).

Your whole premise is tilting at windmills. The Gov't IS NOT going to outfit everyone with Scarlets for any reason. Your whipping a dead horse. Bury it before it attracts flies.

Patrols (in some Units) and Mess Dress are available and sanctioned for those wishing to purchase it. That satisfies those of us wishing to dress up a little on special occasions

And as per Michael and the rest, this is my last word on this "subject".

Do you know how many RCMP officers Canada has? About the same size as our army. You arguement sucks.

Reservists are part time. The usually have full time employment, and thus, most likely have a bit more money then a regular serving soldier.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Do you know how many RCMP officers Canada has? About the same size as our army. You arguement sucks.

Reservists are part time. The usually have full time employment, and thus, most likely have a bit more money then a regular serving soldier.

No. Enlighten me with your numbers and sources.

Do you know the average wage of most of the Reserves (students and new entry workers)? It's also not a valid reason, due to the Total Force concept. YOUR argument sucks.

 

[Acorn]

Reservists are part time. The usually have full time employment, and thus, most likely have a bit more money then a regular serving soldier.

A wise man once said "it's better to keep your mouth closed and have people think you a fool, than to open it and prove them right." You are depriving a village, somewhere, of an idiot.

If you like the scarlet stuff so much, I recommend you join a reinactor group so you can also stand in ranks and execute the 21 movements to load the Brown Bess musket.

Acorn

 

[Michael Dorosh]

No. Enlighten me with your numbers and sources.

Do you know the average wage of most of the Reserves (students and new entry workers)? It's also not a valid reason, due to the Total Force concept. YOUR argument sucks.

I agree with recce here.  Canuck25 has really not shown a lot of logic in his posts in this thread and has tended to talk past any serious discussion of any of his points.  I am getting the impression that he is simply trolling for responses.