Rations, Meal Halls ect... Merged

[MJP]

As a professional Chef, it always shake my head at messes in the CAF, some are great and seem to put effort into actual cooking of healthy meals, hell I've seen fresh baked bread in Wainwright before, kudo's to them. I've more often then not though seen what amounts to deep fried, or slop prison food which is not nutritionally balanced. Healthy choices starts with institutional change in how we feed our troops, why should we expect our troops to be healthy if we do not even make the healthiest choices for them?

Why do we do it though? convenience, it might take 3 hours to cut and blanch potatoes to feed everyone for a few days, or i can order this frozen bag ready to go. Wan health troops, we need our cooks to actually cook. Back it up with seminars on Nutrition for the troops among other items mentioned above and I am sure we would start seeing a turn around.

Some of those troops pay $600+ to eat at that mess and why does the CAF get to choose what they want to put in their body?  Healthy options should be there but no one shoulduld pay that kind of money for someone else to decide what they want to eat. 

To sum up:
Teach nutrition - Yup
Have healthy options - Yup
Tell me what to eat by giving me no choice - frig No


*written as I sit at home eating pizza and chips, while considering if I need a beer or ceaser to start.

 

[BDTyre]

Some of those troops pay $600+ to eat at that mess and why does the CAF get to choose what they want to put in their body?  Healthy options should be there but get if someone would pay that kind of money for someone else to decide what they want to eat. 

To sum up:
Teach nutrition - Yup
Have healthy options - Yup
Tell me what to eat by giving me no choice - frig No


*written as I sit at home eating pizza and chips, while considering if I need a beer or ceaser to start.

I remember summer at Edmonton...every day for nearly two months, the hot lunch was spaghetti bolognaise...and nothing else.

 

[MilEME09]

I remember summer at Edmonton...every day for nearly two months, the hot lunch was spaghetti bolognaise...and nothing else.

Unfortunately recipe development, and imagination seem to lack in CAF kitchens, which saddens me cause I've seen the equipment they have, and the possibilities are endless.

 

[OldSolduer]

Education is key but it takes time. Don’t expect overnight results.

 

[MJP]

I remember summer at Edmonton...every day for nearly two months, the hot lunch was spaghetti bolognaise...and nothing else.

#thathappened and if it did why would you accept it?

I have been to many messes across the country like most people on the forum and while the menus can get stale, having the same item day in and day out I have never seen (except the a la carte type stuff).

Unfortunately recipe development, and imagination seem to lack in CAF kitchens, which saddens me cause I've seen the equipment they have, and the possibilities are endless.

The new national menu has been great IMHO and is a huge improvement over the myriad of local menu development that was going on, although I will admit I don't eat at a mess everyday.  Regardless it will still be institutional prep work and cooking that will happen.  Our cooks are awesome, but feeding lots of people fast means the menu has to be simpler than their abilities and it has to be cost effective.

In true Army.ca fashion #topicdrift

 

[Edward Campbell]

The CAF can choose to not subsidize unhealthy choices, choose not to profit from it.  But we've gone the other way.

CANEX and messes have outlived their usefulness and reinforce negatives; it's time for change.

I'm not sure I agree, in total, but I do think that messes, at least, need a thorough rethink.

Messes began, in the late 18th, early 19th centuries in India and here in Canada, on the frontier, in an effort to give young English gentlemen some semblance of the comforts to which they were accustomed at home. Pubs, of sorts, (often with brothels attached) grew up, quickly, wherever soldiers (and sailors) were based but the officers were, rightly, unwelcome ~ then, as now, officers need a bit of privacy from their subordinates and sailors and soldiers need some (even more?) privacy from the officers (and sergeants) too. I'm going to guess that is still the case, sometimes, but I wonder if our late 19th-century, English club or country-house mess culture is what we need.

I have not been to the CFS Leitrim All Ranks Mess for a few years, but it seemed to work well. Maybe it had something to do with the people there and the work they did ... maybe all-ranks clubs are not the answer for everyone but I'm guessing that they are appropriate in some cases.

I'm even less certain about CANEX. I remember when we didn't have one! The soldiers' 'dry canteen' or local merchants were the only place to buy necessities. We, junior soldiers and married officers and NCOs alike, did really envy our American cousins. I served in a situation where my family and I had both PX and Commissary rights ~ the Americans know how to run a business and how to get what people want and need to them, almost anywhere. CANEX has always struck me as being too close to the British NAAFI ~ we used to call it 'No Ambition And F*ck-all Interest' ~ and too far from the US PX and Commissary. (And yes, I know the Commissary is heavily subsidized by the US taxpayers to make up for less than adequate military pay.)

I was told, waaaay back when, that CANEX was, intentionally, overpriced and poorly stocked in order not to annoy the local (near a base) civilian merchants who voted for the local MP whereas most soldiers voted in their former home ridings/place of ordinary residence.

Maybe this is a separate discussion ... or two.

 

[CombatDoc]

I have been to many messes across the country like most people on the forum and while the menus can get stale, having the same item day in and day out I have never seen (except the a la carte type stuff).

The new national menu has been great IMHO and is a huge improvement over the myriad of local menu development that was going on, although I will admit I don't eat at a mess everyday.  Regardless it will still be institutional prep work and cooking that will happen.  Our cooks are awesome, but feeding lots of people fast means the menu has to be simpler than their abilities and it has to be cost effective.

In true Army.ca fashion #topicdrift

+1. The National Standardized Cycle Menu has done exactly what you’ve noted, and provided standardization across the CAF. For those who claim that there are no healthy choices at the mess, this is simply not true, but people do need to still select them. However, I suspect that having a standard menu with limited creativity/flexibility for the cooks has probably lead to some morale +/or retention  issues, as institutional cooking is now >> culinary creativity. #topicdrift

 

[Navy_Pete]

I have not been to the CFS Leitrim All Ranks Mess for a few years, but it seemed to work well. Maybe it had something to do with the people there and the work they did ... maybe all-ranks clubs are not the answer for everyone but I'm guessing that they are appropriate in some cases.

ff topic:

Was at CFLRS when they switched over to a combined mess for everyone under training.  They spent a week or two before warning everyone about fighting, and then when it happened, they had the opposite issue.  There was about a dozen new summary trials on the following week for fraternization, and even more for the next few weeks.

Think it happened to coincide with the summer serials of the  officer cadet platoons being in the field, and confined to base on Friday night, so most where there, and the were the normal number of recruit platoons similarly confined. Kind of a perfect storm, but it was pretty funny.

 

[dimsum]

ff topic:

Was at CFLRS when they switched over to a combined mess for everyone under training.  They spent a week or two before warning everyone about fighting, and then when it happened, they had the opposite issue.  There was about a dozen new summary trials on the following week for fraternization, and even more for the next few weeks.

Think it happened to coincide with the summer serials of the  officer cadet platoons being in the field, and confined to base on Friday night, so most where there, and the were the normal number of recruit platoons similarly confined. Kind of a perfect storm, but it was pretty funny.

What some RCAF bases have done successfully is have an all-ranks portion of a mess, while keeping the three separate ones as well.  Greenwood does it pretty well (they're located in the same building, on the same floor).  They also have it set up so 2 bartenders could take care of all 4 places, or even 1 bartender and people just order from one place and take it to where they're going. 

In places where multi-crewed aircraft are based (Aurora, Cyclone, Herc, etc) it makes sense b/c when we're away, the crews are socializing together and they're all ranks anyway.  Most of the time aircrew also socialize with the maintainers (depending on squadron) and allowing them to be in one place helps that.

Also, I agree that the Mess topic should be split.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

ff topic:

Was at CFLRS when they switched over to a combined mess for everyone under training.  They spent a week or two before warning everyone about fighting, and then when it happened, they had the opposite issue.  There was about a dozen new summary trials on the following week for fraternization, and even more for the next few weeks.

Think it happened to coincide with the summer serials of the  officer cadet platoons being in the field, and confined to base on Friday night, so most where there, and the were the normal number of recruit platoons similarly confined. Kind of a perfect storm, but it was pretty funny.

I've never understood why members of the profession of arms can't socialize together in a peaceful and respectful manner, irrespective of rank.

 

[dimsum]

I've never understood why members of the profession of arms can't socialize together in a peaceful and respectful manner, irrespective of rank.

Complete WAG here, but from what I've seen it's imposed up, not down in most cases.  NCMs don't want to socialize up (or are hesitant to) until they know the officers, while officers in general do want to socialize with the NCMs in general.  I've never seen any of the stereotypical "officers are too good to socialize with NCMs" mentality in the Navy or especially in the Air Force.  Army may be different :dunno:

If anything, sometimes trade, not rank, divisions are harder to reconcile.  As aircrew, I didn't really work directly with ground crew and so never really got to meet most of them, which is weird since they're 2/3 or more of the squadron.  And that was in a squadron that's known for having aircrew and ground crew on a pretty friendly basis. 

As for messes, the base I was at has tried a few times to combine them.  The rumour is that the associates (yes they're not supposed to have a vote and are only supposed to be a small percentage of the membership, but sometimes it doesn't work that way) didn't want to do so because...tradition? 

 

[FSTO]

I'm glad that the ships at sea have seperate messes. I'm especially glad that the CO is by themselves (unlike the USN where the CO is part of the Wardroom) so that if you have had an unpleasant time with the old man you don't have to look at them during meal time. I'm sure it is the same with the rates and C&PO's. We're trapped with each other enough 24/7 when at sea as it is.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Works both ways, FSTO.

We CO's also appreciate not having to go have our meals with the officers on those days where we had to run roughshod over one, or some of them.

In a ship at sea context - and particularly the extended periods with lack of privacy - having separate messes for all three "groups" and the CO in his cabin can become a god send for venting, preventing at times deportment that could border on baratry or mutiny.

But that is a very specific context not found in Army or Air Force bases, or even Naval shore establishments where you can go home at night.

BTW, in all my time in the Navy, be it ashore in Naden or Stad, or at sea, I've never noticed any lack of variety in the food being served. There was always a wide variation from day to day and it was actually pretty good and healthy - both during my time as a seaman and as an officer. Sure, at sea you had some "special" cases such as the weekly steak night or pizza night - but how else were you supposed to keep track of which day it was ???

So, this lack of healthy food or variety of choice, was that an Air Force or Army problem?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Complete WAG here, but from what I've seen it's imposed up, not down in most cases.  NCMs don't want to socialize up (or are hesitant to) until they know the officers, while officers in general do want to socialize with the NCMs in general.  I've never seen any of the stereotypical "officers are too good to socialize with NCMs" mentality in the Navy or especially in the Air Force.  Army may be different :dunno:

St. Jean is a weird petri dish; there were some platoon staff that had a general dislike for officers and passed that down to their recruits/officer cadets. Normally that lasted until about 30 seconds after you talked, but there will probably always be a few with the chip on their shoulder of 'I work for a living/I'm an officer, I don't have to do that' from either groups.  Think the shared mess in St. Jean was actually good for that, as it let the two groups mingle at the point where there is no subordinate/supervisor relationship, so it's a lot less complicated to have a beer and shoot some pool than when you are both at the same unit.

Think there are pluses and minuses; the weirdroom also has a mix of really junior officers and some more senior and experienced officers, so it's a convenient space where you can talk through things and do some mentoring over a coffee/adult beverage without worrying about making them look dumb in front of people they need to be able to give orders. Similarly gives department heads a space to bash things out without airing all your dirty laundry, and otherwise talk through things, help each other out, and commiserate over shared grievances.

Always a balance between being friendly and being friends with subordinates on a ship; found it easier with people that I sailed with as a trainee, but generally consciously gave folks space as I figured they didn't want to hang with the boss on their time off, so didn't get to know some of them as well. Probably came off as aloof, but didn't want to cramp their style.  Wonder how many times that gets mistaken for an attitude of 'too good to spend time with the troops'. There are a lot of people I was responsible for that I would have been glad to consider friends, but never really got to know them well enough as a result.

Found support/HQ jobs quite different in that respect, as it's a more casual relationship with smaller teams, so the social aspect is less complicated than at an operational unit. Also less crushing levels of responsibility than a ship, so a lot more time to properly take care of all your people and get to know them better.

 

[FSTO]

Works both ways, FSTO.

We CO's also appreciate not having to go have our meals with the officers on those days where we had to run roughshod over one, or some of them.

In a ship at sea context - and particularly the extended periods with lack of privacy - having separate messes for all three "groups" and the CO in his cabin can become a god send for venting, preventing at times deportment that could border on baratry or mutiny.

But that is a very specific context not found in Army or Air Force bases, or even Naval shore establishments where you can go home at night.

BTW, in all my time in the Navy, be it ashore in Naden or Stad, or at sea, I've never noticed any lack of variety in the food being served. There was always a wide variation from day to day and it was actually pretty good and healthy - both during my time as a seaman and as an officer. Sure, at sea you had some "special" cases such as the weekly steak night or pizza night - but how else were you supposed to keep track of which day it was ???

So, this lack of healthy food or variety of choice, was that an Air Force or Army problem?

Oh I can recall a few times where the CO left the bridge or Ops to go to their cabin and figuratively scream into the pillow!

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

"Figuratively" ?

You have no idea what a blessing it is to have a good steward, as there are usually no Padre around to confess thoughts of murder !!!

;D