Rank insignia and Patrol Dress (blues)

[Jamtorky]

During my time waiting for the DHH to reply to my email I thought that I would put this question to the test here


ISSUE: Correct Historical rank badges / Hooks to be  worn on the sleeve of Patrols to indicate modern day rank structure of (one hook) Trooper /  Private , Corporal and Master Corporal.

there are 2 schools of thought that I have encountered..

One side  thinks that on patrols

Modern day (one hook) Trooper /  Private  wears no hooks
Modern day Corporal wears one hook
Modern day Master Corporal wears two hooks

the other side argues that on patrols

Modern day (one hook) Trooper /  Private  wears one hook ....same as Lance Corporal in past
Modern day Corporal wears two hooks
Modern day Master Corporal wears two hooks as well because Master Corporal was not introduced into the rank structure until late and that the individual is still a corporal, however, they hold the appointment of Master Corporal to indicate a senior Corporal with Leadership qualifications ect ect ect..

Even in our unit History (WWI) we had Lance Corporals and Corporals , one hook and two hooks !!!! in WW2 we used the term Troopers (Pte or L/Cpl) and Corporal 

any ideas out there ...

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Two different rank systems is unnecssary and confusing.   The current rank structure is one chevron is a private, so you wear one chevron if you are a private.   We used to have the "1 hook on No. 1 doublets equals a corporal" but only in the infantry companies; the pipe band continued to wear proper insignia.   So within the same regiment, you could have a guy in a dark green jacket, and if he was a piper wearing two chevrons he was a corporal, and if he was in the infantry he was a master corporal.

It is very easy to make up full dress rank insignia with embroidered maple leaf insignia.   There is no such thing as an "old uniform."   If you're wearing it and on duty, it is current.   So wear the correct insignia for your rank; Myles-Penny will make it dirt cheap, or get it from Pakistan, India or Hong Kong.   That includes the dark blue backed Patrol dress insignia.

Some regiments still wear the old style star and crown insignia on officers shoulder boards on mess dress; that I can agree with, but it is not the same issue - the rank structure is the same and the insignia is not confusing in contrast to the "approved" rank badging for officers ie gold lace on the shoulder straps of mess dress jackets.

 

[pbi]

I actually see nothing wrong with this, as long as it is confined to Patrols or Regtl Ceremonial dress, both of which tend to be worn mainly during unit activities only. When I was in the RRegtC, we WOs wore "Colour Sgt" on our scarlets- a set of gold lace chevrons with a sword and banner device, modelled on that worn by the Guards. (the RRegtC being, at that time, the only non-Guards unit that wore Guards dress distinctions).

Cheers.

 

[Jamtorky]

Can of worms .... I am in the BCD's  Armoured Regt  with orgins starting with Cavalry... no infantry history

Cpl's in the Strathcona riding troop wear one hook on thier red surges..... why only one hook and not two???? 

Correct me if I am wrong,...from the formation of an active army in Canada until the time it was introduced in the 60's ...there was no Mcpl rank ...  therefore I would be lead to believe that a Trooper had one hook and a Cpl had 2 hooks . I can see being a Mcpl and wearing 2 hooks because traditionally there was no leaf / crown and it is still a cpl rank but I can not see being a corporal and wearing one hook ....  and a fully trained private(one hook) wearing no hook... makes no sense...
In the dress regs ( and I will find it) there is reference to wearing cerimonial , full dress and undress (patrols) the rank insignia shall reflect todays rank structure. In the case for Mcpl's I believe the reflection would be plain CPl hooks while still keeping in tradition of the uniform.


I totally understand what you mean about there being no "old uniform" and I agree ...However... where is the line drawn between current rank structure and the traditional look and style of the uniform???

The GGHG Cpl's and Mcpl's both wear 2 hooks

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

If I recall correctly, Patrols are the ONLY uniform auth the old ranks in dress regs.  Thus:

Trooper = no hooks
Corporal = Lance Corporal = 1 hook
Master Corporal = Corporal = 2 hooks
Sergeant = Sergeant = 3 hooks
WO = Staff Sergeant = 3 hooks and a crown

I'd need to pull up the regs to be sure, though, and I'm too lazy to do that right now!

TR

 

[Tpr.Orange]

Eme with one hook your are called

CFN= Craftsman

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Correct me if I am wrong,...from the formation of an active army in Canada until the time it was introduced in the 60's ...there was no Mcpl rank ...   therefore I would be lead to believe that a Trooper had one hook and a Cpl had 2 hooks . I can see being a Mcpl and wearing 2 hooks because traditionally there was no leaf / crown and it is still a cpl rank but I can not see being a corporal and wearing one hook ....   and a fully trained private(one hook) wearing no hook... makes no sense...

This is crappy reasoning.  WO I used to wear the British coat of arms but now his equivalent, the Chief Warrant Officer, wears the Canadian coat of arms.  So why would we have a Canadian coat of arms badge for Patrol Dress, but not a maple leaf for the appointment of Master Corporal?

Our Brigade RSM had the new Formation CWO insignia done in gold wire for his mess dress.  That didn't exist in 1922, either.

 

[The_Falcon]

For our ceremonial it works out like

Pte=no hooks
Cpls= supposed to wear 1 hook, but I have only seen one or two members actually have this, most cpls wear nothing
Mcpl= 2 hooks
Sgts= 3 Hooks (plus they get a fancier fly tartan, a regimental brooch pin, and a sgian dubh)
WO and up= current rank insignia

As for Patrol dress, I have not seen what the ranks are supposed to be as, since I have been in there have been very few occasions were one would wear patrol dress, and those that have happened most JNCOs were DEU anyway.

 

[gcros]

The Dress Regs specify current-design CF rank insignia to be worn with Full Dress and Undress(patrols). Exceptions are allowed for old style Officer rank insignia and Foot Guards rank insignia. NCM insignia is worn on both arms in Full Dress, and the right arm only in Patrol Dress.

NCM rank insignia would be of the metallic gold type, as specified for Mess Dress.

Having said that, many units who wear patrols continue to use old style NCM rank. My unit uses a single gold braid chevron for Tpr, 2 for Cpl, the addition of a regimental collar badge (conveniently in the form of a gold maple leaf) above the chevrons for MCpl, and 3 chevrons (no leaf) for Sgt. WOs wear metallic embroidered versions of the standard CF insgnia. Officers wear metal stars an crowns on shoulder chains.

Here are the excerpts from the Dress Regs dealing with Patrols and Rank placement.


Chapter 3, Section 2

Officers

5. Superseded rank insignia patterns and materials are authorized for restricted wear with the following uniforms:

b. army full dress (optional No. 1B) and Militia patrol dress (optional Nos. 1C and 1D). See Chapter 5.

NCMs

11. Non-commissioned members' rank and appointment insignia are illustrated in Figure 3-2-2, and their wear is detailed in Annex A.

12. Insignia shall be:

c. embroidered with gold metallic, processed polyester thread, on an appropriately coloured base cloth, for wear on mess dress;

Chapter 3 Annex A

3. Rank and appointment insignia for chief petty officer first and second class and petty officers first class, as well as all army and air force warrant officer ranks (see also 5. below)

a. No. 1B tunics & doublets, full dress, and Nos. 1C and D army and air force undress (patrols)

(1) Worn on right sleeve only
(2) Army, specific foot guard appointments: worn centred on the upper right arm

4. Rank insignia for petty officer second class or sergeant and below a. No. 1B tunics and  oublets, and Nos. 1C and D army and air force undress (patrols)

(1) Worn as for No. 2 jacket on right sleeve only

b. Jacket, mess dress (optional), and No. 3 jacket (1) Sewn centred on both sleeves, with the top of the â Å“Vâ ? of the uppermost chevron 18 cm (7 in.) below the shoulder seam for male personnel, and 15 cm (6 in.) for female personnel


Chapter 5, INSIGNIA

17. Normal CF insignia shall be worn on full dress and undress. RMC officer cadets wear college appointment insignia on their collars in lieu of universal officer cadet rank braid.

18. Where background cloth might obscure easy recognition, e.g., gold officer rank braid on a yellowfaced shoulder strap, the insignia may be highlighted by backing it with scarlet, blue, or green (depending on tunic colour). Backing lights shall extend slightly beyond the insignia and fill the gap between any braid.

19. Army units which have continued to wear the obsolete Canadian Army pattern officer rank insignia on full dress and undress shoulder cords and boards, may temporarily maintain that generation-old practice. Once replaced, the obsolete insignia shall not be restored.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Sgts= 3 Hooks (plus they get a fancier fly tartan, a regimental brooch pin, and a sgian dubh)

No Sgian Dubh, some of us just purchased our own and wore it.  It was pooh poohed by the RSM, so I would tuck it down the old Sock when the old guy was around.

dileas

tess

 

[The_Falcon]

I always thought the sgian dubhs were issued from regimental stores. Thanks for clearing that up

 

[Jamtorky]

Ok .. still have not gotten a reply back from DHH

Back to the origianal question ...

what rank insignia should a Cpl wear on patrols?...should it be one hook or two...

If it is one hook ...why??

thanks

 

[c4th]

Ok .. still have not gotten a reply back from DHH

Back to the origianal question ...

what rank insignia should a Cpl wear on patrols?...should it be one hook or two...

If it is one hook ...why??

thanks

If it is an authorized order of dress for your unit your Unit Standing Orders will detail specifically what rank and insignia is to be worn on Patrols. 

If your Unit Standing orders are incomplete, through your admin chain or chain of command ask your RSM.  It is his ball of wax.

It will do you no good to wear your uniform as an RCD or EME would if you are in a line infantry regiment.  Well, it might be good for a laugh at your expense.

Dress regs has been updated to include many regimental No 1's and Full Dress.  From what I saw it is a great reference if you are visiting or posting into a unit that has them, but it is by no means definitive.  Standing Orders will be.

 

[reccecrewman]

In my unit, the old rank structure isn't used on our scarlets.  I don't know if it was an authority that decided that or just acceptance as more and more people had their proper ranks sewn on them, but our Jacks wear 2 hooks and leaf, privates wear hooks (if they have 30 mos. service) etc.

 

[T19]

Ok .. still have not gotten a reply back from DHH

Back to the origianal question ...

what rank insignia should a Cpl wear on patrols?...should it be one hook or two...

If it is one hook ...why??

thanks

In the ONTR, to distinguish Cpl and MCpl we used a collar dog over the two hooks, that way it was in line with the current rank structure.  Reasoning was it was easy, it was Reg't Dress and it was less confusing on all involved.