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Question of the Hour

Gentlemen,

I posed a question in June that went as follows:

A)  What was the last regiment of the Canadian Army to have the term "Canadian Mounted Rifles" in its title?
B)  What was the first regiment of the Active Militia or Field Force to have the term "Canadian Mounted Rifles" in its title?

I realize now that I made a tremendous error in how I worded this.  What I had meant to ask, and what I completely messed up while I was composing it, was what were the regiments (first and last) with the term "Mounted Rifles" in their title.  My apologies to all.

As posted originally the answer to both would be, of course, The Canadian Mounted Rifles.  They were raised on July 1, 1901, renamed The Royal Canadian Mounted Rifles on Oct 1, 1903, and became Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) on Oct 1, 1909.
(Source: The Regiments and Corps of The Canadian Army (1964))

The answers which I was looking for, if I had done it right the first time, would have been the same as above for part B.

The answer to part A would have been The (Reserve) Manitoba Mounted Rifles which, on April 1, 1946, became the 67th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Manitoba Mounted Rifles), RCA.
(Source: Canadian Army Orders, 1946)

Unfortunately I don't know whatever became of the 67th LAA as I am not as detailed in my artillery history as I could be.

As there is no question outstanding at the moment, may I have you entertain the following?

In 1958 the Canadian Army (Militia) armoured units were renamed.  They had their numerical designations removed and went by regimental name only.  Of the 26 units involved only 13 were allowed to use the post nominal (RCAC).  The question to be answered is why were only 13 of 26 militia regiments of the RCAC allowed to have (RCAC) at the end of their title?

I hope that this time I've asked the question properly.

Dan.
 
The simple answer is that those regiments with RCAC attached had an infantry origin. In some cases it is obvious by their name, others not so. The regiments without RCAC attached had a cavalry or armour origin
A couple of examples of the (RCAC) regiments
In the obvious infantry origin category
The Halifax Rifles
The Queen's York Rangers (1st American Regiment)
In the not obvious category
Le Régiment de Hull
The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own)

The conversions of infantry regiments to armour occurred during WWII.

A quick regimental nomenclature question: Which regiment changed its name in order to carry colours?
 
AJ,

Well done son, well done.  Obviously not a difficult question as it took you less than 3 hours to come up with the correct answer.  The following quote is from "The RCAC An Illustrated History" pp 359-360:

"Army Headquarters was concerned by the fact that many armoured regiments carried designations that, to the uninitiated, would not immediately identify them as armoured.  For example, a foreign liaison officer told to locate Le Regiment de Hull or the Elgin Regiment in the field, might be excused for thinking that he was looking for a unit of infantry.  The problem did not exist with names such as The South Alberta Light Horse, since most armies had converted their cavalry regiments to armour while retaining the cavalry names.  To resolve any possible confusion, in May 1958 the acronym RCAC in brackets was placed after the name of any unit in the Corps that did not have a cavalry title.  A confused clerk once placed the initials in the title of the 1st Hussars in an official document and, like too many administrative errors, this one continued to surface year after year."

I must also add that while you are correct in stating that the conversion of infantry corps units to armoured corps units did occur in The Second World War, the post-war conversions were a completely separate occurrence.  These conversions took place on 1 April, 1946 and were driven by the need to organize sufficient armour for the Reserve Force's two armoured divisions and two separate armoured brigades.  The 1946 numbering system was accomplished not in the random way of the late conflict but by placing the units in order of seniority and numbering them thusly.  With the Active Force armoured regiments taking the first two numbers the guard cavalry came next with the GGHG and the 4th PLDG being the 3rd and 4th respectively, and so on up the line.

Now, as to your question.  I have found two infantry units which began their histories as 'Rifle Regiments' and were re-designated at a later date.  As you, AJ, are from Kingston and one of the units about which I discovered this is the Princess of Wales' Own Regiment, I would hazard a guess that this is the answer to your question.  The 14th Regiment 'The Princess of Wales' Own Rifles' were re-designated 'The Kingston Regiment (The Princess of Wales' Own) during the militia reorganization of 1920.  The following year the were renamed again becoming 'The Princess of Wales' Own Regiment'.

If this is not the one you were thinking of I will provide the name of the second one for you.

Dan.
 
AJ,

The other regiment I found is just up the highway from you.  It's none other than The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa.

The unit was organized in 1881 and became (in that same year) the 43rd 'Ottawa and Carleton' Battalion of Rifles.  After almost 40 years and two minor name changes it dropped its Rifle designation and became, during the militia reorganization of 1920, a regiment of the line with the name The Ottawa Regiment (The Duke of Cornwall's Own) .

Two years (1922) it became The Ottawa Highlanders and not until 1933 was it named The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa.

If one looks at the history of Canadian infantry regiments it can be seen that at one time almost every urban centre in the country (large and small) had a regiment of Rifles (ou Carabiniers).  This was probably due to the fact that at the time Rifle Regiments were considered to be very, very fashionable.  Amalgamations and reorganizations have significantly reduced their number.  When the history of the countries regiments of the line are studied it is found that many contain a Rifle pedigree.  Another case in point are The Calgary Highlanders which spent its first 10 years (1910 - 1920) as the 103rd Regiment 'Calgary Rifles'.

Regimental titles which are gone forever include the Victoria Rifles of Canada, The Royal Rifles of Canada, The Oxford Rifles, The Halton Rifles which became The Lorne Rifles (Scottish), the 60th Rifles of Canada, Les Carabiniers de Sherbrooke, The Halifax Rifles, The Algonquin Rifles and The King's Own Rifles of Canada.  And this list contains just those Rifle Regiments which have existed since 1920.

Sorry AJ, to have strayed so badly off topic but I really enjoy this stuff.

Do you have another question?

Dan.
 
Thanks for the detailed answer

Although I would question the "gone forever" aspect of some of the rifle regiments you cited since those on the supplementary order of battle still under a Rifles title do maintain an existence of some fashion. i.e. The Victoria Rifles of Canada and The Halifax Rifles (RCAC). They are not disbanded in the sense that others are.
A thought is that Canada never got a "height of fashion" Highlander Rifle regiment. I wonder if anyone tried this but as there is no equivalent British unit the idea was rejected,
The Highland Light Infantry of Canada and its descendant The Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada of course come close, but Light Infantry, Fusiliers and Rifles all have their own separate histories and traditions.
The Transition of the 43rd Ottawa and Carleton Bn of Rifles to the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa does have some resonance in that the late lamented Cameronians of the British Army had Scottish Rifles as their subsidiary title.
 
AJ,

You're aware of the Supplementary Order of Battle (or S.O.B.)?  I thought no one under 50 would remember that!  Again, good on you son.

Ah yes, a Scottish Rifle Regiment, why none in Canada you ask?  Well there was The Lorne Rifles (Scottish) in Halton County prior to the 1936 militia reorganization but I don't recall them being allied with THE Scottish Rifle Regiment, The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).  A regiment too proud to amalgamate during the post-war cutbacks and deciding on disbandment instead.  There may have been a Canadian unit of the same name at one time or another but I would have to search my dusty old volumes to find out when and where.  I will try to do that this week.

As you must be aware every Canadian town and city had, just like they had a Rifle Regiment, a Scottish or highland regiment in place.  Some even had two.  Toronto still does.  An historical fact is that the only NPAM regiments in the Canadian Militia during 1939 with two battalions each and a regimental headquarters were Scottish; The Black Watch in Montreal and The Canadian Scottish in Victoria.  The Queen's Own Rifles also had two battalions between the wars but lost the second one in 1936.

Now, as to your contention that a Light Infantry or Fusiliers regiment would come close to the prestige of a Rifle Regiment, I would suggest that you not repeat that in front of a Rifleman!  They really do think that that 180 paces a minute thing makes them cool.  But then Highlanders think the same thing about 110 paces a minute.  Personally I'll take 120 per minute any day.

The last thing you brought up in your answer was Camerons and Cameronians and how their connection might have some resonance in the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa.  While I know Camerons and Cameronians have different connotations I have never been able to articulate these differences.  Until now.  Thank God for wikipedia.  The Camerons are a major west highland Scottish clan.  "The Clan Cameron lands are in Lochaber and within their lands is the mountain Ben Nevis which is the highest mountain in the British Isles."  Now as to the Cameronians, "Cameronian was a name given to a section of the Scottish Covenanters who followed the teachings of Richard Cameron".  And if you want to be confused about a subject try following the history of the Covenanters!  The short answer is there is a difference between the two and Camerons and Cameronians are not the same thing.  Here endeth the lesson.

I'm really enjoying this exchange.  Do you have a next question?

Dan.
 
A more salty question:

What is 3rd oldest currently commissioned warship.
The first two are easy of course.
 
I was looking for the 3rd oldest commissioned warship in the world; although I suppose the 3rd oldest commissioned warship of any specific navy might prove to be a greater challenge or at least a bit of work looking it up.
 
Oldest Swedish would be the Vasa 1628 (not really afloat anymore - not that it ever was :) )
Oldest US one would be USS Constitution 1797
Oldest Brit one would be HMS Victory  1805

 
HMS Victory was launched in 1765, but not commissioned until May 1778, so she is probably the oldest commissioned ship.  I don't know the third oldest, although I suspect it might be South American.
 
H.M.S. Caroline is the correct answer


Incidentally the 1805 date for HMS Victory is the date of a major reconstruction, commonly cited by proponents of the USS Constitution's claim who apparently can't be happy with just being the oldest commissioned warship afloat.
As the only original part on both ships is probably the ships' respective bells it is to me a weak argument
 
Okay....guess it's my turn  :)

Sticking with the nautical theme.

Most of us are familiar with the "Tribal" class Destroyers that operated in the RCN during WWII.

During the D-Day landings, June 6th 1944, there were two RCN "V" class Destroyers engaged in operations off the landing beaches.

What were the names of those two ships?
 
Okay....next question then

During the early stages of WWII the Atlantic Ferry Organization began to ferry aircraft across the Atlantic from Canada to England. After this organization had shown that this was a good idea it became a full fledged RAF formation called Ferry Command.
Who was its first commander?
 
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