Quebec to completely fund Jewish private schools

[FredDaHead]

EDIT: Mods, sorry if I posted this in the wrong part of the board, I wasn't sure where it belonged. My apologies for the inconvenience.

http://montreal.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=mon-jewish-schools-050113

Web Posted | Jan 13 2005 01:56 PM EST
CBC News

Full funding to be extended to Jewish schools
MONTREAL - The Quebec government says it will fund the full cost of running Jewish private schools in Quebec, up from its previous two-thirds share of financing.


Minister of Education Pierre Reid says the decision is designed to promote cultural diversity. Two Greek private schools already have full funding.

The increased funding will flow to 15 schools with about 7,000 students.

Jewish private schools have for years been telling the province they are underfunded.

They teach the curriculum set by the education ministry, but they got less money than public schools.

Under the new arrangement, the money for the schools will go first to a public school board. The board will then pass on most of the money to the Jewish schools.

Five of these schools have already signed agreements with the Marguerite-Bourgeoys School Commission in Montreal. Two other schools are about to sign with the Lester B. Pearson board.

Some officials at public boards oppose the plan. Marcus Tabachnik, of the Lester B. Pearson Board, says he feels private schools should not be funded in the first place.

But he says he's glad the agreement is in place and it will mean more money for his board.

Sylvain Abitbol, of the Combined Jewish Appeal, says the new arrangement will help to foster more contact between the private and public system, with the result being a more tolerant society.

The increase for private schools is justified, he says. "It's like a public system for the Jews, and the schools were getting only 60 per cent of the funding," he says.

As you might or might not be aware, the Liberal government in Quebec recently cut over 100million$ from the subsidies to students in post-secondary education, nearly doubling students' debt. Although they claim no money was taken from public school, it's hard to believe they haven't taken the 100+million$ to give it to private schools.

What I don't get is, why is the PUBLIC, NON-RELIGIOUS government giving money to PRIVATE, RELIGIOUS schools? Sure, they claim it's for cultural exchanges, but a few school boards have already signed agreements with jewish schools for the same reasons.

The government has been siphoning money out of public schools for years, and education is hurting, and now they're funding rich schools who shouldn't get any money at all? I don't have anything against jews (or any other religion, for that matter) but I do think they're getting money they shouldn't be getting, because of religion.

Attending a private school (at the CEGEP level) at the moment I would be ashamed to have the government completely fund my school. The whole point of a private school is that it's not funded by the government, isn't it?

Instead of funneling the taxpayers' money to rich people, they should send it to the people in poor neighborhoods who can barely--and that's if they're lucky--afford to eat.

(rant off)

 

[mo-litia]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Catholic schools state subsidized as well? (What's good enough for the goose should be good enough for the gander.)   IMO, parents should be able to educate their children in any system they want.   For myself, if I ever have kids they will be going to a Catholic school as I attended the public school system and am still completely disgusted by the secular, don't express any convictions as you may offend some identifiable group attitude that is prevalent in public schools today.   Kids would be better off if they were raised to follow to principles of an universally respected religion than the tenets handed down by Muchmusic and video games - which is where a lot of kids seem to get their 'moral' grounding from these days.

What I'm trying to say is that I have no problem whatsoever with this funding.   The separation of church and state was a mistake.   What should have been done was to recognize the benefits of allowing all religions to provide educational systems for their children, and if enough members of a religion existed in one area - fine, have the government subsidize them.

That way, hopefully no other children will have to wonder way the Lord's Prayer, which was recited in my PUBLIC school until I was halfway through elementary school, is now forbidden to be even SPOKE of, and therefore implicitly wrong.   :rage:

 

[FredDaHead]

I'm pretty sure catholic schools aren't fully subsidised. Mine sure isn't, and it's owned by a catholic (uhm, I can't remember the term? ..a group, anyways). The thing is, jewish schools were subsidized up to 60%. Now, with this new project, it's 100%. The 60% I can deal with, but 100% is just too much for me.

And if we were to put the state and religion back together, what religion would the government pick? I'm sure there are more muslims, buddhists (and others) who actively practice their religion than there are catholics, so would we have a muslim system?

And I agree about parents being able to educate their children the way they want, but that's not my point. My point is, if you wanna send your kids to private school, you gotta pay for it.. At least if you can afford it, but that's a whole new ballgame.

Another problem with having religious schools is that it separates cultures and might create troubles between members of different religions. At least that's what I'd see as a potential problem if I was the government.

Your points are valid, really, I just don't agree with you.

OH, I do agree that the current system sucks and that not being able to express convictions is wrong, but I don't think a religious schooling system is the right answer.

 

[mo-litia]

Well, if Jewish schools are 100% subsidized, all religious schools should be as well. All or none, eh?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I go for the none, religion should be in the home, place of worship, etc..........  2+2 = 4 in any denomination.

 

[LF(CMO)]

Well, if Jewish schools are 100% subsidized, all religious schools should be as well. All or none, eh?

Taxpayers should have the right to direct their dollars to a school of their choice.

The public school system is notoriously inefficient and wasteful.  Private schools 'do more with less' on a per pupil basis.

What I love about Quebec is that they do whatever and the Federal Gov is powerless to do anything about it!  It certainly makes me proud of my maternal grandfather, Wilfred Pierre Joseph Bilodeau, a true 'Habitant'!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Taxpayers should have the right to direct their dollars to a school of their choice.
-thats like saying people should be able to direct their taxes to just the parts of the govt. they like and come on, does anyone actually believe when you sign those forms for the govt/school board/ United Way that say YOUR money won't go to a certain agency?
...eg... you give 300 dollars to the United Way and check off that you don't want any to go to the "life planning" agency that their funding actually drops by 300 dollars,....not.

The public school system is notoriously inefficient and wasteful
..are you involved at all?...I don't think you are or you would see this is not true.

Private schools 'do more with less' on a per pupil basis.
..you know this also?...please substantiate this.......and if true how ..lets see building taxes-same/ teachers salary-same/ students needs-oops, sorry had to cut that part for the profit

.What I love about Quebec is that they do whatever and the Federal Gov is powerless to do anything about it!

..this just shows ignorant bias, and  education is a provincial jurisdiction anyway.

 

[camochick]

" For myself, if I ever have kids they will be going to a Catholic school as I attended the public school system and am still completely disgusted by the secular, don't express any convictions as you may offend some identifiable group attitude that is prevalent in public schools today."


I have attended both catholic and public school and I would much prefer public schooling. I have friends in the same boat who agree that catholic school was the most oppressive school they have attended. NOt to mention the fact that the kids I went to school with rebeled at any chance they got. I felt my public school education was just as adequate and we had plenty of freedom to express our selves. As for funding, if they are going to fund jewish schools they need to fund any other religious school that feels they need it. Personally I think private schools should fund themselves. If parents want there kids to go there, they should pay for it themselves. Public school is so underrated, it's really not as bad as everyone thinks it is.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Private school funding for good Christian schools [not the Ivy League ones] are far more expensive than public schools. I am sitting here looking at a bill for next year for my child in the amount of $10,580. My education portion of my property tax is $975. Assuming [without knowing for sure] the provincial government kicks in 3 dollars for every dollar my property tax contributes, the result of a private education is a years worth of education at twice the price. Nevertheless, the benefits of smaller classes, better support, superior security, and a modern and properly stocked library, out-weigh the additional cost, IMHO.

The quality of the teaching appears even between the two systems, but it would appear the quality of student education is much enhanced with the private system. Even more importantly, much of the public school system is becoming "electronic" with laptops etc. Private schools, once leading in this area, are now moving away due to over-reliance by students on "software correction" rather than actually undertaking a proper analytical approach to problem solving.  

My biggest worry with the private system is class stigma that inevitably is attached to it, and too often embraced by parents and students. I do  not believe in "entitlement by right of money."  Unfortunately, too many thrive for such entitlements ... much evidenced by the line up of BMW and Lexus deleivering children to school each morning.

 

[chrisf]

I went to public schools throughout my education, and I have to agree with camo chick... they're not that bad... it depends on the individual school though I suppose, but all the schools I went to were adequetely funded, did an excellent of educating their students, and all had the extra ammentities, such as libraries, computers, gyms, and extracurricular activities. Indeed, the public schools I went to were better funded, and did a better job at educating their students then the private schools in the same area.

As far as religion goes, I'll be entirely honest, I'm not a religious person, I'm a non-practicing christian, an agnostic more then anything, but as far as I'm concerned, religion is a personal right, and as such, a personal responsibility. If parents want to have their children educated in a religious enviroment, they're welcome to do it. But not at anyone elses expense. I don't even agree that parents should be refunded their portion of the school taxes if their children are attending a private school, as it's not just parents who pay school taxes.

School taxes are an investment in the future, an educated populace is a sucsessful populace.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

My father was a Director of Education in Ontario and Catholic Schools Boards are guaranteed the same funding as the Public System (100%)

My recollection of a conversation of long ago is that funding is guaranteed by a very old constitutional agreement that may have gone as far back as the BNA Act.

I'll clarify within the next 48-hours and post and update then....



Matthew.  ???

 

[Glorified Ape]

I go for the none, religion should be in the home, place of worship, etc..........   2+2 = 4 in any denomination.

I agree - it's completely inappropriate to have the government giving a single cent to any religion-affiliated institution (other than charities, and only then if they're non-prosthelytizing). It's ridiculous that we're still funding Catholic schools because of some idiotic agreement made over a century ago. If the public school system isn't good enough or "holy" enough for someone, let them pay out of their pocket, not ours.

 

[LF(CMO)]

Taxpayers should have the right to direct their dollars to a school of their choice.

You failed to grasp the concept here.  This would create a system where all the schools would compete for the students.  Monopolies are notoriously inefficient and wasteful.


The public school system is notoriously inefficient and wasteful

  I have a degree in education as does my wife.  Her's is in PE, but she now does Native Support in the public school system.  We had four kids go through a combination of Public and Private school systems.  I attended both public and private (Catholic, ethnically Irish).  I preferred the Catholic system primely because their emphasis on sports and the discipline.  Our son attended a Catholic HS in the Edmonton area when he was playing in the AJHL.  He preferred the Catholic HS for the same reason.
I have never taught school.  I have taught classes as a CIC Officer.  I work in a high risk occupation that pays considerably more than an educator.
( When we started our project this morning it was -37) 8)

Private schools 'do more with less' on a per pupil basis.
  This is a fact as I've seen the stats on it many times.  I'll wait for Blackshirts reply.  Profit is not in any way involved.  As for the other things you mentioned, as any situation such as business or Hockey the way you become a winner is by somehow getting an edge on your opponent.

.
.What I love about Quebec is that they do whatever and the Federal Gov is powerless to do anything about it!

..this just shows ignorant bias, and  education is a provincial jurisdiction anyway.
I think the above was uncalled for.  I'm well aware that education is provincial.  I was speaking in the context ie how Quebec does there own thing and vote very 'strategically'.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
You failed to grasp the concept here.  This would create a system where all the schools would compete for the students.  Monopolies are notoriously inefficient and wasteful.

Well I guess this would leave anyone in a low income bracket or a child with a learning disability in a bad way wouldn't it?... the view from the ivory towers must leave something to be desired.

The public school system is notoriously inefficient and wasteful

  I have a degree in education as does my wife.  Her's is in PE, but she now does Native Support in the public school system.  We had four kids go through a combination of Public and Private school systems.  I attended both public and private (Catholic, ethnically Irish).  I preferred the Catholic system primely because their emphasis on sports and the discipline.  Our son attended a Catholic HS in the Edmonton area when he was playing in the AJHL.  He preferred the Catholic HS for the same reason.
I have never taught school.  I have taught classes as a CIC Officer.  I work in a high risk occupation that pays considerably more than an educator.
( When we started our project this morning it was -37)

This is all nice and all but it was all gobbledygook and had nothing to do with your comment on inefficiency.

Private schools 'do more with less' on a per pupil basis.
  This is a fact as I've seen the stats on it many times.  I'll wait for Blackshirts reply.  Profit is not in any way involved.  As for the other things you mentioned, as any situation such as business or Hockey the way you become a winner is by somehow getting an edge on your opponent.

I'm sorry but I don't care if my 8 and 12 year olds get an "edge" on their friends. :

.What I love about Quebec is that they do whatever and the Federal Gov is powerless to do anything about it!

..this just shows ignorant bias, and  education is a provincial jurisdiction anyway.
I think the above was uncalled for.  I'm well aware that education is provincial.  I was speaking in the context ie how Quebec does there own thing and vote very 'strategically'

Thats NOT what you said though,....what you said shows ignorant bias.
Bruce

 

[a_majoor]

Having the State selectively funding religious schools is a bad thing; all or nothing is the correct way to see this issue. If the state funds Jewish schools, why not the Wiccan school or the Sikh school?

Education vouchers are the answer to this quandry, attach the dollars to the student and schools will have to compete for these dollars, offering parents value for these dollars. This will also lower the overall cost of education, in the sense that a large fraction of our tax dollars never make it to the classroom. Can a person in Ontario look and say that $5000 is being spent on every student (the figure given when you divide the Education budget by the number of students)? Parents will want their voucher money to go to the classroom, not to support hordes of functionaries in Queen's Park.

I have chosen to send my children to a Montessouri school, and am very pleased with the results.

 

[Infanteer]

I remember recent Fraser Institute issue that focused on privatized delivery of education.   Although I don't remember religious aspects coming into play in the proposals, I wasn't completely sold on all the ideas.   One of the fundamental strengths of the Liberal Democratic order is universal accessibility to a good, basic education.   This isn't socialism talking, this is interest in the health of the body politic.

That being said, I do agree with A Majoor's proposal for private management of the public good.   I've also espoused the same approach to Health Care, where citizens manage their own Medical Service Accounts.  If the proper incentives are tied into a system, wise management of public resources seems to be vastly superior to the clunky administration by a large bureaucracy.

As well, thought needs to go into removing the "lowest common denominator" principle from approaches to education.   It seems that mediocrity is the accepted path because it appeases everybody.   I, for one, would like to see uniforms in public schools and some sort of immersion training for giving our children some sort of in-depth exposure to additional language skills (French or other).   European and Asian schools are turning out kids fluent in two or three languages, while Canada seems to be content for the most part in having a public schools prepare youth for an exciting career at Starbucks or Walmart....

My two cents,
Infanteer

 

[1feral1]

Taxpayers should have the right to direct their dollars to a school of their choice.

When I lived in Regina, and was a property owner (a house), a portion of my city land tax went to the schools. You had a choice, either public or catholic. The provincial tax for goods, went to health and education, hence called provincial E&H tax.

Here in Queensland, Australia, us home owners don't get slugged with that. Just 300 metres from the beach, here on Bribie Island www.bribie.com.au we pay $1500 per annum in taxes, on a $400,000 home. No tax on goods state wise, but the feds throw in a blanket 10% GST and this is added on to the price of things, but teh price on a tag is the total price you say. All hidden in the price. I like it that way.

When I sold my home in Regina for $91,000 in Jul 94, I was paying over $2400 in taxes.

Go figure.

Schools are funded by state governments here, and I am not too sure where the money comes from, but it aint council rates.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[LF(CMO)]

Having the State selectively funding religious schools is a bad thing; all or nothing is the correct way to see this issue. If the state funds Jewish schools, why not the Wiccan school or the Sikh school?

Education vouchers are the answer to this quandry, attach the dollars to the student and schools will have to compete for these dollars, offering parents value for these dollars. This will also lower the overall cost of education, in the sense that a large fraction of our tax dollars never make it to the classroom. Can a person in Ontario look and say that $5000 is being spent on every student (the figure given when you divide the Education budget by the number of students)? Parents will want their voucher money to go to the classroom, not to support hordes of functionaries in Queen's Park.I have chosen to send my children to a Montessouri school, and am very pleased with the results.

I agree completely.  That is why the 'private' schools have done 'more with less'.  They are much less top heavy and there is more time spent in the classroom.


gobbledygook  Bruce you asked for my qualifications to support my viewpoint.  I think they are to beat.  Although, I allow that you or anyone has the right and I respect that.

Our kids did well in both venues, public and private.  I no personal issues with the public school system other my llife experiences in sports and business tell me that you have to have competion to be efficent.  Monoplies have the result posted above by MAJOOR

 

[LF(CMO)]

I agree completely.  That is why the 'private' schools have done 'more with less'.  They are much less top heavy and there is more time spent in the classroom.


gobbledygook:  Bruce you asked for my qualifications to support my viewpoint.  I think they hard to beat.  Although, I allow that you or anyone else has the right to a contrary view and I respect that.

Our kids did well in both venues, public and private.  I have no personal issues with the public school system other my life experiences in sports and business tell me that you have to have competion to be efficent.  Monoplies have the result posted above by MAJOOR

I posted this again as it left out some words previous

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
I agree completely.  That is why the 'private' schools have done 'more with less'.  They are much less top heavy and there is more time spent in the classroom

Again I will reiterate, they are NOT doing more with less, they are picking the students they want,at the price they want and where does that leave the less fortunate?  Hey, I have no problem with sending kids to private schools ,but this does not exclude those people from supporting the public system with their taxes.

Using your analogy I can run a very efficient hospital, I just won't accept any patients who aren't 100% healthy.....don't get sick now or you will have to go.

..and I almost forgot I don't want your qualifications, they are nice on a resume, but useless in discussion, I wanted statistics and such to support your "inefficient" remark.