Problems with Canadian Military I.D.?

[PMedMoe]

Certainly can.  I remember enjoying our summer trip to PEI the year I was 18.  ;D  Besides, it's not "beating" the system so much, as it is legal to drink in Quebec if you are 18.  Now, if you get drunk and then come back over the border, I wonder, is there any consequences?  Also, is there a hassle in Quebec with military ID?

 

[CADPAT SOLDIER]

I'm crying unfairness! I lived in Winnipeg and was perfectly legal until i crossed an imaginary line and moved to Thunder Bay and became a child again.
It would be worst if i wasn't milking $70000 in free flight training from the Ontario Government.

... ah well... at least I still have my Military ID.....  ;D

 

[geo]

Also, is there a hassle in Quebec with military ID?

Problem with the ID card - NOPE
If you get drunk and arrested DUI or disturbing the peace? OH YEAH!
then the local police reports it to the Military police, I along with many others get wind of the incident/arrest... and then the fun starts

 

[Emenince Grise]

Curious. My local UPI gas station has a list of acceptable ID's on the wall behind the cashier. Yes, Forces ID is there in living colour.

 

[GK .Dundas]

My Uncle had to cash a cheque some years back was about to attend  a graduation parade at Depot in Regina, he walked in full dress scarlets not only did they give him a hard time after he showed his work ID,seems they preferred he Sask drivers licence. ignorance must indeed be bliss I can't think of two many people who would piss off the Corps Sargent Major of the RCMP

 

[geek]

This is quite an interesting thread.  Are fake ID cards such a significant problem in Ontario that they need a book to check which ones are real? 

I wouldn't call them a significant problem but the easier ID scams rely on the bartender/bouncer being unfamiliar with a particular id. I can understand why the first reaction is to reject unfamiliar IDs. I'd hope that a Forces ID is familiar at most places.

The easiest scam around here is to get an official-looking id that doesn't try to be a real id, but has a bunch of seals and holograms. I sometimes see cards with a US state name, DOB, address, photo, signature and a seal and hologram. Doesn't actually say that it's a driver's license or look anything like the real state license, but some people try to buy booze with them. Or an id from a nonexistent school or club. Just wandering near UofT I've discovered five places that will do these sorts of id cards and actually advertise it.

I can't imagine it works too well around here.

 

[medic65726]

Wow, I believe you are grossly misinformed. Private citizens, as Security Guards/Bouncers/Doormen are have NO legal powers of serach or seizure. A serch can be requested persuant to entry, but if refused there is no repercussion available besides barring entry. While uttering a forged document is an indictable offence in Canada, your only course of action would be to effect a Citizens Arrest as you found the person committing an indicatble offence, and immidiately infomr the police. Also, if you are wrong about the ID, you could be open to Civil Litigation or Criminal charges related to forcible confinement and any force that was used. Personally if someone tried to sieze my legit ID I would be contacting the Police in regards to a theft charge. Of course you have the right to restrict entry to anyone you want, but I'd love to see the legislation that obligates you to sieze fake IDs.

Note:
Charges also possible are-
"Personation with intent"
403. Every one who fraudulently personates any person, living or dead,
(a) with intent to gain advantage for himself or another person,
(b) with intent to obtain any property or an interest in any property, or
(c) with intent to cause disadvantage to the person whom he personates or another person,
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or an offence punishable on summary conviction.
R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 403; 1994, c. 44, s. 27.

"Improper documentation"
(12) No person shall present as evidence of his or her age any documentation other than documentation that was lawfully issued to him or her.
Liquor Licence Act, R.S.O. 1990, chapter L.19; Section 30, Sub-section (1)

 

[IntlBr]

I've had mine accepted as a valid ID, but mine has been expired since February 2007.

My unit (PRes) has refused making me a new one on many, many occaisions.

Part of the many gripes I have with the BOR.

Grrrrr

 

[medic65726]

What I meant was that laws pertaining to search & seizure are generally found in the same place.
Seizing ID that is believed to be fake may seem like the right thing to do, but not only is there no legal obligation to sieze it, there is no legal right to do it (althought there was a proposed ammendment to the LLA, that as far as I know never passed). Now if it is fake, people are unlikely to persue the issue, but you are still committing a theft. Legally you might arrest the person under the CC (sec 494) and hold them for Police but that is all. And if all this is based on your BELIEF that the ID was fake and you are wrong, that is where the liability lies.

 

[Greymatters]

What I meant was that laws pertaining to search & seizure are generally found in the same place.
Seizing ID that is believed to be fake may seem like the right thing to do, but not only is there no legal obligation to sieze it, there is no legal right to do it (althought there was a proposed ammendment to the LLA, that as far as I know never passed). Now if it is fake, people are unlikely to persue the issue, but you are still committing a theft. Legally you might arrest the person under the CC (sec 494) and hold them for Police but that is all. And if all this is based on your BELIEF that the ID was fake and you are wrong, that is where the liability lies.

The precedent for seizure of a person's card was set by big box stores that seized expired or fake credit cards and fake debit cards, for turning over to investigative units or public security forces.  It may be technically 'against the law' to seize someone's property, like a fake identification (which in itself is against the law), but its a little late to protest it since seizure of fake ID has been in practice for at least 20 years.  Its a policy that has been allowed to be enforced by numerous establishments across North America and so far no court case has halted the action, and I havent read of any police departments charging stores/bars for enforcing that policy. So far I know only California has an actual law that requires store operators to seize fake identification, with efforts to enact the same laws in Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Washington, DC.  I havent seen it passed for anyplace in Canada yet, but if the insurance fraud groups have their say, it wont be long before we see it porposed here. 

Example 1: http://www.cordweekly.com/cordweekly/myweb.php?hls=10034&news_id=1055
Employee enforces company policy.

Example 2: http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/answers2/frontend.php/question?qid=20071006010903AAjruMM
Not sure where they came up with that ruling, looks only like popular consensus.

Example 3: http://www.towncrieronline.ca/main/main.php?direction=viewstory&storyid=6179&rootcatid=&rootsubcatid=
More justification for bar owners - they would rather face $25,000 in court fees for wrongful deprivation of property than face up to $500,000 for being caught with having underage drinkers in their bars.

 

[241]

I can also confiscate anything they have on them that we don't allow in (weapons, booze etc) again, if they want to come in. I can also poor out booze and turn weapons over to the police (never found a weapon yet though, thanks goodness). 

From www.dictionary.com :

con·fis·cate      /ˈkɒnfəˌskeɪt, kənˈfɪskeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-fuh-skeyt, kuhn-fis-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. to seize as forfeited to the public domain; appropriate, by way of penalty, for public use. 
2. to seize by or as if by authority; appropriate summarily: The border guards confiscated our movie cameras. 
–adjective

As far as I can tell by the definition is that confiscate means take without consent, I am sure if you tried that you could have theft charges filed against you, if you tell them that if they wanna come in they have to give it to you them that's not really confiscating it so much as being given, as for pouring out booze & turning weapons over to the police (which would have been giving to you for you to not to have broken any laws your self) well anyone can do that... Haha ;D

 

[garb811]

Credit cards, drivers licenses etc are not owned by the individual but rather issued by the bank, provincial government etc.  So if the institution that actually owns the item in question sends out a directive asking for stolen/expired/fraudulent cards be seized by a vendor, it isn't theft.  Same idea as with your uniform.  You are issued it for wear and have financial liability for loss or damage but you do not assume defacto ownership of it to do with it as you please.

For items surrendered at the door as a provision of gaining entry to an establishment, they are not being "confiscated" but rather held for safekeeping.  Should the guy return to the door and ask for his item back, you are legally obligated to return it, unless it's a weapon or another illegal item you've turned over to the police.  If the item is legal for someone to possess which you do not allow to have carried it due to it's potential use as a weapon or licencing issues, such as a pair of scissors or a unopened bottle of beer, if you refuse to return it on demand when the patron exits your establishment you are committing theft.  Don't be confused about your legal liability being waived simply because it's something which has been ongoing for years without anyone raising a fuss.

Edit: Slight grammar fix.

 

[The_Falcon]

I have worked as a doorman on occasion at my friends bar, and I have seized id's that I knew to be fake/false.  When I work at a Slot Casino (OLG) all security officers had to take this 2 course on spotting fraudulent ids.  One of the more common ones I keep seeing is a red and white card, that says Ontario Canada ID (with both the provincial and federal government logo on it).  Do I give it back hell no, I very bluntly explain to the idividual what kinds of laws they are breaking and the penalties the come with them for using, said fake id's, and if they want to discuss the matter with the police I would be more than happy too.  That shuts them up right quick.

 

[PO2FinClk]

Part of the many gripes I have with the BOR.

Your post has me confused as it is responsibility of the MP Section to issue new ID cards, not any Base Orderly Room.