PRETC thread (merged)

[Wright]

Who here as been a member or is currently a member of the unit called PRETC.

1. I believe that the idea is good, let new members train and get ready for upcoming courses.
2. However, they are understaffed, way to many people, what was the latest count, something like 550 members i heard, to many people for the 15 NCOs that they have on staff, and that is being generous.
3. The sick parade shitpumps there, get a grip, you joined the military, get used to inspection, i hate garrison completely and i still stuck around for them.
4. AWOL, too many people are goin AWOL for periods of three weeks or so , and getting away with it, get strict pretty damn quick, i am talkin send people to Club Med in eddy to straighten them out.
5. Also, Morale there is pretty damn low, if they are gonna train, put them in the damn field, doin section attacks against the other companies, (for those that dont know their are too companies Alpha and Bravo, each has 3 platoons,) Recce patrols, get them used to using the equipment they will be using for the rest of their lives or careers. Lose the regs that say that they cant teach them what they havent been taught already, they know it , what is the point of learning the C7 drills over again, they all know them off by heart, teach them new stuff, rope bridges, defensive/offensive strategies, 90% of the memebrs there have to do SQ, it will help them in the end.
5. Let the staff be informed, recently alot of the staff dont know when certain people courses are that are in their platoon,  it is confusing to get a run around and get sent from COY office to COY clerk, to OPS to or back to your COY office, again and again
6. keep the drive up,

 

[punkd]

2. However, they are understaffed, way to many people, what was the latest count, something like 550 members i heard, to many people for the 15 NCOs that they have on staff, and that is being generous.

What can they possibly organize when they can barely get weekend leave passes back for everyone. It's a definite staffing problem and I don't see it getting much better unless they can get some more nco's in there to help.  But at the same time, I don't see why they dont get the 100 or so troops that just sit around all day at T83 to help orgainize as well.  ???

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I have never been to Borden, let alone PRETC, but if the problem is a lack of NCOs, maybe that is because of these things called Operations.  Like, say all the TFs that are just returning, taking over, and training for the next roto.

I am sure the NCOs at PRETC are letting the CoC know they are short, and most likely the CoC has acknowledged this, and told them the NCOs are needed elsewhere worse.

I am not sure about this AWOL for 3 weeks and nothing being done.  I have a friend who was AWOL for 2 days and I am assuming he is in cells, cause I haven't heard from him since he got his RDP. 

Anyways, like I said, just a shot in the dark,  I am sure there is an NCO from Borden/PRETC who could wade in and provide some info.

Cheers

Mud

 

[Jinpa]

Hi There,

The original poster is not too far off.  The problem is definently understaffing.  Mcpl Pronovost god bless him is one of the best PRETC
staff there and he'll be the first to admit, that they are WAY understaffed.  Shitpumps flourish there for sure, the problem being that alot of the people that end up there are coming fresh from BMQ and this is the first chance they have to relax and not get yelled at for lint on the collar. 

I agree that more training could take place, like the 4 day winter op that took place in late Feb (can't remember the name of it) it was fun, but took alot of the staff away for 4 days.  which left whoever remained in PRETC with even more work. 

Morale is low, because PRETC is a revolving door, absolutely no unit cohesion is present at all, and the fact being noone's there long enough to form any anyway.  PRETC is a good idea and could definently benefit and maybe even flourish with about 15 more NCO's. 

As for the AWOL, I have personally seen it (not 3 weeks mind you, but upwards of 2-3 days) and the punishment usually consisted of doing weekday or weekend duty.  For all those that haven't done PRETC duty, it consisted of sitting in the TV room all night watching movies or playing video games (BIG screen TV's btw).  Then you get to sleep all day and miss the parades and useless stuff that goes on during the day.  Most times shitpumps prayed for duty, cause it was alot more fun than anything that went on during the day. 

Overall, PRETC is somewhat like the theory of communism - Great on paper, doesn't work so well in practice.

Cheers
Jinpa

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I guess the point I was trying to make was...they are probably aware that there is a shotage of NCOs and it is because they have to prioritize where they go, and what they do, and it would seem something else was deemed a higher priority...

Again, call it an educated guess on my part, I am not there...

 

[Meridian]

I could be way out of my lane here, so please correct me if Im wrong, but:

Isn't the reason for this "unit"s existence because there is not enough room in the training system to get these guys on their MOC courses?

If so, then isn't the reason the CF can not run more courses because primarily we do not have enough staff capable of running them? 

If so, then would'nt pulling more NCOs off to run this glorified PAT unit mean LESS staff available to actually run the additional courses and get these guys into qualified boots?

Again, maybe Im misinterpreting the purpose...

 

[George Wallace]

Again, maybe Im misinterpreting the purpose...

I would speculate....Yes you are!

You are way outside your Lane.

It does exist because there is not enough room at the time in the training system to get these guys MOC courses, because they have arrived too early or too late for those courses, or the courses are already filled.

Yes you are correct to say that the CF can not run more courses because primarily we do not have enough qualified staff, nor for that fact facilities and equipment, to qualify these guys.

You are totally wrong in assuming that the NCOs who are administrating the 'glorified PAT unit' mean LESS staff available to actually run the additional courses and get these people qualified, as many of those NCOs may not be qualified to TEACH.  They do relieve the strain on those who are, by being Administrative, in managing pers awaiting Crse.

As the never-ending cries for the 'Peace Dividend' slowly slashed away at the strength of the CF and reduced Bases, Equipment purchases, Upgrades, etc., the cost of such practices over the past fifty years have finally come home to roust.

If you don't see the problem, then let's try this analogy:  A University has had it's Tenured Teachers/Professors slowly cut back for the past fifty years, and it has seen it's infrastructure reduced by 75% in that time, leaving it with far less facilities and qualified Professors than it had in 1950.  Now it has doubled it's student intake in one years time and can't place all it's students into classes, so it has the Administrative Staff keep them occupied until there are openings in Classes that will start up at a later date.  Would you then say that the Administrative Staff are in any way Professors and should be teaching classes to these students awaiting classes, in say....perhaps..... an open Football Stadium?

 

[Meridian]

Thanks George. Points noted.

Though I am curious;  how much of the "training strain" is personnel related vs. equipment or facilities? 
From the civilian taxpayer point of view, media reports (and to be fair, a lot of the comments on here) seem to refer to it being more of an OPTEMPO related thing...  e.g. the facilities and the equipment can more or less be easily found if the training (and related admin support) exist to activate it all.

Put another way, how much of PRETC is really something we have always needed and never done, and how much of it is a stop-gap measure to do something with all of the staff coming in from a rapidly accelerated recruiting process and a training system that needs to catchup?

 

[George Wallace]

It is a combination of "All the Above".  The Liberals closed down the second Recruit Base (Cornwallis) in their reduction of the Forces in the 1990s.  Borden has been tasked to catch the overflow from St Jean in the business of Recruit Training.  Many of the 'Purple Trades' lost their upcoming NCOs in the 1990s to FRP, another Liberal plan to bring about Force Reduction (Plan).  Without those Purple Trade NCOs to advance and gain experience there can be no pool to draw instructors from when OPTEMPO requires them to be in Theatre.  An Infantry NCO can be sent to the Schools to Administer a group of PRETC/PAT/etc., but (s)he can not teach them a 'Purple' Trade.

 

[Meridian]

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[Cloud Cover]

An Infantry NCO can be sent to the Schools to Administer a group of PRETC/PAT/etc., but (s)he can not teach them a 'Purple' Trade.

Unless, of course, rock painting is a purple trade.

 

[Wright]

The thing is is that there are enough NCOs, it is the fact that the Nvos there where enuf guff from everyone higher that no-one wants it,
and they are all reservists NCOs there. i really think that they should look into the schools havin their own pats like cfsait dos, cfsait has half the troubles if not less then PRETC

 

[scotty884]

I've been there a week and I had to use up my accumulated leave to get out of there.  I'm an OT and I felt degraded there.  I got almost 6 yrs in and well I'm treated like a cornflake.  Yes disicipline is missing there, HUGE, last time our coy "marched"  they actually walked, talked, SMOKED, and had spits while marching.  I tell ya if this is the product of what is to come we are all in for a bad situation boys.  Alot of these people tryin to keep a grip on them are over worked and under manned.  I give the staff complete credit, they are doing what they can with the bunch of idiots they have down there.  I actually felt ashamed of our training system, for the first time.  I dont think they teach what those hero's in the world wars did so we can wear the uniforms we wear.  FOR CHRIST SAKE U WEAR THE FLAG ON YOUR LEFT SHOULDER, start serving it.  Again I dont think the staff is at fault here.  I praise there efforts with wat they got.

 

[NiTz]

I' ve been there for 4 months before christmas and guess what? I'm getting back there in 2 weeks! Not only PRETC is lacking organization and disclipline, but it's also a morale downer for the troops. Think about it : wasting your time AWAY from your family to WAIT for a course that "maybe" will start "soon". Everyone that has been there can tell you : they (the staff) have no clue of what's going on. It's not completely their fault : they have so many people to take care of! They just walk out of their office and 5 or 6 people grab them to ask questions about their course. They cannot give answers to the troops as to when their MOC course starts, when they'll go on SQ, etc. because they don't have the answers themselves!

I waited 1 month for an appointment and they've lost 6 of my memos over there. That's insane! How can someone lose 6 memos??? Guess what? I had to go see a Padre and complain and I got my appointment in the next hour... I'll tell you more. I'm in Kingston right now, and I have 1 whole year of waiting before my next course (no instructors available to teach me my trade!! ). I tried to push a memo from kingston to have an OJT (My wife is in Montreal) and they refused it! They said they want to keep "control" of OJTs. So this is going to cost the DND 2 travel claims instead of 1! I could have gone directly from Kingston to Montreal, saving 1 claim and lots of time to the NCOs in PRETC! It's this kind of stupid decisions that make PRETC troops unhappy and that's understandable from my point of view. And the worst part is that i'm gonna have to go to Borden (7 hours drive from my wife) to fight all week to get this OJT because they're so busy they won't have time to process my memo (that is if they don't lose it).

Here's my suggestion : why don't they send the troops directly on OJT at a unit near their home for the time they have to wait? The member would then get a sheet of when his courses start, and then report to whatever base the course is given at, and that's it! PRETC is not a bad idea itself, but it doesn't work, and it will never work! There will always be shitpumps, and there will always be troops like me that polish theirs boots, are up to standard and never missing work that will pay for the said shitpumps that stay in bed in the morning instead of reporting for work.

And according to my friends that went to CFSATE PAT, it is not better than PRETC at all... sitting in a cafeteria all day playing cards, WITHOUT having the right to go to the gym or even go for a run...

So whatever you do, try to stay away from pat plt at all costs!

Cheers!

Nitz

 

[George Wallace]

:crybaby:

Absolutely brilliant.  As if there was a military base near Weyburn, Sask.; or Thunder Bay, Ont.; or Trout Creek; or St Louis de Ha Ha; or Dawson Creek; or where ever some new recruit comes from........Thinking only of yourself..... :crybaby:

 

[NiTz]

George, i'm just trying to find a solution that may help them out there.. would'nt you prefer an OJT instead of sitting and waiting all day? I know that they can't send people directly to their towns if there is no military base around...But maybe getting closer would be better than staying in Borden.

 

[big bad john]

Self centered thinking.  George hit it on the head.  Suck it up lad.  Being a Soldier is about going down the easy path All l the time.  Sometimes you have to make a sacrifice.  You don't always get to know why either.  So be a Soldier and do the best job you can, with what you've got, WHERE they put you.

 

[George Wallace]

How many things have already been pointed out on this subject in this and other topics.  It has been discussed and reasons put forward for the problems and why they are there.  It is a very sad fact of life, and unfortunately some are like you in the most extreme case of the problem.  I am sure that someone in the Training System is trying hard to solve the problem.  Then again, perhaps changing Trades may be an option too.  

Personally, I think you guys on PRETC should be taken up to Meaford and put through a SQ Crse while you are waiting.  Get that over with and also give you some very valuable Cbt skills that you may need to save your life.

 

[NiTz]

I do my best everyday and i'm very satisfied with my trade. Good idea about the sq tough, it would be valuable for air Force and navy personnel as well.
My post was just to give an example of what's happening there, and believe me it was not intended to be self-centered. And I know that being a soldier is not easy but we can still try to do something to improve our comfort a little.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

The thing is is that there are enough NCOs, it is the fact that the Nvos there where enuf guff from everyone higher that no-one wants it,
and they are all reservists NCOs there. i really think that they should look into the schools havin their own pats like cfsait dos, cfsait has half the troubles if not less then PRETC

Whats the point of them being Reservist NCOs, being that you have oh less than a year and are not even MOC qualified, your experience on the matter is....what?

There are good AND bad NCOs, weak AND strong NCOs in both the Regular AND Reserve Force.  Its not the uniform Wright its the people in it.  Wouldn't you agree?

Spell check is a good idea too.  Oh, and there is a bigger picture that might be causing this problem, remember what rung on the ladder you are at. 

If CFSAIT has less problems maybe the troops there are more discplined and have a grip on themselves.  NCOs aren't the blame here.  Reg OR Reserve.

I love when people who don't understand the problem have all the solutions... :