Premier Ford To Use "Notwithstanding" Against Education Staff- split fromFreedom Convoy Protests

[brihard]

Just an observation. Not a reentry
I used to make less than that with zero benefits and supported my family in the not to distant past. Know what I did?

I got a better job.

Absolutely. But that’s exactly the risk the education system faces. What happens if a significant portion of the experienced support workers in education pop smoke and go elsewhere? Have we not been reading about a labour shortage for much of the past year? Do we want early childhood educators and librarians saying “fine, fuck it” and going elsewhere?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not gonna do it brih

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Part of the pay problem is the dynamic of the so powerful teachers union, and the much weaker support staff union. It's like the doctor/nurse dynamic, where, most of the time, a nurse can do anything, and sometimes more, then any doctor but look how they fought upgrading responsibility/pay to the nurses.

A bit of moronic military thinking in there also, "How could they do the job, they're just corporals."
Not a shot at teachers, my family was blessed with great ones, but the union group think of protectionism.

 

[Furniture]

Absolutely. But that’s exactly the risk the education system faces. What happens if a significant portion of the experienced support workers in education pop smoke and go elsewhere? Have we not been reading about a labour shortage for much of the past year? Do we want early childhood educators and librarians saying “fine, fuck it” and going elsewhere?

Will they leave? As I pointed out earlier, they make less than the average Canadian annual income, but also have a generous benefits package.

Realistically, I think the sector would be better off in the long run of people did leave for "greener" pastures. Right now, the government is facing down a union asking for an 11.7% annual raise, while the average Canadian got a 1.8% raise. The government can't very well give in to this union, or every other union will ask for 11.7%, and the average non-government voter will revolt over government workers getting more generous raises, on top of their already generous benefits.

If people quit, the government can sell pay increases as a way to attract talent.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

.

 

[brihard]

Will they leave? As I pointed out earlier, they make less than the average Canadian annual income, but also have a generous benefits package.

Realistically, I think the sector would be better off in the long run of people did leave for "greener" pastures. Right now, the government is facing down a union asking for an 11.7% annual raise, while the average Canadian got a 1.8% raise. The government can't very well give in to this union, or every other union will ask for 11.7%, and the average non-government voter will revolt over government workers getting more generous raises, on top of their already generous benefits.

If people quit, the government can sell pay increases as a way to attract talent.

Are the benefits that generous? My mind immediately leaps to pension, which is derived from salary. Looking at their supplementary medical benefits, some are pretty decent, some not so much, but overall pretty par for the course for public sector extended health.

A benefits package becomes less generous when you realize it’s bloody critical because there’s pretty much no way they could cover certain costs themselves on their pay.

 

[YZT580]

I remember having to do that. Clean the chalk boards and brushes, and sweep and mop the classroom floors.

You're right it should be brought back.

having custodial staff walk out should not cause a school to close, full stop. If it does than the importance of said staff is equal to the teacher and they should be designated as essential, as should the teachers. But they are not. Each teacher should be able to empty the waste bucket at the end of the day. The only cruddy job is cleaning the washrooms and that could be assigned to the senior classes on rotation. But that won't happen and, because it won't happen Ford took probably the only action open to him other than caving in imho.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Will they leave? As I pointed out earlier, they make less than the average Canadian annual income, but also have a generous benefits package.

Realistically, I think the sector would be better off in the long run of people did leave for "greener" pastures. Right now, the government is facing down a union asking for an 11.7% annual raise, while the average Canadian got a 1.8% raise. The government can't very well give in to this union, or every other union will ask for 11.7%, and the average non-government voter will revolt over government workers getting more generous raises, on top of their already generous benefits.

If people quit, the government can sell pay increases as a way to attract talent.

Asking and getting are two different things. The government also initially offered 1.5% which is a joke in the current enviroment.

Yes the union needs to come down a bit but the government needs to come up, hence negotiating.

My union got us a 3% raise each year on top of a cost of living allowance that gets added to our pay which is the equivalent of inflation. This is a private sector job.

There is a reason unions are growing in strength in the last couple years and it all has to do with companies and governments refusing to negotiate fair deals.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

having custodial staff walk out should not cause a school to close, full stop. If it does than the importance of said staff is equal to the teacher and they should be designated as essential, as should the teachers. But they are not. Each teacher should be able to empty the waste bucket at the end of the day. The only cruddy job is cleaning the washrooms and that could be assigned to the senior classes on rotation. But that won't happen and, because it won't happen Ford took probably the only action open to him other than caving in imho.

So many things wrong in that post in reference to custodial staff. Eyes and ears of the security of a school, an adult to talk too outside the school 'system', tension between students, lots of little things that you'd never even know or think about.

I'll never forget Dad's stash of shoes and stuff left behind from previous years for those he would notice needed them.....

 

[brihard]

Asking and getting are two different things. The government also initially offered 1.5% which is a joke in the current enviroment.

Yes the union needs to come down a bit but the government needs to come up, hence negotiating.

My union got us a 3% raise each year on top of a cost of living allowance that gets added to our pay which is the equivalent of inflation. This is a private sector job.

There is a reason unions are growing in strength in the last couple years and it all has to do with companies and governments refusing to negotiate fair deals.

Inflation indexed cost of living allowance? Damn. Nice.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Inflation indexed cost of living allowance? Damn. Nice.

Yep, which then gets added to the base pay at the end of each year. Then the 3% raise takes effect and the allowance starts again.

Absolutely insane contract, only made possible by a perfect storm of events to make it work.

Not saying that should be what they end up going for, just showing that not everyone is getting 1.5% either.

 

[brihard]

Yep, which then gets added to the base pay at the end of each year. Then the 3% raise takes effect and the allowance starts again.

Absolutely insane contract, only made possible by a perfect storm of events to make it work.

Not saying that should be what they end up going for, just showing that not everyone is getting 1.5% either.

Wow. Raises on top of inflation right now are extremely impressive.

 

[Furniture]

Are the benefits that generous? My mind immediately leaps to pension, which is derived from salary. Looking at their supplementary medical benefits, some are pretty decent, some not so much, but overall pretty par for the course for public sector extended health.

A benefits package becomes less generous when you realize it’s bloody critical because there’s pretty much no way they could cover certain costs themselves on their pay.

Compared to your benefits, they are likely pretty crap...but you, and I happen to belong to professions with unusually generous benefits.

Medical, dental, glasses, ambulance, semi-private hospital rooms, etc.. It's more than many Canadians get, and they earn on average only a few thousand a year more. How many people earning $45-50K a year would gladly have a guaranteed paycheque every two weeks, and benefits on top of that for a couple hundred less a month before taxes?

Asking and getting are two different things. The government also initially offered 1.5% which is a joke in the current enviroment.

Yes the union needs to come down a bit but the government needs to come up, hence negotiating.

My union got us a 3% raise each year on top of a cost of living allowance that gets added to our pay which is the equivalent of inflation. This is a private sector job.

There is a reason unions are growing in strength in the last couple years and it all has to do with companies and governments refusing to negotiate fair deals.

Would you consider asking for more than 6x what the government was offering a reasonable starting point? I get that negotiations are about a back and forth, but when someone is asking for 8x what you're offering, there is a massive disconnect.

 

[brihard]

Compared to your benefits, they are likely pretty crap...but you, and I happen to belong to professions with unusually generous benefits.

Medical, dental, glasses, ambulance, semi-private hospital rooms, etc.. It's more than many Canadians get, and they earn on average only a few thousand a year more. How many people earning $45-50K a year would gladly have a guaranteed paycheque every two weeks, and benefits on top of that for a couple hundred less a month before taxes?

Would you consider asking for more than 6x what the government was offering a reasonable starting point? I get that negotiations are about a back and forth, but when someone is asking for 8x what you're offering, there is a massive disconnect.

No actually, their benefits (extended health, at least) are in the same ballpark as mine at a glance. Some better, some worse.

Would I expect my union to ask for much more than the government offered? Yes, if that was what was fair, absolutely. In this specific case, given their historical pay falling consistently shot of inflation this year, absolutely I think a big ask is reasonable. If the province is ludicrously full of shut in what it’s proposing, then yeah, a reasonable counter offer may not be in the same ballpark.

 

[Kilted]

Anyone who thinks teachers are over paid should go be a teacher and deal with the little pricks that some of you also raise as your kids.

Not enough money in the world to get me to do that job. If it was up to me that profession would be in constant state of work to rule.

I also never understood why professions turn on each other during a strike. Stop looking at your peers and start looking at your masters, that's where the problem is.

I worked in a high school in a non-unionized role dealing directly with students, often when the teachers couldn't handle them. I still think that teachers are overpaid. If you are on the sunshine list for working just over nine months a year, that's pretty good. There is a reason why it's hard to get a full-time teaching job. Personally, I think that many of the issues could be dealt with more effectively if the school boards would actually back the schools when it comes to disciplining students and not be worried about upsetting parents, so that they can be re-elected next time around. I think that it would do wonders if trustee positions were held by unelected people.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Would you consider asking for more than 6x what the government was offering a reasonable starting point? I get that negotiations are about a back and forth, but when someone is asking for 8x what you're offering, there is a massive disconnect.

Considering the governments starting point is 1/4th of inflation, is yeah its a reasonable start.

I suspect they would be happy with the inflation rate, possibly with a percent or two thrown in (basically somewhere in the 5-8% range). 1.5% offer today in the current enviroment is a joke. Yes the average increase at the moment is 1.5% but that is mainly because of contracts negotiated before this inflationary period.
Most the current contracts I have heard of being negotiated at the moment are at least 3% if not more (some substantially more).

If I was the government I would try to go for a 3 year contract offer with a 5-8% a year in increases and hopefully in 3 years time inflation is down and they can go back down on wage increases.

 

[dimsum]

and the average non-government voter will revolt over government workers getting more generous raises, on top of their already generous benefits.

To paraphrase someone else, then they can look for a job in the govt.

But people are forgetting/ignoring that just a few months ago, the ON govt was very proud of their $2B surplus this year, after capping nurse, etc wage increases.

 

[dapaterson]

In all this discussion, it's interesting to note that there was a four year stretch where the CUPE members received zero increase. Under McGuinty and Wynne, from 2012-2015 inclusive, when inflation ran about 5.5% cumulative.

While the current government wears the current problems, there's plenty of blame to be shared.

 

[mariomike]

We’re willing to pay cops and firefighters over $100k, yet people who are apparently essential for the well being of kids and the economic opportunities of parents get less than half that? That ain’t right.

Top rate paramedics ( below supervisor ) in my town are paid $60.30 per hour X 40 hours per week.

Add to that, shift premium, stat holidays, OT, wash up / lock up time, meal break money, off-duty mandatory Base Hospital Continuing Medical Education etc.

One paramedic ( below a supervisor ) made $241,119 in 2021. The 2022 sunshine list comes out in spring 2023.

The wage increases are,

January 1, 2020 – 1.98% January 1, 2021 – 1.77% January 1, 2022 – 1.77% January 1, 2023 – 1.99% January 1, 2024 – 1.99%
( Not sure if that was, or was not, already included in the wages published in the collective agreement. There was also a job evaluation arbitration award. )

All sorts of stuff in the collective agreement now ( PTSD in particular ) that we never dreamed of.

I looked up "custodian" - city properties, but not schools - top rate is $32.89 per hour.

Not sure without seeing the custodian job call, but I believe they would be paid a 35-hour week. Although they may have a "running lunch".

 

[Brad Sallows]

The recent posting of surpluses by some provincial governments was likely a one-time thing, not something to plan years of future spending on.

I haven't seen anything which describe what kind of jobs make up the current demand. Not sure many people want to make the jump to barista, for example. Anyways, lots of immigrants coming in each year.

Bottom line right now: freeze everything else and "fix health care".