Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
- Thread starter ggranatstein
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CEEBEE501 said:
Yes, sorry, you are correct
ballz
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I've never been called "Mister," I always thought that was for superiors officers referring to a Sergeant-Major.
Generally, I get called Sir by random clerks calling or emailing me, but I always thought it was a mistake, as my superiors just call me "OCdt ________" and so did all my instructors on my courses.
Quite frankly, call an OCdt whatever you want. We're just bags of hammers at the bottom of the food chain like yourself. I would just refer to an OCdt as "OCdt _______," or better yet, just their last name, if I were you. And if the said OCdt says anything to you about not calling him "Sir," give him a seriousslap verbal slap upside the head for being a tit. No one will care, we're right at the bottom with ya.
For question #1, study this http://army.ca/info/ranks.php and if you get caught on the spot and don't know, explain and ask. Nobody's going to jack you up for being brand new, not having done BMQ, and putting in a genuine effort to learn.
Generally, I get called Sir by random clerks calling or emailing me, but I always thought it was a mistake, as my superiors just call me "OCdt ________" and so did all my instructors on my courses.
Quite frankly, call an OCdt whatever you want. We're just bags of hammers at the bottom of the food chain like yourself. I would just refer to an OCdt as "OCdt _______," or better yet, just their last name, if I were you. And if the said OCdt says anything to you about not calling him "Sir," give him a serious
For question #1, study this http://army.ca/info/ranks.php and if you get caught on the spot and don't know, explain and ask. Nobody's going to jack you up for being brand new, not having done BMQ, and putting in a genuine effort to learn.
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ballz said:
Calling a Regimental Sergeant Major or other CWO "Mister" is a usage best left to senior officers and the occasional Captain who's been around long enough to remember when that RSM was a Corporal or Private soldier. Company Sergeant Majors and MWOs are not addressed as "Mister".
ballz said:
The addressing of Officer Cadets is not a simple matter, and deprecating it as such is not appropriate. There's a big difference between brand new OCdts on course who are still learning the basics and individuals of that rank who are a few years into their training who may actually be on the strength of units and appointed to hold positions while awaiting their return to the appropriate training establishment. Some Officer Cadets may have extensive prior service, in their current Corps or another, and do not deserve to be referred to as "bags of hammer" or to be dealing with the impression that they do not deserve to be treated civilly as members of the Canadian Forces.
As with anyone else, if you're not sure how to address someone, err of the side of caution and politeness, and ASK someone what is appropriate. Lastly, keep in mind that the opinion of the nearest and most outspoken individual is not always the most accurate advice.
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Point to note:
DO NOT call Navy CPO2s or CPO1s (MWOs and CWOs respectively) Sir. They are referred to simply as "Chief" when addressing them; no distinguishing between the two. Failure to do so may result in a little more than the proverbial 'slap upside the head'!
DO NOT call Navy CPO2s or CPO1s (MWOs and CWOs respectively) Sir. They are referred to simply as "Chief" when addressing them; no distinguishing between the two. Failure to do so may result in a little more than the proverbial 'slap upside the head'!
J
jollyjacktar
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Further to clarify on Pat's point. The same treatment goes for PO1 and PO2 (Warrant Officer and Sergeant respectively) as well. They are both addressed as "PO" in the same manner as Chiefs are. Makes things a little easier think.
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In all cases it's correct to refer to a member by his or her rank and last name: "I was talking to Captain Bloggins yesterday." or "Do you know where I can find Corporal Smith?".
The first step is to learn the rank structure (and it will be one less thing you have to do on BMQ). Here's a good source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/acf-apfc/Insig/army-armee-eng.asp (I assume you're in the army, but the naval equivalents are shown on this page as well. Air force ranks are the same as army ranks.) If you know an NCM's rank, that's what you call him, as in "Good morning Master Corporal". If you don't know his rank then my advice is not to call him anything unless told otherwise -- which you might be rather quickly! (As a recruit you should anticipate being corrected frequently, and not always gently.)
I understand that Master Warrant Officers and Chief Warrant Officers are called "sir" in the army by those of lower rank. Certain ones are addressed by their position, as in "Good afternoon RSM" if you happen to be talking to the Regimental Sergeant Major.
Officer cadets are officers so you call them "sir" or "ma'am" just as you would any other officer.
The difference between officer cadets and higher-ranking officers is that the latter have a commission, which is a document from the Queen that confers certain responsibilities and authority on them. When you meet a commissioned officer (2Lt and above) you salute or, if in civilian attire and wearing a hat, tip your hat. (That's what the book says to do, but in practice it's not universally observed -- probably at least in part because men rarely wear hats now compared with the past.)
If you work or have another similar relationship with someone who is also a higher-ranking CF member it's not necessary to keep a parade-ground level of formality when you're both off duty. In the reserves it's understood that you may have a different working relationship on civvie street than in the Service. But if you happen to pass an officer you recognize in the street when you're both off duty a cheeerful "Good evening sir" would probably not be out of place.
hantzu said:
The first step is to learn the rank structure (and it will be one less thing you have to do on BMQ). Here's a good source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/acf-apfc/Insig/army-armee-eng.asp (I assume you're in the army, but the naval equivalents are shown on this page as well. Air force ranks are the same as army ranks.) If you know an NCM's rank, that's what you call him, as in "Good morning Master Corporal". If you don't know his rank then my advice is not to call him anything unless told otherwise -- which you might be rather quickly! (As a recruit you should anticipate being corrected frequently, and not always gently.)
I understand that Master Warrant Officers and Chief Warrant Officers are called "sir" in the army by those of lower rank. Certain ones are addressed by their position, as in "Good afternoon RSM" if you happen to be talking to the Regimental Sergeant Major.
Officer cadets are officers so you call them "sir" or "ma'am" just as you would any other officer.
The difference between officer cadets and higher-ranking officers is that the latter have a commission, which is a document from the Queen that confers certain responsibilities and authority on them. When you meet a commissioned officer (2Lt and above) you salute or, if in civilian attire and wearing a hat, tip your hat. (That's what the book says to do, but in practice it's not universally observed -- probably at least in part because men rarely wear hats now compared with the past.)
If you work or have another similar relationship with someone who is also a higher-ranking CF member it's not necessary to keep a parade-ground level of formality when you're both off duty. In the reserves it's understood that you may have a different working relationship on civvie street than in the Service. But if you happen to pass an officer you recognize in the street when you're both off duty a cheeerful "Good evening sir" would probably not be out of place.
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ballz said:
This is not especially sound advice. Despite a lot of similarities, an officer cadet is not the same thing as a private, and they do outrank privates by a significant margin.
In the unique situation in the militia of having officer cadets and privates on the same BMQ course it makes sense that the lines would be blurred somewhat and an OCdt who seeks to flex his or her authority in that situation would, I imagine, be setting himself or herself up for a very rough time. But my advice is to leave the verbal slapping upside the head to the course staff.
I say this not having done a mixed BMQ, so perhaps someone who has taught one may have some useful advice for that situation. I've been on one course that was mixed junior officers (Lt[N] and SLt) and NCMs (MS, PO1, and CPO2) and we quickly settled into an informal style among the candidates with first names used outside of working hours.
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Well the good (bad?) thing about the CF is that there is a publication for everything. Chapter 11 in The Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces publication (the 200) details forms of address for CF members. I've included the parts most people will probably find useful. The table in the attached Annex A of the chapter will probably be most clear:
CHAPTER 11
MILITARY FORMS OF ADDRESS
GENERAL POLICY
1. This chapter:
a. amplifies the National Defence Act, Section 21, and Queen's Regulations and Orders (QR&O), Article 3.01;
b. prescribes the correct forms of address for members of the Canadian Forces (CF) and establishes the standard for use by CF members, but
c. does not preclude the local use of terms or titles based on traditional establishment appointments, e.g., gunner, sergeant-major.
2. In general, CF members may be addressed by either:
a. Rank and surname;
b. Rank;
c. Appointment (including parade appointments);
FORMAL ADDRESS
9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
a. Officers shall be addressed –
(1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
(2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branch usage –
(a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
(b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma’am as applicable; and
(3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma’am as applicable.
b. Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed by all ranks –
(1) by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment; or
(2) for army and air force chief warrant officers –
(a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
(b) by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma’am as appropriate.
c. Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment.
INFORMAL ADDRESS
10. Normally, short forms of address (see Annex A) are limited to informal speech and in the salutation of informal correspondence.
11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued use of given names in a social setting within the bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military discipline.
CHAPTER 11
MILITARY FORMS OF ADDRESS
GENERAL POLICY
1. This chapter:
a. amplifies the National Defence Act, Section 21, and Queen's Regulations and Orders (QR&O), Article 3.01;
b. prescribes the correct forms of address for members of the Canadian Forces (CF) and establishes the standard for use by CF members, but
c. does not preclude the local use of terms or titles based on traditional establishment appointments, e.g., gunner, sergeant-major.
2. In general, CF members may be addressed by either:
a. Rank and surname;
b. Rank;
c. Appointment (including parade appointments);
FORMAL ADDRESS
9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
a. Officers shall be addressed –
(1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
(2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branch usage –
(a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
(b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma’am as applicable; and
(3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma’am as applicable.
b. Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed by all ranks –
(1) by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment; or
(2) for army and air force chief warrant officers –
(a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
(b) by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma’am as appropriate.
c. Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment.
INFORMAL ADDRESS
10. Normally, short forms of address (see Annex A) are limited to informal speech and in the salutation of informal correspondence.
11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued use of given names in a social setting within the bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military discipline.
Hello,
New here to the forums, so I apologize if this has been covered before. Here is my Issue.
I've been in the Cf for almost 17 years as an NCM and Officer. I remember that as a junior that you always addressed
your MWO, CWO, Officer superiors as either Sir or Ma'am.
Over the last decade or so, I have been noticing a trend where subordinates or junior ranks have
been addressing superiors as simply , MWO, CWO, Lt or Capt in email greetings or phone calls, sometimes without even using a last name.
I have never found a solid reference for exactly how protocol should be for this.
Today, I got an email from a MCpl whom I have never met addressing me simply as my rank acronym. Am I over reacting here
or is this something that should be a tad more formal, that I should be addressing.
Thank You
New here to the forums, so I apologize if this has been covered before. Here is my Issue.
I've been in the Cf for almost 17 years as an NCM and Officer. I remember that as a junior that you always addressed
your MWO, CWO, Officer superiors as either Sir or Ma'am.
Over the last decade or so, I have been noticing a trend where subordinates or junior ranks have
been addressing superiors as simply , MWO, CWO, Lt or Capt in email greetings or phone calls, sometimes without even using a last name.
I have never found a solid reference for exactly how protocol should be for this.
Today, I got an email from a MCpl whom I have never met addressing me simply as my rank acronym. Am I over reacting here
or is this something that should be a tad more formal, that I should be addressing.
Thank You
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FWIW, I don't think you're out of line here.
I see it as evidence that the formality that most of us expect, is being allowed to slip. I'm still very much of the opinion that when you're addressing correspondence to someone you don't know, using their rank and name is the polite thing to do. If they outrank you, then sir or ma'am as the case may be is appropriate. The only time that I use someone's rank only is when my message is directive in nature. Otherwise, my tone is more collegial.
I see it as evidence that the formality that most of us expect, is being allowed to slip. I'm still very much of the opinion that when you're addressing correspondence to someone you don't know, using their rank and name is the polite thing to do. If they outrank you, then sir or ma'am as the case may be is appropriate. The only time that I use someone's rank only is when my message is directive in nature. Otherwise, my tone is more collegial.
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I've always been of the mind that in conversation you use the rank/name the first time and Sir/Ma'am after that. At the same time though Sir/Ma'am is a good all around default. When it comes to written comms I personally start off an email with something along the lines of "Good day Sir" but really, I don't see a problem with it starting "Good day Capt" although it's not my personal writing style.
The majority of the emails I get start off with "Sir" however a few have a simple "MWO" instead and its never something I've ever taken offence with since both are essentially correct.
The majority of the emails I get start off with "Sir" however a few have a simple "MWO" instead and its never something I've ever taken offence with since both are essentially correct.
OldSolduer
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MWO = Sir (or Sergeant Major if appointed) Navy MWO are CPO2 and addressed as "Chief" RCN please correct me.
CWO = Sir or RSM (If you are appointed RSM). Navy CWO = CPO 1 and addressed as "Chief" or "Cox" if so appointed. RCN again, please set me straight if I am f**ked up.
Officers are "Sir" for ALL NCMs. Junior to senior should always address as "sir".
CWO = Sir or RSM (If you are appointed RSM). Navy CWO = CPO 1 and addressed as "Chief" or "Cox" if so appointed. RCN again, please set me straight if I am f**ked up.
Officers are "Sir" for ALL NCMs. Junior to senior should always address as "sir".
Retired AF Guy
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Hamish Seggie said:
What about O/Cdts?
All good input, thank you.
It's always been a big questions mark in terms of the official way to do things.
But I agree with ModlrMike in the sense that the respect is starting to slip with the newer generations and I feel most of it is due to some superiors lax attitude towards it. if I don't correct them and maintain standard who will?
Too many juniors simply walk by their seniors with a "high five, what's up" attitude and I disagree with this trend.
And Is there not a CF reference for this?
It's always been a big questions mark in terms of the official way to do things.
But I agree with ModlrMike in the sense that the respect is starting to slip with the newer generations and I feel most of it is due to some superiors lax attitude towards it. if I don't correct them and maintain standard who will?
Too many juniors simply walk by their seniors with a "high five, what's up" attitude and I disagree with this trend.
And Is there not a CF reference for this?
Retired AF Guy said:
There is a reference for this and what I remember it's either "Officer Cadet, or Sir/Ma'am" is acceptable.
Same thing with salutes: mbrs do not typically salute Cadets being subordinate officers, however they may salute if desired and you will return it.
Although I'm sure most have their own names for cadets they would like to use lol
OldSolduer
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Retired AF Guy said:
In my mind its still "sir".
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