Paid Education [Merged]

[Gunner]

Chikn suckr

Aside from all you members of the reserve that would wish us to join them in da Mo-litia, The issue I am talking about is the Reg. Force and retiring from it. We should not have to retire after our contract is finished and then sign up for the reserve to get the reimbursement due to us.

You don't have to join the Reserves to get reimbursement.  As stated above, you are entitled to $8K under the Skills Completion Program when you retire.  If you don't want to join "da Mo-litia" you can pay your own way.  I mentioned it as an option to get up to $16K in funding for educational reimbursement.

Another great use of the system, as mentioned by the post above about the 4 year trial, once the policy has been changed, it gets erased from all web resources! This serves to effectively erase our souce of reference to compare the policies, new and old. I hope we have a good memory, as Im sure there is not going to be a lot of printed documentation laying around that can be referred to. We can now all use the he said, she said, and I heard... system of barracks box lawyerisms.

And if you didn't take advantage of the program over the last 5 years, why are you upset now?  Why didn't you take advantage of it like others did?

Canadian Sig

This whole thing comes down to conditions of our contracts. In effect we are requiered to stick to the contract we sign but the Government can change it to their benefit at any time. I was hired under the understanding that if I chose to leave after my first BE ( I chose not to leave ) I would have some education benefits. If that isnt true anymore than ins'nt that breach of contract?

If you can show me anywhere where you signed a contract stating that you must recieve the benefits of the PEP program I will publicly whip myself until you grant me approval to stop!

What about the guys who were hired on the understanding that if they did 20 years they would be eligable for a full pension but now they have been told they have to do 25 years? One of my friends who did move on after his first BE has brought this to his Member of Parliment and also ( i believe) to the Ombudsman but with no result yet.

Well this is a separate issue from educational reimbursement.  According to my pension chart, a member who completes his 20 year IE would still be entitled to an unreduced annuity.

 

[chikn suckr]

Gunner,
Who says that I have not taken part in the program over the duration of my contract? I don't believe I said that. However, I have not come close to earning a degree, as I was actually working during my time. I do believe your facts are a bit scewed. No, I am not entitled to any reimbursement under the new program, as I have less than ten years in, and after 10 years, if the CANFORGEN is to be believed, I may receive a max. of 5000. Unfortunately for some of us, we do not feel the need to enroll for life within the CF. This does not change the fact that our contracts seem to be altered to the benefit of the CF while we serve. I do not believe that it is stated anywhere in our contract that we specifically will receive PEP benefits, or medical benefits, or dental, etc, etc....Should this mean any of the these may also get reduced or altered to reduce our benefit from them? If so we should all be quite aware, and as it is, we are not. You have my permission to flog yourself anyway, if you haven't already done so.

 

[Gunner]

, if the CANFORGEN is to be believed, I may receive a max. of 5000.

What's not to believe?  Have you spoken to your base PSO about your situation and what your are entitled to?

Unfortunately for some of us, we do not feel the need to enroll for life within the CF.

Why do you feel the need therefore, for the CF to pay for your enhancement if you are not going to be part of the CF?

This does not change the fact that our contracts seem to be altered to the benefit of the CF while we serve. I do not believe that it is stated anywhere in our contract that we specifically will receive PEP benefits, or medical benefits, or dental, etc, etc....Should this mean any of the these may also get reduced or altered to reduce our benefit from them?

Good Christ man, PEP was an interium program just as many other programs have been over the years.  Your medical and dental benefits change all the time, usually for the better, are you going to complain that they didn't consult you on each change?  I can't believe the amount of complaining I am hearing.

 

[chikn suckr]

OK Gunner,
It seems as if you are really just here to wind me up. All your statements and accusations have been already discussed in my original post. How many times should I repeat myself trying to make you understand? You seem to want to make some other point here as your posts have become fairly redundant. It is clear that you will accept any change of policy with open arms and never argue, but you will argue with any dissent within the ranks, and label it 'complaining' if someone wishes to gather some usefull feedback. If your comments were useful, and they are not, I would welcome them. I apparently must state my post over and over so you can get the last word here. Feel free to keep it up, as I'm sure you will. Good luck with your education.

 

[Gunner]

chikn suckr,

You are free to disagree with me and you are free to not read or interpret what I post and the links I provide to the DND policy on educational reimbursment.  My main problem with you is your whining about how unfairly you are being treated and that it is some mysterious conspiracy to "screw over the troops".  I my opinion, that's not the case.  For whatever reason we forget the CF is an employer and its purpose is to maximize the return it receives from its employees to make it more efficient.  It is not a benefits trough that so many of expect it to be.

So you have two choices. Suck it up or send in your redress about a change in policy..

Cheers

 

[chikn suckr]

For the other members that may actually be concerned about this topic and not my pouty verbiage, here is some info I have gathered. I have indeed questioned PSO about the issue of this being a somewhat sketchy if not altogether illegal policy change, as it concerns what you can call a verbal contract, if you have discussed education reimbursement with recruiting prior to enrollment, and have used that to actually help convince you to sign on, as in my case. The advice given to all others who are affected, and myself, is that this may constitute a change of policy if made available to the Ombudsman, and/or (as he is in the middle of a change of office at the moment and may be a bit busy) our Members of Parliament. My advice and the PSO's to anyone concerned as I am with this problem, is take the time to write to either or both, as it will be your only chance at changing the current adjustments. If we can get a return on this from all members concerned we should get a reaction. I, for one, will start now.
Thank you, Gunner for stating your intelligent opinion over and over. Yep, I must be a whiner, thanks. You can stop now! Musta been da Mo-litia comment... Suck it up! Your attitude that nothing can be wrong with the system!! is a great asset towards the degradation of the Forces. IMAO

Cheers

 

[KevinB]

chikn suckr - suck it up I doubt any of us joined for the education benefits.
So the policy changed  :crybaby: Thats life - Yeah it sucks -so wear a helmet.

 

[Gunner]

chikn suckr,

All rhetoric aside, I don't think the PSO has given you very good advice.  I suggest you start with a grievance and find the CF's take on why the change in reimbursement was done and argue how it has affected you.  The Ombudsman and Member of Parliament will just refer the matter back to you in order to take advantage of administrative system built into the CF. 

PS - You may want to fill out your profile if you want to be taken seriously as a poster.  I've done my time, have you?

 

[chikn suckr]

Yeah Gunner, thats what I said too. The good Major still insisted that it would be the best route. Have I put my time in? Whether or not I fill out my profile doesn't really concern me, if you wish to take me seriously doesn't either. I am only posting this to get some feedback and possibly give a heads up to the people that might be concerned with this topic, as most members that have attended a recent SCAN seminar were, and possibly help us all out, if possible.
KevinB, thats for repeating the sentiment, and for showing your level of intelligence, buds. Something tells me 'doubt' and 'know' are fairly interchangeable for you. Education was probably not in the cards for you either way. :-*

 

[Gunner]

KevinB, thats for repeating the sentiment, and for showing your level of intelligence, buds. Something tells me 'doubt' and 'know' are fairly interchangeable for you. Education was probably not in the cards for you either way.

chikn suckr - PM inbound.

 

[GO!!!]

As far as I'm concerned, the educational benefits have changed for the better!

Under the previous program, only 80% of my tuition and books were refunded, now, with the completion and approval of my ILP, it's up to 100%! HA!

In addition to this, you can deduct 50% of tuition from income tax!

SO, the army pays for my school, gives me time off to write exams, a free laptop when I'm on the road, and I make more money come tax time.

I can't think of another organisation that covers all of your school costs so you can get out and get another job - So sum up - there's not much to whine about.

 

[chikn suckr]

Good Grief! Anyone else out there that would like to keep calling me a whiner please feel free to write! I'm a WHINER :crybaby: Ok!
Now back to topic, sorry GO!! but stop, some of your info is actually wrong, and the laptop is no longer covered, sorry. Again this is dealing with the topic for reimbursement of members that are LEAVING the forces, so please read the actual thread before you say sum up. I agree though, it remains a good deal if your unit can give you time off to get an education and you are a recipient during employment with the forces. This is all upon approval of your ILP and really check into the accreditation of the school as you will be left holding the bill if it comes back that it aint recognised by the Military. Again, fair enough, you are right as it deals with your situation.
Oops I seem to have crossed the line drawn in front of KevinB, an apology is due to the forum from myself. Excuse me, getting tired of the focus on me and not the actual subject! I should have known what this would start with people that are used to giving orders that coincide with their own views. Not only am I a whiner but a stupid one! ;D  However, I will keep up with the outcome of it all and hopefully help some of you that may feel entitled to the reimbursement as it was stated at the beginning of their contract. Another point, the ombudsman has its own website, and so does your MP, both with either a complaint form or an email address... so we can all whine to people other than in this forum. I, for one hope that they may not be as antagonistic as in here.

 

[Chilly]

chikn suckr

So the policy has changed and in your case it isn't for the better---but why do you feel as though, the military or even the government is responsible to give you $20,000.00 [/color] for education.  I'm sure there are other businesses that reimburse it's employees money for educational up grades, but how is your educational upgrade going to benefit the Forces.  I just don't see what you have to complain about - the policy CHANGED and that's it.  If you want the Gov't/ Forces to pay for an education for you then stick around and make a career in the Forces. Then you can take advantage of the different programs that are out there in the Forces.  If not then move on and get your education the most do on their own.

"Education was probably not in the cards for you either way."

If education was in the cards for you then you would not need the Gov't/Forces to pay for it, you would have received scholarships and burseries.

 

[George Wallace]

OK Guys

I have to side with chikn suckr here.  I just finished 28 years.  No options of staying in after completing my CE, even when requested by my Regt so that I could go on this ROTO to Afghanistan.  Career Shop said no.  My last SCAN Seminar in Oct laid out the rules for Education Reimbursement and that totaled over $20 K in my case if claimed within the 2 years from my Release.  I finished my Leave at the end of March and find out that I am now entitle to $ 0, yet am told that a Reservist can now collect $ 5 K.  Kind of a Piss Off, after all those years of Service (Think now of the US Mil Education Benifits Plans) to find that the rug has been pulled out from under me and some kid can join the Reserves tomorrow and apply for $ 5 K almost immediately.  Tell me where the Justice is there.

I also understand that the Rules have also been drastically changed for those still Serving, as to what type of Courses will be credited.  Most of the info has been posted in this discussion already.

And I am sorry Chilly, but  in many cases staying around in the Military is not an option for those of us who have already done our "Long" time already.  You can't remain a kid that long.  After 20 odd years you are no longer 18 anymore, if you catch my drift.

These "Changes" are a very sore point to many who have had the rug pulled out from under them in the last four months.  Bitching and Whining are to be expected.  Wait your turn, youngster, your day will come and you too will whine and complain when some benefit or entitlement is withdrawn from you at the last minute. 

Joining the Reserves until CRA is one option open to Retired CF Members who wish to get at least some compensation.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

George,
What about redressing the fact that when a change like that is made, it should be "grandfathered" or "tapered" over 5 years, etc. so that it isn't discriminatory[which by the way you would have a case with the human rights board] to someone in your situation.
Bruce

 

[2 Cdo]

Funny how somebody asks a question for info about a subject and the comments begin. Telling a person to suck it up or say he is whining seems to be the norm lately on this forum. If a question is asked and you don't have any pertinent info then try to refrain from the smart-ass comments, it just reveals what an ass you are. And it should be noted that it should apply to all pers on this site, posters and moderators alike!

 

[KevinB]

Chikn,

Look it got screwed just as you - I recently took a $2900 course and got told to go piss up a rope. Worse it was specifically relevant to the job I do [and have done overseas].  I got out of the regs for four years to go to University on my OWN dime.  When I got back in I figured I'd try to use the system to benifit myself and the CF and do a bunch of training.  Some training (2002-2003) I got funded but recently the reversal has forced me to be out of pocket for such things.


My understandig of the policy, is that it was not a legally approved system anyway, and the CF was FORCED to change it by the treasury board.  I really don't understand why the Treasury Board administrates things like this but what I do know if thatit was beyond the scope of the CF - so being angry at the system is not the answer.  The only way I see it changing if is someone can PROVE to the TB that the Army is different and thus needs its own special system to deliniate course and funding.

My point and a similar vien to my comments on equipment etc. is you have to work within the system (I know a LOT of people are laughing right now) and externally to produce change.  I dont know if you can intiate a UCR on the Education Benifit/System but if you feel so agreived try it.

I just decided that I will fund my own stuff, and perhaps it make me even more of a white knight crusader 


Cheers

 

[GO!!!]

sukr - I'm pretty sure that the laptop is covered, because I'm typing on it right now. An e - mail confirmed this with the LCC. And the rest of my info is correct, I had it faxed over just to make sure.

Not sure about your individual circumstances, but all of my education reimbursements over the last few years was based on the premise that it was a trial program that had run for a really long time.

I never saw it written anywhere, in all my searching of the educational benefits that one was entitled to 1K a year, yet so many people seem to talk about it. I also have never met any retired pers that used that plan. Just my 2 cents.

So, I would file a grievance if I were you, or take it up with the Ombudsman. At least there you will get a straight answer.

 

[chikn suckr]

GO!!!
[Under the previous program, only 80% of my tuition and books were refunded, now, with the completion and approval of my ILP, it's up to 100%! HA!

In addition to this, you can deduct 50% of tuition from income tax!

SO, the army pays for my school, gives me time off to write exams, a free laptop when I'm on the road, and I make more money come tax time.]

So I get from this that you can deduct 50% of tuition that you dont even pay for. Silly me I thought this would be wrong but if it is true, well I cant argue that it isnt the greatest thing since sliced bread. Just going by what the PSO has stated the laptop wasn't covered, maybe the LCC covered it? I will try to check that out. I think if I could find my way into your shoes I would never leave the Forces.

Chilly
If I found my way to where I am today with scholarships and/or bursaries, I would kick my own a**! But rest assured, even if I do have to rely on my own funding, I will have an education in my cards, and thanks for your concern.

George
I dont know if you are on retirement leave at this time or not, but if you are so inclined to take advantage of the Ombudsman, please do so. There will be a small flood of paperwork heading his way concerning this subject from my regiment and the more the merrier. As for Bruce ,I think he may be on the right track, though I think is it has to do with Contract and Breach of Contract?

Question: Has anyone else heard of two Warrants from Gagetown who stopped coming to work over this subject? Their claim being that if the Military could change their contract, so could they.

I myself am only waiting to hear a reply from my submission last week, I will keep this updated as to the outcome. If there is no answer soon, I will be contacting my MP. The way I see it around here there are yes-men and those that might rock the boat. If I choose to rock the boat once in a while its only to find out where the leaks are coming from to keep it from sinking, while being in a boat with a lot of (sea)yes-men can really suck, if more of us used some guts to open our mouths once in while concerning some problems it may make a difference. I do not mean we should all start to whine about everything! The Military screws us all, suck it up, carry on, stop whining, and grab a helmet should not always apply to absolutely everything. If we can use our heads to understand something when it cant be fathomed or question things that might seem unlawful and make use of the processes available, we can actually help ourselves quite a bit, but it takes more than just a couple of us.

Thank you to those of you who support an open forum, I was beginning to wonder what could possibly be worse, my whining or all the whining concerning my whining. :'(But please dont think that I am whining about your whining about my whining!
Rodger so far? over.

 

[Gunner]

Question: Has anyone else heard of two Warrants from Gagetown who stopped coming to work over this subject? Their claim being that if the Military could change their contract, so could they.

I suspect this can be considered an "military myth".  Let me be absolutely clear that no ones terms of service has been or can be changed without their permission.  Everyone should have been briefed on the different terms of service by their units.  There are changes that effect the younger members who have not signed IE, with the biggest being you will have to work until you have 25 years of service, vice only 20.  If you have questions on the changes in terms of service, I suggest you contact your unit OR, garrison OR or your chain of command.  The changes provide considerable benefit and flexibility for every member. 

Education reimbursement is not part of your contract when you sign with the military.  As I mentioned, the loss of the PEP reimbursement (up to 1,000 per year of service) hurt those of us with long service but the new plans (see link above) provide a comprehensive plan for the CF.  If you have questions about education reimbursement and how you fit into the new plan, I encourage you to consult with your base PSO.

Cheers,