Ottawa seeking ‘impartial’ board members to review military colleges

[SupersonicMax]

I did SLT in 1989 and 2005. You can take that for what it is worth, I don't particularly care whether you value my opinion.

Language/culture survive through utility and adaptability, not some saccharine-fed federal mandated program. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, the fifth wheel kvetches.

SLT is about teaching you a second language. It’s not a trade course in your second language. It’s not about preserving culture. It’s about providing a fair shot for all.

Think back at your LogO training and imagine doing it all in French with no option to have the instruction in English. How would you feel about that?

 

[dapaterson]

SLT is about teaching you a second language. It’s not a trade course in your second language. It’s not about preserving culture. It’s about providing a fair shot for all.

Think back at your LogO training and imagine doing it all in French with no option to have the instruction in English. How would you feel about that?

As a student, I was once the "bilingual assist" on a course for a unilingual francophone, despite having no language profile...

 

[Navy_Pete]

My only real complain is that we don't make it easier for people to actually practice/maintain the SLT when it isn't the local language, and also that there aren't more language options in schools to learn third or fourth languages. Globalization just makes learning extra languages make even more sense, and it's a lot easier to do when you are younger when your brain is a sponge.

I don't understand why people only want to stick with being unilingual, it's really limiting if you travel or even working in fields where you collaborate with others from different countries.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Funny, the lingua franca with every major international partner we work with is English.

If some Latvian G2 can have a working use of English alongside the Danish G3 and Italian G4, forgive me my eye roll when we have members disadvantaged by not being able to work in their FOL.

It will be fun when the ITAR documentation for NATO specific platforms are not able to be sent for translation. Hard to train a pilot on the F-35 in French when they point out the Polish did so in English without needing to have the material sent for translation first.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Even where a region is not bilingual, you can still have francophone subordinates. That’s the nature of the military. It behoves to leaders to cater to their subordinates official language, not the opposite.

Leaders who refuse to learn their second official language to enable then to conduct basic leadership tasks demonstrate aspects of laziness and self-centering.

Why would it be for francophones to adapt, instead of the institution? Why is the responsibility to learn a new language on the shoulders a new pilot because the institution is incapable of providing training in their FOL? There an element of fairness and equality/equity that cannot be ignored. I would challenge any person whose first language is English to undertake their trades training in French and see where it goes. I bet you the majority would be up in arms.

If its as important as you claim then we should actually make it a mandatory requirement for the whole of the CAF and teach it from cradle to grave for everyone's career. Like a fitness test or the range. But we wont do that will we ? Because that would take a ridiculous amount of time and resources. Add in that Francos have a distinct advantage living in a world where English is the language of everything, regardless of what Quebec wants to believe.

You're a pilot, what's the international language for flight ? Don't answer its Aviation English. The international language of the sea is, Seaspeak or Maritime English.

I just finished the year long French course, I wish I had done it earlier. But its damn near impossible to get on, in my trade, unless one is succession managed and/or a CPO2 or up.

To provide my own counter NATO's two official languages are French and English.

 

[QV]

This is precisely how we got the the state the CAF is: cater to white, English males…. Ultimately is creates an Echo chamber and things spiral pit of control.

I knew that was coming.

 

[Remius]

1. We are country with two official languages. This brings advantages but also complications.

2. If we accept that, then training, supervison and language of work are all things we need to tackle and address with an OL policy.

3. Our current OL policy in government needs modernizing and needs a serious overhaul that better reflects reality. That will probably require more money and probably some unpopular decisions.

 

[dapaterson]

A quarter of Canada's population has French as their first official language. No sane employer would toss out a quarter of the population from hiring considerations.

Hard sea trades (those managed by the RCN) are all in the range of 10-15% French first language. If the RCN attracted and retained Francophones proportional to their representation in Canada's population, the RCN's hard sea trades would be at our about PML.

There has never been a Francophone CRCN...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Perhaps. But that’s true in many trades. And sometimes, even when a course is « bilingual », it isn’t really. That’s really easy for you to say what you’re saying as an anglophone who likely never had to take career course in a language that is not native to you, not by choice but by obligation. The day you’ll have lived through this, I’ll value your opinion on this.

I speak French and English, did my phase training in French (As one of the few Anglophones that spoke French, I was voluntold to do it). I grew up in Northern NB and lived in a bilingual community and was a minority re: first language my whole life.

IMO, I don't think second language should count for anything related to merit or is even important to what we do. If you want to speak and work in French, go to a French Unit, it's that simple.

Reading material should be made available in either language but otherwise if a Unit is overwhelmingly English or French it will operate in that language. As for a common operating language, it will be English and there is no reason for it not to be.

Forcing a language on someone is exactly what they tried to do to the French population in New Brunswick before LJRs policy of equal opportunity and is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. It's unnatural and doesn't actually make sense.

I find it ironic that NB is the only bilingual Province in Canada and is also the least dogmatic when it comes to "thow shall all speak language X". Services are made available to anyone who needs it but nobody is telling anyone they need to speak language X or else "consequences".

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

A quarter of Canada's population has French as their first official language. No sane employer would toss out a quarter of the population from hiring considerations.

Hard sea trades (those managed by the RCN) are all in the range of 10-15% French first language. If the RCN attracted and retained Francophones proportional to their representation in Canada's population, the RCN's hard sea trades would be at our about PML.

There has never been a Francophone CRCN...

The overwhelming majority of communities with actual mariners and areas with a seafaring tradition in NB, Quebec and even large parts of NS are French speaking.

They don't even have a single Naval Reserve Unit in any of them. The Seafarers Union in Montreal is a huge employer and many actual Canadian Maritime Shipping companies are HQed in Montreal. The French are very important to everyone in the Maritime Industry, everyone except the Navy it seems.

 

[quadrapiper]

I’m of the opinion that Military Colleges (if they are going to be a 4 year Bachelors offering entity) that they should offer specific Military oriented education.
Thus for the Bachelor’s side - I would favor a mixed education of STEM and Social Sciences. Award a BSc in Military Science.
The goal of a Military College should be to produce a well rounded junior officer- not set them up for a job post Military.

Which, coupled with a few years' creditable service with the Colours, wouldn't be a terrible jumping off point for now-Capt or Maj Retd Bloggins.

They don't even have a single Naval Reserve Unit in any of them. The Seafarers Union in Montreal is a huge employer and many actual Canadian Maritime Shipping companies are HQed in Montreal. The French are very important to everyone in the Maritime Industry, everyone except the Navy it seems.

Given the NRDs were at least in part sited to capture the attention of populations who weren't either joining the RCN or already engaged in maritime activity, that's not a huge surprise.

Since we're not, now, worried about stripping hands from the massive and war-vital Canadian Merchant Marine, that should likely be revisited.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

IMO, I don't think second language should count for anything related to merit or is even important to what we do. If you want to speak and work in French, go to a French Unit, it's that simple.

Agreed. We have members across the CAF that can speak Russian, Ukranian, Mandarin, Hindi, Urdu, Pashto, Italian, Spanish.... all of which have identifiable operational advantages; who see no benefit in employment or advancement.

Additionally, having worked both with Francophone soldiers and taken SOLET training, the disparity between the language I would need to speak with a Québécois soldier and the language I was trained and assessed in is stark. One of my soldiers told me that the level of French they assess for BBB is higher than he learned in CEGEP.

It's no longer a functional advantage, but a goalposts that keeps moving.

Reading material should be made available in either language but otherwise if a Unit is overwhelmingly English or French it will operate in that language. As for a common operating language, it will be English and there is no reason for it not to be.

Wholly agreed.

Forcing a language on someone is exactly what they tried to do to the French population in New Brunswick before LJRs policy of equal opportunity and is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. It's unnatural and doesn't actually make sense.

Except when it's 1985, you've lost major concessions in drafting the Constitution, and you've had an axe to grind with English Canada since 1763....

I find it ironic that NB is the only bilingual Province in Canada and is also the least dogmatic when it comes to "thow shall all speak language X". Services are made available to anyone who needs it but nobody is telling anyone they need to speak language X or else "consequences".

The majority of New Bruinswickers I have served with simply don't care which language you use with them. They have a very concrete grasp of both English and French. They are also very adept to knowing where they are in the world and adapting to suit.

Meanwhile, I'm reminded of a non-Montreal Québécois I had to collar and tell them to Fermez-toi after they made an absolute ass of themselves to our German hosts for refusing to speak either English or German at the gate in Bonn. "My FOL is French..." not when the Feldjager Corporal holding an H&K and his nice doggy seem to feel otherwise....

 

[SupersonicMax]

There is a massive difference between primary training, administering and operating, and we need to deal with each differently. Do we need to be operating in English? 100% yes. Do we have to provide administration and primary training in both official languages? Absolutely. We owe that to our people for a plethora of reasons. In pilot’s terms, up to Wings standards should be in either official language. Past that, 100% English.

I have been flying for a long time. I have flown the Mirage 2000D and N in France and guess what was the language of instruction, and the language in which we flew? French. That was also true for my American counterpart.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The CAF as an organization is obsessed with credentialism.

I say that as someone who used to be in the CAF and now works in an industry where even some of the most Senior Leadership of the Company doesn't have a University Degree.

They did all their learning on the ground and accumulated experience.


I think education is important but that education needs to be tailored to the job at hand.

The entire purpose of a Military College should be to school its Officers in the Art of War and the Officers should all receive a broad-based education in Military Tactics, War Theory, History, etc.


Correct. MBAs are very popular in Government, Finance, Consulting, etc. They are not that prevalent in a lot of other Industries.

What I've found in my new industry is a lot of the "supporting cast" if you will, are the ones with the advanced degrees. The actual operations personnel though, and we are the ones who run the business and make the decisions (we also get paid the most). We receive our education on the ground. We go out, make things happen, and are rewarded with more challenging tasks to complete and promotions if we achieve our objectives.

There is value in education and I am convinced there is value in receiving a Military Education. I am wholely unconvinced the CAF wouldn't be better off creating their own education curriculum and awarding people who go through the program a "bachelor of military arts and sciences" in lieu of having them waste four years of their life studying "basket weaving"

The CAF does the opposite of what it should do. It offloads actual PD for its Officers and Senior NCOs until they are 15-20 years in to their career. Much too late and they miss the opportunity to saturate the mind at a young age.

MBAs target a very specific subsection of the private sector. Namely consulting and the financial industry. That so many Military Officers gravitate to that path post CAF says more about them and what they're comfortable with than it does about the actual value of an MBA itself.

I am personally interested in doing an MBA because I have an interest in it, and also for networking reasons , not because it matters in my current occupation.

I run a very successful consulting company. I was in business for 10 Years before upgrading to a Masters degree.

Did it help? Yes.

Would we have continued to be successful if I only had my BA in History (which has little direct relation to my type of consulting) to lean on?

Also yes.

 

[Good2Golf]

If I had a nickel for every Officer that pensioned out of the CAF and tried to become a "leadership coach" I'd be a rich man .

That is seriously one of the greatest thefts of oxygen in the careersphere (especially LinkedIn)!

Why would it be for francophones to adapt, instead of the institution? Why is the responsibility to learn a new language on the shoulders a new pilot because the institution is incapable of providing training in their FOL? There an element of fairness and equality/equity that cannot be ignored. I would challenge any person whose first language is English to undertake their trades training in French and see where it goes. I bet you the majority would be up in arms.

Remind me again what the official language used at CDG is?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Remind me again what the official language used at CDG is?

Operating vs administering vs training. Three different things that need to be treated differently with regards to Official Languages. Yes, in Aviation, speaking English on the radio is essential. That’s operating. However, you don’t need to be taught how to start an aircraft up and takeoff in English, yet, that’s what we do, to the detriment of francophone student pilots. Being taught in a second official language that you don’t master brings an extra element of complexity that is non-negligible.

I sure hope, as a CO, you were able to give admin measures to your folks in their FOL and not necessarily yours.

 

[FSTO]

I've said this before, but if we were serious back in the 90's about second language training the CAF would have sent us to Lac St Jean vice CFB St Jean for 6 months to live with a family and not seeing another anglo for the same amount of time. Learn or starve. And you'd be able to communicate with actual french speaking Canadians in the CAF and elsewhere.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I've said this before, but if we were serious back in the 90's about second language training the CAF would have sent us to Lac St Jean vice CFB St Jean for 6 months to live with a family and not seeing another anglo for the same amount of time. Learn or starve. And you'd be able to communicate with actual french speaking Canadians in the CAF and elsewhere.

Not gonna lie: the two worst french teachers I ever had were in the Mega. Literally did not give a crap whether we learned or not; actively disdained anglophones and watched the clock scrupulously.

That, and the curriculum at the time had nothing to do with military life.

Pretty hard, as a young officer, to conclude the CAF gave much of a crap about bilingualism when they did that.

Later, when I did the year long course, the teachers and curriculum were both much better, but everyone was open about the fact that anglos had a much harder road to do well on the oral exam than the francophones did.

I don’t get the sense that much has changed on the testing.

 

[Furniture]

Not gonna lie: the two worst french teachers I ever had were in the Mega. Literally did not give a crap whether we learned or not; actively disdained anglophones and watched the clock scrupulously.

That, and the curriculum at the time had nothing to do with military life.

Pretty hard, as a young officer, to conclude the CAF gave much of a crap about bilingualism when they did that.

Later, when I did the year long course, the teachers and curriculum were both much better, but everyone was open about the fact that anglos had a much harder road to do well on the oral exam than the francophones did.

I don’t get the sense that much has changed on the testing.

Maybe the CAF could shutter RMC and use the space to get serious about second language training.

 

[FSTO]

Not gonna lie: the two worst french teachers I ever had were in the Mega. Literally did not give a crap whether we learned or not; actively disdained anglophones and watched the clock scrupulously.

Remi Steeves, a hard core sepratists was my teacher. Coupled that I was a red-neck western Canadian farm boy who had no qualms telling him his cause was full of shit did not make for an advantageous learning experience. Thankfully the Navy yanked us out there about a month and half early to get us to Venture and on to our careers. Some folks got tested, I was not one of them. In fact I have never had a french test.