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On Killing

Or he failed to fire once, then realized he was stuck - he couldn't be seen to not be following the firing drill as the soldiers around him repeated it, but couldn't fire, either, in case he blew up the barrel with the multiple cartridges. So he didn't have an option other than to fake his way through the drill, over and over, and hope nobody noticed.
 
...anyways, I think it is clear that there are numerous explanations for reloaded rifles in combat that wouldn't fit into the category of "natural aversion to killing"....
 
The answer to what will either lead a man kill or not to kill will often depend on the background of the person giving the answer.  Psychologist, sociologists and political scientists will tend to give different answers based on their point of view (the influence of the individual, society or power).

I came across several first hand accounts of of fighting during the First World War as part of a a paper for a course some years back that reveal the complexity of the issue.  In one instance, a British officer is at an OP making a sketch of the German positions.  He can observe a German soldier carrying out personnal hygiene and points him out to the sentry.  The sentry remarks that he had been watching him but had not shot.  It could be argued that the soldier had not shot out of keeping him position secure, but the answen given by the sentry was that the enemy was "just a lousy German."  By lousy he meant that the German was lice infested and was going through the routine of killing the little critters.  He was not a threat and he was also identifiable as a fellow soldier living in terrible conditions.  Would we make the same decision today?

I came across some other accounts of British soldiers killing Germans with spades during trench fighting including some who were trying to surrender.  This tells me that the circumstances of the situation have a lot to do with the decison to kill or not kill (no great discovery but worth pointing out).  Did operant conditioning lead the soldiers to kill enemy soldiers or was something else at work? 

Both situations above show radically different behaviours by soldiers who came from the same society and training system (a sweeping generalization perhaps).  Neither outcome seemed to depend on authority.  Distance seemed to have an inverse effect from the one often given that increased range from the opponent will increase the likelihood of "killing."  The threat posed by the enemy is perhaps a factor, although I need to be careful here.  In the first case the German soldier poses no threat to the sentry.  The Germans killed trying to surrender in the trench did not pose a threat either, although there are cases of people trying to surrender turning on their captors.  What is significant, though, is that these killings happened during a hand to hand melee.  The attackers had little choice but to kill once they entered the trench system and encountered resistance.  Once they started killing or being killed it was hard to automatically turn this off (which might explain the slaughters during routs throughout history).

Trying to explain behaviour as either "natural" or "societal" can lead to some long but often fruitless nature vs nurture debates.  I think that it is very hard to determine what natural behaviour is since we are social beings.  Perhaps Infanteer is on to something as "society" definately does not want people killing each other but an individual can certainly benefit (sometimes simply by surviving).  Society and authority can have an influence one way or another.  Societal influence will tend to reduce the probability of killing (but that may be changing).  Training, group pressures and authority can increase or decrease the probability, but I think that ultimately the situation will dictate.  I think that the issue will defy neat solutions.

Cheers,

2B
 
Regarding the risks inherent in attempting to surrender during battle, I believe (no evidence, just a belief) that once the killing switch in the mind is turned "on" it is difficult to turn "off" as long as the mind is preoccupied with the emotions of close combat.
 
I've read On Killing a couple of times and just finished On Combat.  I'm a big fan.  On Combat expands upon many of the theories presented in On Killing and actually includes much practical advice.  It is perhaps the best book I've read regarding the nuts and bolts of our profession.  I've had our QM order a bunch of copies and I'm making it professional development reading for all officers and NCOs in 3 PPCLI. 

For those of you in Edmonton, I've got Grossman coming to speak at the PPCLI Leadership Symposium on 14 Mar 05.  I've heard him talk before and it was brilliant.  We may have a small number of seats available, so if you are interested contact 3 PPCLI.

As an aside, Grossman has also delved into science fiction.  His book, The Two Space War, applies many of his theories to a fictional setting 600 years in the future.
 
Just got my copy today along with "About Face" to keep me busy for a while this summer, looking forward to reading it and hoping I'll be able to take this thread a bit further.
 
I've read On Combat and am about half way through On Killing.  I find both books very interesting.  He makes some great points about training troops.  I also found his information on the physiology during heated combat fascinating.  No one talks about what to expect from your own body.  I was lucky enough to hear him speak here in Windsor a few weeks ago.  Very intense fellow.  I would highly reccommend attending his Bulletproof Mind seminars.
 
Interesting article in Parameters.

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/03autumn/chambers.pdf

Grossman basically states that although S.L.A. Marshall's research was fabricated, he was correct regarding non-firers.   This article seems to point to the fact (using first hand accounts) that Marshall was quite wrong.

Although I to am a fan of Grossman (modified with some Ghiglieri), I'm not to sure I buy the "non-firer" theory completely.
 
Started ON KILLING a week ago...unfortunately for me I have two other books on the go at the same time so my thoughts may not get post until MUCH later! LOL

I started reading it as research material for my MSW thesis. So far it is very interesting. I appreciate everyones comments b/c I always analysis books critically. I'm never a 'best book for the truth" type reader.
 
It's been awhile since I've read the book, but what I found most interesting were the alternatives to "fight or flight" that were presented: fight, flight, sumbit or posture. It really adds a whole new level of depth into the equation. Although, after reading it, and coming across my the "flight or fight" concept in my intro to psych class, I must admit that I was tempted to refer my professor to this book.
 
Just finished On Combat.  I like how it expands on the theories presented in On Killing, but is written in a "self help" style.

Lt Col Grossman will be speaking to the 2nd Battalion on 9 Dec.  I'm looking quite forward to it.
 
Almost finished "On Combat" and I can't wait to read "On Killing" to know what he is making reference too.

Understanding "normal" physical and phsycological reactions to situations and how to involve your spouse into understanding of what your going through is a great asset.

Thought I'd resurface this thread since there is allot of good information in this book that might help someone sooner than later.

I've heard his Seminars are very good as well.  a must attend if you can.
 
Ayone got copies of either they wanted to sell?  They aren't the easiest books to get a hold of through Canadian channels.  Specifically "On Killing".
 
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/35/search?sc=On+Killing%7cGrossman&sf=BookName%7cAuthor
 
Kyle Burrows said:
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/35/search?sc=On+Killing%7cGrossman&sf=BookName%7cAuthor
Excellent.  Thank you.  i could have sworn thta I've checked chapters.

Now to find a copy of "On Combat".
 
I got both books off ebay direct from the authors, and personally inscribed.

Ordered them when I was in Iraq through the APO, so shipping was cheap. Money well spent!

The books are great, and answered a lot of questions for me about my own behaviour and emotions during battle.

I would recommend these books to anyone who is going over.

I am sure these books are openly available in decent bookstores above the 49th. There is nothing considered offensive or otherwise in them.

Regards,

Wes
 
Wesley  Down Under said:
I am sure these books are openly available in decent bookstores above the 49th. There is nothing considered offensive or otherwise in them.
Absolutely, it wouldn't have anything to do with the subject, but the book's relative obscurity means I haven't seen at most popular book outlets and isn't as easily attainable online (amazon, chapters) as some more popular books might be.
 
Wesley  Down Under said:
Mate give ebay go.

Cheers
Wes
Yeah, I used to be an avid eBayer, but havn't used it in a few years.  May give it a go again.  I remember back then when we were getting like 60 odd US cents to our dollar and things were still a deal.  now that were almost at par, there must be a ton of deals.
 
the bookstore in the Oromocto Mall carries his books........that's where I got my copies.
 
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