Okay, whats next- after ACS

[Bograt]

Hello everyone,

I just returned from Trenton (ACS) this past August 9-13. I am very happy to say I met the standards for pilot and have been checked out as good to go by the folks in Toronto. I will be signing up as a DEO. I was told by a highly place source that the next selection board is in November, with candidates scheduled to go to the January BOTC in PQ. I guess I need to wait a couple of weeks to get the official word from the recruitment office. I have a couple of questions I hope some of you may be able to answer.

1. How soon could I expect to get an offer and sign the papers? I am currently working now and would like to give my current employer the heads up.

2. When you sign the papers are you immidiately an officer cadet and hence on the payroll?

3. When you are waiting for BOTC, as an Officer Cadet what do you do? (Silly question I know...)

4. I heard rumours that French training for pilots can be put off for a while because of shortages- is this correct?

5. What is BOTC like? What can I do to prepare (i.e. fitness, studying, etc...)

6. I am changing careers rather late in life (I am now 31 and with a young family), any advice?

Thanks,

 

[Born2Fly]

First of all, I may be joining you on that January BOTC as a Pilot. So we may end up spending a lot of time together.   ;D


1. Your medical still has to be signed off, make its way to the selection boards, and all paperwork has to make its way back to your recruiting center, finalize everything, and then they can give you the official offer. So obviously you can expect an offer sometime after November.

2. Once you get "sworn in" (small ceremony asking you to swear an oath of allegiance), you are technically on the CF's payroll. However, it is very common to put you on LWOP (Leave WithOut Pay) until about 2 days before your course starts. They generally swear you in 1 or 2 weeks before your course starts.

3. As I mentioned above, when you're waiting around to attend your BOTC, I would just finalize everything. Keep your fitness routine up, make sure you know what you're bringing with you, etc. etc. Just general administrative stuff.

4. As for the french, I can't give you any kind of educated guess on that. I have heard of some officers skipping French, others having to take it. It really is up to the "powers that be" above us. If you figure a January BOTC, that means an April graduation. Second Language training takes about 7-8 months. So it really depends on when Basic Flying Training starts, and how desperate they are to push us through.

5. There's a website at the CFLRS website that breaks down week-by-week at what BOTC is. I went through Basic Recruit Training (for enlisted personnel) back in 1996, and it was hell on earth. We graduated with 37, from an original class of 61. And we even picked up a few recruits along the way from previous courses... So its more like 33 of 61. BOTC is a little different, as they expect you to become leaders. Theres lots of info from the recruiting website about it.

6. The CF does what it can to accomodate families, but they won't be able to join you for BOTC. Depending on what happens after that, and where you go, the CF should pay to move you and your dependents to where you get posted. Your recruiter can tell you more about that.


Hope this helps, and if you need any more info, feel free to ask.   Hopefully I'll see you in January.

 

[Inch]

Well all of the questions were pretty much answered. You'll be on leave without pay until the day you get on the plane/bus to BOTC, then you're paid. I'm not exactly sure how the DEO thing works, either you'll be paid as an OCdt until you finish BOTC and then retro paid as a 2Lt or you'll be paid as a 2Lt from the get go. Once you're done BOTC and maybe french, you'll get a temporary duty or attach posting (depending on how much TD money your unit has got, but most likely an attach posting) to Portage la Prairie for Primary Flying Training.  Then you'll be posted to 2CFFTS (2 Canadian Forces Flying Training School), when you get posted to Moose Jaw they should give you a move, you can get a PMQ there while you're on course. Good luck and have fun.

Cheers

 

[Born2Fly]

Inch - Did you want choppers, or did the CF pretty much tell you that's where you were going?

I have heard to expect choppers, and if I get selected for multi-engine or jets, then that's just a bonus.

I only ask because I'm not too fond of choppers, but I'm sure you will educate me otherwise.   8)

 

[Inch]

I joined wanting jets, towards the end of Moose Jaw I changed my mind and asked for helo.  I'm glad I did, I love it as do all of my peers, I haven't met a single person yet that doesn't like flying choppers. It really is the coolest flying you can do, plus if you're looking to get deployed, helos are the only way to go.  The jets very rarely get deployed, and the multi guys fly in and out, they never spend any time in country.

Cheers

 

[Zoomie]

DEO will be paid 2Lt while holding the rank of OCdt.

Expect a french bypass for now - it will come back later to bite you though.

Like Inch said, Helo's are apparently where the flying is at.  Jet jocks hardly fly and most of the multi-monkeys spend a lot of time tracking a Victor or Jet airway.  SAR flying in the multi world is all VFR and all low-level, happy times for me.

 

[Born2Fly]

I want your job, Zoomie.


Flying Buffalo's. Lucky bastard.   ;D


I'd prefer Multi to anything. Especially SAR multi. Buffalo's, Herc's, Aurora's... Whatever.


Strap a pair of wings on to a washing machine... Let's go.  ;D

 

[Bograt]

Thank you all for your responses. This career change has been a long time coming. My father will be retiring after 31 years in the airforce. My earliest memories are watching (hearing) Argus roar over Summerside PEI and later moving to Greenwood to sneak on base and view the Auroras take off. Two weeks ago I went back to Nova Scotia to visit the folks and drop the family off prior to me leaving for ACS. I had a chance to take them to Greenwood and show them the school and trees I spent my youth in. The day before leaving ACS I rented a C-152 out of Coldbrook (Waterville??) and did a touch an go on 08 in Greenwood. I was in a left hand circuit and an Aurora was in a right hand circuit. It was great.

Flying was something I have always wanted to do, but life always seemed to distract me. Now I have the chance, and we (my family) are very excited.

One of the concerns that my wife had was the moving. Until University she lived in the same house her whole life. When I finally went to University I had moved 17 times. That was in the bad ol days of the 70's 80's. [i]I have heard that people are not getting posted as much as then. Is this correct?[/i]

I do not have delusions of Top Gun. I think my dream job would be in Comox flying Aurora- but anything would be great. One step at a time  ;)

Cheers,

P.S. Inch- I do not know if you were in Stephenville for the Airshow this past July 18th, but please pass on a message to Chris that "the guy from Stephenville got through ACS"

 

[Inch]

Bograt, you are correct. Postings aren't all that often anymore, no one has any money. With the exception of your training (St Jean, OJT, Portage, Moose Jaw, Portage) you'll be able to stay in one place for at least the first 5 years and maybe longer.

I wasn't in Stephenville, was it a 423 Sqn crew or 406 Sqn?  I don't know many guys at 406, PM me the last name and I'll pass on the message.

Cheers

 

[navalair]

Congratulations Bograt.

I have a brother -in-law just finishing up in Moose Jaw and he loves it. You've made an excellent career choice. I'm an Avionics Tech instructor at 406 Sqn and I believe I know the Chris you speak of. I will pass on your good news.

Cheers

 

[Born2Fly]

Bograt, you are correct. Postings aren't all that often anymore, no one has any money. With the exception of your training (St Jean, OJT, Portage, Moose Jaw, Portage) you'll be able to stay in one place for at least the first 5 years and maybe longer.

I think I almost prefer that. Getting moved around every couple of years isn't exactly the best way to build a stable life.

Especially if I ended up in Comox or Pat Bay. I'd be like, "You guys are moving me over my dead body."  ;D

 

[kastanis]

Born2Fly,

You mentioned that you would be on the January BOTP as a pilot.  Do you mind me asking when you received your job offer?  Was it during the spring selection boards of this year?  If so, how come you aren't going to BOTP in september?

I am just curious as to how this process ends up working out, as I am in the process with PLT as a first choice.  Thanks for your help.

 

[Born2Fly]

^ I haven't received the offer yet. My application is in, and is waiting for the selection boards.


I'm HOPING I'll be on the January BOTC if everything goes according to plan.


Of course, this is the CF, so it probably won't.


But, you have to stay positive. It's what gets me up in the morning.


I served in the CF previously before, so I have a good idea of the selection requirements. I think I have a great DEO file... I just hope the selection board agrees with me.


What stage are you at with your application as Pilot?


We may have to rename the topic of this to "Pilots attending January BOTC and who will be going through flight school together."  ;D

 

[kastanis]

Born2Fly,

I have recently completed my interview and medical, I just have to go to the doctor next week to get some info from him, then my medical file should go off to Borden the week of Aug 30.  I am applying for PLT, AERE, CELE, in that order.  I passed my cycloplegic refraction eye exam 2 days ago, and lab work will be done next week as well.  So I hope the medical file will come back in time for me to go to ACS before the PLT selection boards, which you say are in November (where did you find that out?).  It was the intention of the interviewing Lt(N) to send my file in for the engineering MOC selection boards in October, but I'm not sure if that was in addition to, or instead of the PLT selection board.  She did say that I am more competitive a candidate for AERE and CELE than I am for PLT, because of my work experience.  She never mentioned anything about a November selection board, so I'm not sure if they occur in different months for PLT and engineering MOCs.  I guess maybe I should call and find out.  Anyway, I hope I have time considering the 2 weeks that were added on by me having to see my physician about getting more medical info.

What stage of the process are you in?  I assume you have passed ACS?

 

[Bograt]

I feel like I have muscled on the forum. Apologies if I have stepped up to the microphone once too often.

The board is scheduled for early November, and I believe they are 80+ pilots short this year. During a past board 46 applicants were screened, 45 were given job offers. I do not know if this is just DEO applicants or total for that period, but I have been told that unless there is something very significant with your file things look pretty good. The information I have comes from a great source, but it is dated 4-8 months and may have been "spun" to keep me positive. I think it is good info though.

ACS is tough. I did it twice. Last year I washed out and had to go get a PPL and retest. The past year of my life has been focused on two things- being a great Dad, and getting past ACS.
The first time through ACS, I had no flying experience- however there were two PPL holders that also "washed out." The three guys who made it through had no flying time.
The second time there were 6 candidates- 4 pilots. (2 of those were re-testers) All 4 pilots made it through. Did I mention that ACS is tough?

Hopefully we will be shinning shoes together in PQ in January. They don't make you go outside when its cold do they?

 

[Born2Fly]

I feel like I have muscled on the forum. Apologies if I have stepped up to the microphone once too often.

Oh god no. That's what we are all here for. The more information we share, the better it is for all of us. Keep it coming.

The board is scheduled for early November, and I believe they are 80+ pilots short this year.

80 is around the number I heard as well. There should be another board in March, so that means this one in November should be the 2nd last board of the fiscal year.

They don't make you go outside when its cold do they?

Uh... No! Of course not!   ;D

It was the intention of the interviewing Lt(N) to send my file in for the engineering MOC selection boards in October, but I'm not sure if that was in addition to, or instead of the PLT selection board.   She did say that I am more competitive a candidate for AERE and CELE than I am for PLT, because of my work experience.   She never mentioned anything about a November selection board, so I'm not sure if they occur in different months for PLT and engineering MOCs.   I guess maybe I should call and find out.   Anyway, I hope I have time considering the 2 weeks that were added on by me having to see my physician about getting more medical info.

I don't know if they are holding seperate boards in October, but if a Lt(N) tells you there are boards in October, then I would go on the assumption there are boards in October for Engineering occupations. You would be best to get all your documents in as soon as possible.

That could actually work out well for you. You would go through the boards in October, and hopefully get an offer for AERE before the November PLT boards. Once those PLT boards are done, you can find out if you get an offer for PLT as well. Then you can make your decision in November if you want AERE or PLT (or CELE, if you get offered that too.) At that point, I guess you go with what you want more.

A note about the AERE occupation, it's a really good MOC. Aerospace Engineers handle a lot in CF, from maintenance, to research, to commanding departments. If I had an Engineering degree, I know for sure AERE would definitely be my 2nd or 3rd career choice.

What stage of the process are you in?   I assume you have passed ACS?

I would have liked to tell you I have completed ACS yet, but it is not so. I am currently waiting for the phone call to send me out to ACS, and hopefully it comes sooner than later. I already have my PPL (Private Pilot Licence) and through various contacts (including at my flight school), I know what to expect at ACS, and I don't forsee it being too much of a problem, both medical and skill requirements.

I guess that's one of the benefits of having previous service. You still have contacts you can talk to.  


I encourage you guys to keep us updated, as well as anyone else who may be applying for Pilot in the Canadian Forces. We have access to a wealth of information thanks to this board.

 

[saintjoseph]

I thought I would add in my few cents of information. I was in Cold Lake a few weeks ago and had a chance to talk to some people at 410sqn there.

BOTC isn't quite the hell that most members of the military will tell you. I heard some scary stories that freaked me out prior to going. It IS hard though. Your experience will fully depend on your staff though. My platoon staff was certainly more hardcore than other platoons, which I both enjoyed and detested. Remember to be in fairly good shape prior to showing up....it makes a huge difference. Hopefully there will be some other good folks currently course who will pass on tips. Most of them you will learn on your own, but one thing that is good to know ahead of time is to buy two of everything when it comes to toiletries. You will have your 'museum display' and your usable set. And make sure you bring the 5X7 frame and a lot of pictures. Your section commanders love to talk about your pics. Your first four weeks are the worst, depending on how you view the field.

Beyond BOTC, word on the street is that pilots are being pushed past SLT as the backlog of students going into Moose Jaw is now empty. I'm hoping that since we are all hearing the same thing that it might be true. I heard this in St. Jean as well. Sure it might come back to bite us later, but I'd rather get to flying asap. Besides, after attaining your B-A-B french rating you could spend 3 or 4 years or way more in anglophone postings and you will promptly forget how to speak it. Obtaining the B-A-B classification in french is only really a necessity to attain Major, which is a ways off. Heck, I've taken three university level french courses and after 4 months I remember about 10% of it.

For those aspiring fighter jocks, like me-especially after my trip to Cold Lake-what an amazing experience!!!!, our chances of getting a jet spot really seems to depend on the course we are on. Three LT's I talked to all recently saw something different. One had a small class of ~8 and there were 4 fighter spots. Another had a large class with only one jet spot that everyone wanted. One guy said he heard there was a class last year where there was 2 jet spots and no one wanted them. So us fighter jocks are really hoping all our classmates want helo - since there are usually a ton of helo spots.  And it is possible....it amazes me how many pilots-in-waiting are hoping to pick up a transport or helo spot as their first choice.

I had a whole string of things to touch on but I've already lost my train of thought. Its my first time on Army.ca - I'll keep reading through threads and see what I can add and also learn from others. I wish you guys luck who are waiting for the board to decide or to go to ACS. It has always amazed me how I seem to be the only one of all my non-military soon-to-be pilot buddies who is actually excited about their careers and futures.

To Inch and Zoomie: I'm really interested in picking your brains about your experience in BFT and subsequent experience in helo's and those other fixed wing aircraft. Jets will be my first choice and it was really great to check out 4 wing, and ask those guys a ton of questions. But I am really undecided about my 2nd choice. Maybe I will start a thread here somewhere with a few starting questions and see where it heads. You two seem to be the only pilots on here.

 

[Born2Fly]

^ Are you waiting on the selection boards in November?

 

[Inch]

For those aspiring fighter jocks, like me-especially after my trip to Cold Lake-what an amazing experience!!!!, our chances of getting a jet spot really seems to depend on the course we are on. Three LT's I talked to all recently saw something different. One had a small class of ~8 and there were 4 fighter spots. Another had a large class with only one jet spot that everyone wanted. One guy said he heard there was a class last year where there was 2 jet spots and no one wanted them. So us fighter jocks are really hoping all our classmates want helo - since there are usually a ton of helo spots.  And it is possible....it amazes me how many pilots-in-waiting are hoping to pick up a transport or helo spot as their first choice.

Well, I'm going to debunk one of the stories and back up the other one.  In my time in Moose Jaw (Nov 02 - May 04) I didn't know of or hear of a course getting 4 jet slots, and especially out of 8. The reasons this is next to impossible is because 419 Sqn (where you do your FLIT) only has room for 1-2 Cdns per course, usually 1 but sometimes 2. That means 2-3 of those guys would stay in Moose Jaw to instruct.  Though this scenario isn't impossible, it's highly unlikely considering half the cockpits in the CF are helo and a very small percentage are actually Hornet slots. The most I've seen or heard of were 3 jet slots and those went to rather large courses, mine was one of them (0301, we had 18, started with 15, 1 failed and 4 were recoursed onto our course) the other instance was 0304, they also had around 16 if I recall and they got 3 jet spots. You usually get 1 jet, 2 multi and 3 helo per 6 guys. My course filled this formula exactly as did quite a few others in my time there. 3 jet slots is possible but 4... I would venture to say is virtually impossible.

Now, the second story is very much true, it was the course after mine, 0302, and they got 2 jet slots but only 1 guy wanted jets. My course got 3 jet slots with 8 guys asking for them. We tried to swing a trade but to no avail.

So the moral of the story, be prepared to go helo, as I stated before about half the cockpits are helo. It's great flying and I don't regret going helo in the least. Helo school is tough though, usually 1 of 8 fail out and you're done being a pilot in the CF if that happens.  The course after mine in Portage was a total slaughter, 4 of 8 failed. It sucks but that's the nature of the job.

Hope I didn't burst to many bubbles, but I have no reason to bullshit you guys.

Cheers

 

[Zoomie]

This quote amuses me...

  And it is possible....it amazes me how many pilots-in-waiting are hoping to pick up a transport or helo spot as their first choice.

Saintjoseph, I suggest you wait and see how your Moose Jaw experience turns out before making so bold a statement.  My first and only choice was Multi-Engine.  I wanted absolutely nothing to do with flying jets as a living.  Don't get me wrong, they're fun to fly - but imagine doing it all the time?  Do some research into your choices.  Like Inch has already alluded to, the really cool flying is the Helo world.  Jet jocks hardly get any stick time and have to live in less than ideal postings.
I chose Multi-engine because I wanted to fly alot and see some interesting places in the world.  Albeit as a SAR driver I will only see the armpits of BC and the Yukon, eventually I will get out there.
Each stream of aircraft have their combat roles - the most active of which is the Sea King, followed by the Aurora and then coming in last, the Hornet.  Operational flying is obtained nearly 100% of the time by SAR assets, followed by the helo community (both Sea Pig and Griffy).  Jet's are lucky to get deployments like Kosovo once every couple of decades. (last one before that was Gulf War 1)
Like I said, your choice will mature once you get to 2CFFTS and talk to the instructors.

Cheers.