Oh no,another Neverendum Referendum

[Jungle]

I know that a large number of Anglo's have moved from the Montreal area to Ontario, Anglo families of many generations in Quebec who felt it was best for the future of their children.

So the logic here is that it is preferable to uproot the whole family then learn a second language ?? I think you are situating the problem here: Francos are expected to adapt in all circumstances, and Anglos expect Francos to adapt to them in all circumstances, even in Québec !!

How can someone live in Bagotville for years, and not be bilingual ??

I said it before: there are ignorants on both sides, and hardheaded people refuse to adapt to their surrounding. I adapted to my situation, became bilingual and I enjoy being Canadian everywhere I go in this great country. I don't care for ignorants, wherever I find them...

 

[Roy Harding]

So the logic here is that it is preferable to uproot the whole family then learn a second language ??...

I didn't see anything in Baden Guy's post which said it was preferable to move rather than learn a second language.  He just said SOME folks "felt it (MOVING - ROY's ADDITION) was best for the future of their children."  I don't see any reference to language there.

My own parents fall into that camp.  They ARE bilingual anglos - all of my Quebec relatives ARE bilingual anglos - had my parents remained in Lachine I would have been a bilingual anglo.  However, they felt it best to move their young family to where there was less political unrest (remember the mailbox bombings??) and a greater economic future - they went West.  NOTHING to do with language.

I think you are (unfairly) ascribing motivation where none has been enunciated.


Roy

 

[orange.paint]

This only tells me that these guys have NO LOYALTIES?  They, by claiming to be "Separatists", tell me that they have no loyalty to the CF.  Their attending RMC, tells me that they really don't have any strong "Separatist" loyalties, but instead are loyal only to themselves and to their careers.  In both cases, they have proven that they are not the type of person that the CF wants.

Maybe were missing something George.A officer does not see that being separatist means they do not wish to be Canadian.However they enrol in the Canadian armed forces?If they feel SO strongly about separating why don't they go home and wait for the Quebec defence force to kick off?

What do you suggest I do? Go up to my chain of command with a list of names and say "these are separatists, let's burn them!"?

No we don't burn people in Canada.However we do charge people.They do go on PRB.And I'm sure if the right person caught wind of it a cadet could find his way back across the border to Quebec very quick for this.Hopefully someone reads this and inquires.

You stated a problem ( a large one IMHO).And only returned a comment asking myself what you should do.Why not bring a solution to your problem.What do you think is right?

I'm willing to say if the KKK was rampet in RMC something would be done.Why not in this case?

Treason?

I hope the media also picks up on this Fredrick,as posting stuff of this nature can find it's way to public domain (as it already is)of a higher level.
Maybe NIS...

Having said all this I have no problem with Quebecois I work with.Don't picture them to be like this.But it's a scary thought having officers in command of me,that values HIS countrymen over Canadians.

You asked me what I would do?It will sound crude and I would like to say I would write a good memorandum to a higher up.However face punching a separatist officer would suffice.Whats he going to do?Charge you and lose his career in the mean time?I think the Edmonton time would be worth it.

Honestly Frederic you've opened my eyes to something I wouldn't have believed.

Who do separatist get their commission from again??

I didn't see anything in Baden Guy's post which said it was preferable to move rather than learn a second language.  He just said SOME folks "felt it (MOVING - ROY's ADDITION) was best for the future of their children."  I don't see any reference to language there.

My own parents fall into that camp.  They ARE bilingual anglos - all of my Quebec relatives ARE bilingual anglos - had my parents remained in Lachine I would have been a bilingual anglo.  However, they felt it best to move their young family to where there was less political unrest (remember the mailbox bombings??) and a greater economic future - they went West.  NOTHING to do with language.

I think you are (unfairly) ascribing motivation where none has been enunciated.


Roy

+1

 

[FredDaHead]

If they feel SO strongly about separating why don't they go home and wait for the Quebec defence force to kick off?

Actually I asked some of them, and the general answer was something between "I just want to fly planes/drive tanks/shoot guns" and "I want to be in the military. Any military."  ...and "Quebec is part of Canada... for now."

 

[observor 69]

So the logic here is that it is preferable to uproot the whole family then learn a second language ?? I think you are situating the problem here: Francos are expected to adapt in all circumstances, and Anglos expect Francos to adapt to them in all circumstances, even in Québec !!

Anglo families, many families, that I personally know,living in the Montreal area were fluently bilingual but as I said they could see no future for their children in Quebec.

How can someone live in Bagotville for years, and not be bilingual ??

I spent five years in Bagotville and was able to get along in French. I arrived with no french ability.

I said it before: there are ignorants on both sides, and hardheaded people refuse to adapt to their surrounding. I adapted to my situation, became bilingual and I enjoy being Canadian everywhere I go in this great country. I don't care for ignorants, wherever I find them...

Agreed

 

[Big Foot]

Just because the policy changed doesn't mean the mentality has changed. The prevailing mentality among Anglos (especially those coming from places west of Ontario) is that French people just have to learn English; Anglos shouldn't have to learn French, because nobody speaks it anyway. Just look at RMC; most Francos earn their Bs in no time, whereas Anglos barely get their Bs in time to graduate.

Fred, while I do agree with you to a certain extent, I do take exception to your assertion that many Anglos believe they should not have to learn French. Speaking as an Albertan at RMC, I will admit that I have found learning French to be somewhat difficult. However, bearing that in mind, it is not for lack of trying that I don't have all of my Bs. I have in my experience found that many francophones at RMC (note I didn't say all) simply do not speak in French to their anglophone counterparts. There have been several instances where I have attempted to speak French to francophone members of my squadron only to have them reply to me in English. Now, I do take issue with the notion that I will only barely get my final B in time to graduate for the following reason: there are a great number of francophones here at RMC who simply prefer to interact in English, even if adressed in French by anglophone cadets. Now I know that if I was to speak to you in French, you would respond in French. However, in my experience, you are in the minority. The issue of bilingualism is a two way street. Far too many francophones complain that so much is done in English but when faced with an opportunity to assist an anglophone cadet with the amelioration of their French interaction skills, they simply go with the path of least resistance and reply in English. When I speak French, it would be nice if the person I was speaking with actually took the time to reply to me in French. I want to learn the language and I want to do more than barely meet the standard but at times, it feels like all I can do is meet the standard. It's not just an issue with the anglophone cadets, its an issue on both sides of the language divide.

 

[xo31@711ret]

Frederick, you are definitely on the mark that there are uninformed ignorant (not in a derogatory sense) folks on both sides of the fence. I will admit myself as a young teenager (over 30 years ago) I considered most french as separatists bastards. But soon I came to realize how much an uniformed ignoramus I was. After leaving my beautiful home on the 'Rock' (with its own distinct culture mind you), at the age of 17 for the army, I realized how wrong I was. I cannot tell you how many times throughout the years I have heard expressions by both anglos and francos such as 'another g-dammed newfie'; 'can't you newfies do anything right?' ; having someone introduce me to another person and they reapplying 'your a newfie?' or 'so that's what a newfie looks like?' as if I should be wearing rubber boots with a bottle of screech in my hand. Eleven years later after joining I married a beautiful Franco lady, an Acadian from the north shore of NewBrunswick. A few times I have heard people tell me after I told them my wife is a Franco Acadian: 'Oh she is not really french then'. I felt that I had never been so insulted in my life - I would always reply: "Well she is french with a honourable history and culture. I would recommend that when or if you meet my wife, don't ever say she is not really french." She is proud of her heritage (anyone know of 1775?). I have made many great military franco and anglo friends throughout my career each and everyone one all honourable folks. I now have 2 young daughters who have always in franco schools (not immersion) both fluent in french and english, but whose mother tongue is considered french. I remind them to be proud of both their honourable heritages: french Acadians and Newfoundlanders. (Myself I'm still trying to get a grasp on learning french; too old I guess - I know 'Fait pas ca!' 'Arret!' 'Fait de dodo!' and a few other basics. LOL)
Should Quebec separate? Well, I truly believe that is up to the majority of the good Quebec people to vote and decide their own fate. But I also believe that if it does happen, it will, in the long run benefit neither Quebec or Canada.

-gerry at Sept Iles

 

[aesop081]

another separation bullsit debate.......figures......

2 more pages and this will be in the garbage bin.....

 

[xo31@711ret]

another separation bullsit debate....I    just    don't  get    it.

There's been 4 pages of debate;

People are honestly and personally expressing their opinion;

There have been some good points made;

as long as it remains civil, how does it become BS? Why then does the topic threatened to be closed?  Please enlighten me; I am trying not to be difficult. Who decides whether or not a topic is worthy of discussion, one or more individuals.

-gerry

 

[Roy Harding]

another separation bullsit debate....I    just    don't  get    it.

There's been 4 pages of debate;

People are honestly and personally expressing their opinion;

There have been some good points made;

as long as it remains civil, how does it become BS? Why then does the topic threatened to be closed?  Please enlighten me; I am trying not to be difficult. Who decides whether or not a topic is worthy of discussion, one or more individuals.

-gerry

I agree with Gerry.

Not to mention that you (Cdn Aviator) may have hijacked this civil exchange into another pointless "Moderator Bashing" thread - thus ensuring its downward spiral.

Can we get back on topic?

 

[Danjanou]

Consider it back on topic as of now Roy.

I realize that this is an emotional issue for Canadians, East, West, Franco, Anglo and healthy debate is encouraged here and perhaps may go towards “solving” this unique little national dilemma we as a nation have created for ourselves.

However the normal caveats will apply here as in any thread. Debate and posts will be kept civil at all times no exceptions or the post is gone and the poster may find themselves introduced to the warning system. No one here is, or ever been exempt from this basic rule here. Its army.ca not George Orwell’s Animal Farm and it’s sad that I even have to point that out.

 

[andpro]

1.) I'm willing to say if the KKK was rampet in RMC something would be done.Why not in this case?

2.) I hope the media also picks up on this Fredrick,as posting stuff of this nature can find it's way to public domain (as it already is)of a higher level.
Maybe NIS...

3.) Having said all this I have no problem with Quebecois I work with.Don't picture them to be like this.But it's a scary thought having officers in command of me,that values HIS countrymen over Canadians.

4.) You asked me what I would do?It will sound crude and I would like to say I would write a good memorandum to a higher up.However face punching a separatist officer would suffice.Whats he going to do?Charge you and lose his career in the mean time?I think the Edmonton time would be worth it.

Note: I am not sympathetic to the separatist cause but I have some problems with what you are saying.

1.) So you're comparing separatists to the KKK? apart from the FLQ crisis which was a long time ago, do you see any separatists today killing people because they are Anglo? Separatism is not as extreme as it was at the time of the FLQ.

2.) NIS? common now. It's not like we have a bunch of neo-nazis running around RMC. NIS has a lot of better things to do than go on a witch hunt of RMC for separatists.

3.) " HIS countrymen over Canadians" - So you are suggesting that Quebecois are not Canadians? Who says that all separatists would not treat everyone equally? We are not dealing with extremists here, although a lot of separatists don't like Anglos, I am willing to bet that there are some separatists that don't hold a grudge against the common Anglo citizen. There are some separatists in my family but they don't hate me because I am an Anglo.

4.) So what you are saying is that we should take violent action against the separatist cause and drive Quebec even further away?



edit: grammar

 

[Strike]

It's interesting what is being said about speaking french to a Franco and having them reply in english.  I have tried this so many times without any luck.  Of course, I'm sure if I engaged my current CO in french he would be more than happy to carry on the conversation in that language.

As for my dealings with separatists, my uncle and his two sons were both staunch separatists -- until they started travelling to other countries.  France, Spain, various states in the U.S., all served to provide them with a window into how the rest of the world sees Canada, a country that whole heartedly includes Quebec as far as these foreigners know.  The all came back from their various trips with a new attitude and, although they aren't shouting it on the rooftops, they certainly aren't separatists anymore.

I remember watching the results of the '95 referendum on TV while at RMC.  It was very much like watching a football game.  Everytime that .1% flipped sides there was a cheer from either end of the lounge.  Of course, when it was all over we all went back to work.  It didn't really seem to be taken all that seriously by most of the Quebecois students -- except for one, who went to her room crying.  She was shunned for quite some time.

 

[Journeyman]

-- except for one, who went to her room crying.  She was shunned for quite some time.

But you're OK now though, right?  ;D

 

[Genetk44]

What I find interesting about the whole concept of seperation are the following.....every seperatist I've ever talked to,  can't really tell me how a seperate Quebec will actually change their day-to-day lives...after all if you are Franco and liveing in Quebec you are liveing in a French society....all dealings are in French, french tv, french signs, french when dealing with business or government etc etc....suddenly the person realizes that almost nothing would change...except they wouldn't have to fill out a federal tax form and they could say they are citizens of the Rep. du Quebec. The second thing thats interesting and that follows from the above is that most pro-seperatists I've talked to, when really pressed ultimately end-up useing past history as the reason to seperate....totally ignoreing the fact that almost all the causes of past grievences have been redressed or eliminated in Quebec. As said before...its an emotional issue and I'm convinced its one that a small group of loud, power-hungry intellectuals are useing to manipulate the masses soley to get power.

 

[orange.paint]

1.) So you're comparing separatists to the KKK? apart from the FLQ crisis which was a long time ago, do you see any separatists today killing people because they are Anglo? Separatism is not as extreme as it was at the time of the FLQ.

Is it not?Were there not bomb threats on the 15th Feb?Separatist among CANADIAN FORCESLeadership is an extreme slap in any Canadians face.And yes Quebec is a part of Canada.What are the KKK wanting to do?Making W.A.S.P enclaves in the United States.Sound familiar?
As for the armed action you are correct.May be a bit extreme to compare the two.

Raymond villeneuve ring a bell?
http://www.mlnq.net/
Read the manifesto (wow how did a guy against separatism manage that eh?)

 2.) NIS? common now. It's not like we have a bunch of neo-nazis running around RMC. NIS has a lot of better things to do than go on a witch hunt of RMC for separatists.

Why would they need a witch hunt?Frederick has outlined pretty well who he is and where he works.If a general member can really pin point him,why not approach him and find out if his allegations of treason are correct?Remove these people from the army.As we are for Canadian defense,Canadian interest.Not a organisation that should have people WANTING this great country split up.RMC separatist turn into my bosses which I will get into a bit later.

3.) " HIS countrymen over Canadians" - So you are suggesting that Quebecois are not Canadians? Who says that all separatists would not treat everyone equally? We are not dealing with extremists here, although a lot of separatists don't like Anglos, I am willing to bet that there are some separatists that don't hold a grudge against the common Anglo citizen. There are some separatists in my family but they don't hate me because I am an Anglo.

I suggest you read back.As I was referring to a sportiest and HIS countrymen (which doesn't exist right now).What happens when Cpl Johnston and Cpl Villeneuve are in a section with separatist captain Jean Guy?He obviously feels wronged by Canadians am I not correct?Would he treat his subordinates fairly?I think not.And to argue otherwise is strictly being ignorant to human nature.Where did I say Quebecois were not Canadians?Separatist REFER TO THEMSELVES as non Canadians?It's a loyality issue.It would be a leadership issue.A supporter of a sepertist movement does not belong in the Canadian Army.

4.) So what you are saying is that we should take violent action against the separatist cause and drive Quebec even further away?

Well obviously another one of your officer cadet peers cannot seem how to deal with it asked what I suggest he do.I offered what I would do.Yes it's crude.You seem to be sympathetic to treason to our country (Canada by the way)by other officer cadets.How would you deal with it?Personally one saying he hates his home being part of Canada,dressed in a Canadian uniform is grounds for dismissal.How would punching a member of the Canadian forces in the mouth drive Quebec further away?

As for your little ignorance is bliss comment.That is the kind of thing that get discussions locked down.Due to the fact someone has blinders on,unable to see anyone Else's point of view and returns with insults.Suggestion would be to grow up.Insults add nothing to the conversation.

 

[andpro]

I agree that the ignorance is bliss comment was too far and did not contribute to the discussion, so I have removed it.

The bomb threat is new to me so I can't comment on it. As for that web site, it was made by some guy who represents a minority of Quebecois. If the officer cadets at RMC felt as strongly as this guy they wouldn't be in the army in the first place.

Le Mouvement de Libération Nationale du Québec (MLNQ) s'oppose à la mondialisation néolibérale et à l'impérialisme...

 
If he thinks that we are neoliberal and imperialist he has his head stuck in the sand.

It's not illegal to want to separate. They can believe in separatism all they want for all I care as long as they don't take violent action, or engage in behavior that is destructive to our nation.

So what about the anglophones that would like nothing more than to see Quebec separate? Don't you think that these people would treat Quebecois differently, are you suggesting that we kick out these people too? where do we draw the line?

Personally one saying he hates his home being part of Canada,dressed in a Canadian uniform is grounds for dismissal.

I would be curious as to what Ottawa would do I doubt that they would take such a radical stance. If he hates Canada as much as that guy who made that website he wouldn't have signed up for the forces in the first place. 

I didn't say that one punch in the mouth will drive Quebec further away, I said that violence against Quebec separatists in general will drive Quebec further away. Also kicking out all separatists will create and uproar and only make more Quebecois angry. 

As for saying that I am sympathetic to the separatist cause is completely ridiculous. I love Quebec as much as I love Canada, and I believe that a Canada without Quebec is something that I never want to see, but we will only speed up separation if things like you are suggesting are done. The resolution of our problem will be solved through diplomacy and education. 

I acknowledge my ignorance in my previous post and I apologize for it. 

 

[orange.paint]

The bomb threat is new to me so I can't comment on it. As for that web site, it was made by some guy who represents a minority of Quebecois. If the officer cadets at RMC felt as strongly as this guy they wouldn't be in the army in the first place.  

Yes.He is a former founder of the old FLQ.Charged and done jail time for murder.And has started up his B/S again in the Belle Province.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/18/flq-letter.html
Here's one link to the bombing threats.

It's not illegal to want to separate. They can believe in separatism all they want for all I care as long as they don't take violent action, or engage in behavior that is destructive to our nation. So what about the anglophones that would like nothing more than to see Quebec separate? Don't you think that these people would treat Quebecois differently, are you suggesting that we kick out these people too? where do we draw the line?

I also had a bit of time to think about it a bit more.I guess it's like racism in the military as well.It is there.No matter what anyone says about SHARPE training and equal rights.It comes down to where a person was raised and how.I a person was born to hate Mexicans he most likely will.However he cannot say out loud I hate Mexicans/beef pot pies/whites.
Now a problem that I'm seeing is there are members of our CF who are quite open about wanting to divide the country.

However you say you don't care as long as they don't take action.Well what about the far right people who start a bombing campain? (as CBC alluded to earlier)These people are on who's side?The separatist.As they are going through a means to get sovereignty.Not political but through force,as the assneck in the MLNQ alludes to over and over again.So then where does a member of the CF stand?Who then do you trust with truck loads of ammo?The man with ties maybe to the MLNQ?
See where I'm trying to get?
As George said it's a loyalty issue.
Maybe we should ask this question at the recruiting center?Didn't they ask for communist parties?isn't it illegal to be part of a communist party in Canada in the military?(I'm asking not telling facts)

So what about the anglophones that would like nothing more than to see Quebec separate? Don't you think that these people would treat Quebecois differently, are you suggesting that we kick out these people too? where do we draw the line?

The people IMHO who wish to see it separate are the people getting sick of the "look at me"tactics as this threat of referendum,and uneducated hillybillies who have never left the backsticks.However these people are not supporting a party to directly kick out Quebec.There is no Anti Quebec party of Canada.Or the Anglo separation party.

 
The resolution of our problem will be solved through diplomacy and education. 

+1

I agree that the ignorance is bliss comment was too far and did not contribute to the discussion, so I have removed it.
I acknowledge my ignorance in my previous post and I apologize for it. 

N/P.We all have done it.At least you didn't use ( :). 

;D
Good discussion.
What would you suggest in reference to preventing the division of Canada?What creates a separtist?Can we really trust a man in the military who OPENLY admits to being a separatist?

 

[andpro]

The bombing threats look like a bunch of b/s fear mongering to me, but anytime that a letter like that surfaces it is very disturbing to see. As I have said before the guys who write this b/s are representative of a small minority, your average Quebecois does not want to bomb shopping malls and highways. If it were a member of the CF who wrote that letter of course they should be discharged, but unless it can be proved that they are apart of the FLQ, the MLNQ or whatever there is nothing that can be done, they have the right to their own opinion as much you may disagree with it. I don't know about the communist thing, but I was not asked if I was a member of the communist party.

Can we really trust a man in the military who OPENLY admits to being a separatist?

At the end of the day we all just have a job to do, and if he can do the job as well as the guy next to him why not?

What would you suggest in reference to preventing the division of Canada?

Well we could start by sitting down to a good game of hockey and talk it over during the intermissions. Preferably a game between two American teams. Montreal against another Canadian team would create WWIII.  op:

 

[FredDaHead]

Well we could start by sitting down to a good game of hockey and talk it over during the intermissions. Preferably a game between two American teams. Montreal against another Canadian team would create WWIII.  op:

Actually, if we had Montreal against the Toronto Laughs, I think pretty much all of Canada, from Alberta to those weird Atlantic provinces, and maybe even BC (if they could lay off the green for that long), would agree that Toronto sucks and we should expulse THEM from Canada. See, we'd have Canada-wide peace!