Oh dear God, you must be kidding me....

[englishmuffin]

And, while we're at it: what is the recidivism rate in China?

Low...although I'd hazard a guess not a lot of people walk out of prison there in the first place.

 

[Yrys]

And, while we're at it: what is the recidivism rate in China?

It may be an interesting fact to know, but Canadians will never go for their justice system, so it's not applicable here...

 

[Sheerin]

While I may not agree with some of the treatment these offenders are receiving, I do find myself wondering how you guys seriously expect certain offenders to successfully re intergrate into society once their prison term is up?  Unless of course you're advocating that we just throw away the key for everyone?

This could be the bleeding heart liberal in me, but how likely is it for a kid or young adult to get out of prison without any qualifications to find a job that will actually support them?  it's not like working at McDonald's will earn anyone enough to survive.  So if those who have done their time can't successfully re intergrate, what else is there other than a life of crime? 

 

[Steel Badger]

Once upon a time at the Guelph Correctional Centre, there were a lot of training programs that offered an inmate something on release. But those programs were seen as a waste of taxpayer dollars and resulted in outraged complaints from local businesses / tradesmen who wanted to know why we trained inmates to repair engines or work autobody, or weld. 

A man with prospects at least has a chance when he hits the streets........

As for the Young Offender system being designed to re-integrate the youths back into society...it does. It leaves them in precisely the same state they arrived in. It does NOT reform or correct because there are NO sanctions at all.

Focussing on reintegration aloows people to ignore the critical issue of RUNNING institutions. Most of our clientele does NOT wish to reintegrate. They feel that THEY have chosen the correct path in life.

Using kid gloves on most of our clients is counterproductive to say the least.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

While I may not agree with some of the treatment these offenders are receiving, I do find myself wondering how you guys seriously expect certain offenders to successfully re intergrate into society once their prison term is up?  Unless of course you're advocating that we just throw away the key for everyone?

This could be the bleeding heart liberal in me, but how likely is it for a kid or young adult to get out of prison without any qualifications to find a job that will actually support them?  it's not like working at McDonald's will earn anyone enough to survive.  So if those who have done their time can't successfully re intergrate, what else is there other than a life of crime? 

BULLSHIT!!!!!!

There are lots of good honest people out there with no qualifications who make a go of it. Why the $&@# should Joe Honest who works two jobs to support himself/family be put furthur behind the 8-ball because some piece of shit low-life learned how to weld or fix small engines whilst serving time for raping your sister?

%#@*, we are a stunned society.

 

[Sheerin]

BULLSHIT!!!!!!

There are lots of good honest people out there with no qualifications who make a go of it. Why the $&@# should Joe Honest who works two jobs to support himself/family be put furthur behind the 8-ball because some piece of crap low-life learned how to weld or fix small engines whilst serving time for raping your sister?

%#@*, we are a stunned society.

Well times are changing there Bruce.  The number of unskilled jobs that actually pay a liveable wage drying up quickly.  Unless you be live making 8 dollars an hour as a walmart greeter provides a liveable income? 

Your fear mongering doesn't really help your point.  I would personally love it if a dirt bag who raped my nonexistent little sister (lets change that to niece) was never given the opportunity to breath free air again.  I was more speaking of people who, thanks to some piss poor choices on their part, end up in engaging some form of criminal activity (excluding rape, murder, child porn et cetera et cetera).  Can you honestly tell me that someone who leaves prison with a grade 10 education (at best!), is likely to find any sort legitimate job that will actually allow this individual to thrive as a productive member of society?  I'm not saying that we are responsible for their actions, what I am saying is that while we are punishing those who commit crimes, we should also do our best to ensure that they won't re offend.  A lot of you will point to history and say that the punishment 150 years ago was harsh and as such there was a low rat eof reoffense.  But what you're omitting is that the economy was totally different back then.  You could survive with just your two hands and muscles, now, not so much.

To give you an example, DOFASCO in Hamilton used to hire just about anyone to work in the factory, now the minimum qualification is a university degree.  Same goes for other factories which historically have only required very rudimentary education.  Times are a changing

 

[Munxcub]

Well if they can't find a livable job with a grade 10, ex-con background, maybe they should have made better choices. I don't have much sympathy for someone who chose to live outsides the boundaries of responsible  society and then cries when they are no longer accepted. You made your bed, now lie in it, not my problem that yours happens to be outside, while mine is under a roof. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY ACCOUNTABILITY is just that, personal. I took responsibility for my life a long time ago, I guess it's too much to ask that others do the same. </rant>

 

[beands]

In my opinion, our prison system should go bare bones.
No TV/internet, no couches, no prestige meals, no workout equipment, no anything.
If you rape/murder/(insert other violent crime here), then you need to be given the time appropriate for the crime, and nothing but 8 by 10 cell, alone without even a book or paper to write on. Much like when you were grounded as kid, alone to think about what you had done. Nothing but time to THINK.
Only rice/noodles for meals, and ground beef. The only time out of cell would be for laundry, or bathing or cleaning some part of the prison.

For nonviolent crimes, pot smoking/tax/computer fraud/etc, an appropriate fine or house arrest.

We spend way too much on giving these people luxuries the average Joe can't normally afford. Society works damn hard for the television, and even harder to get the better cable/satelite and nevermind the furnishings to enjoy it with. Even at home we Have to work for our meals. Nobody cooks me steak and potatoes every Friday, and washes the dishes for me too. I cook my own meals and the nice meals are fewer and farther between than what criminals get.
And now young offenders get copious amounts of money for the crap they don't deserve or at least earn?
Why do taxpayers have less creature comforts then criminals?
Not to mention honest Joe to get a mortgage, doesn't have the credit, can maybe get $100 000 in a market where the average is $400 000, and the lowest  available is $230 000. Meanwhile rapist pigface gets set up in a place with ultra minimum rent, set up with welfare program for released inmates, help to get a job and the whole bit.
No requirement to earn or learn, just open your hands and catch everything you need.

And we wonder WHY are there so many repeat offenders.

End rant here, I have to go to work so I can make supper, pay my taxes, bills and overpriced rent.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Can you honestly tell me that someone who leaves prison with a grade 10 education (at best!), is likely to find any sort legitimate job that will actually allow this individual to thrive as a productive member of society? 

Well I had 11 credits,...not even Grade 10, when I left and well................I like me!!!


...and they reoffend because they WANT to, its easier than actually working.

 

[Scott]

While I may not agree with some of the treatment these offenders are receiving, I do find myself wondering how you guys seriously expect certain offenders to successfully re intergrate into society once their prison term is up?

The same way most of us have integrated ourselves into society all on our lonesome.

This could be the bleeding heart liberal in me

Agreed.

but how likely is it for a kid or young adult to get out of prison without any qualifications to find a job that will actually support them?

Again, the same way the rest of us do. They may find it harder and they bloody well should.

I know a few guys who stepped into it big time when they were kids and were never given the "benefits" that we are talking about here. They now lead the same productive lives that you are talking about. How did they do it? They put their nose down and earned it.

Well I had 11 credits,...not even Grade 10, when I left and well................I like me!!!


...and they reoffend because they WANT to, its easier than actually working.

Yup! + a bunch.

 

[beands]

I guess I should have added there are those who actually gain from their punishment, and not in the sence they get a free education. Some get the desire NOT to go back.
I just feel they are given too many free rides and handouts while the good guy has to work his butt off to scrounge up a half-a**ed living, while paying for crooked joe to get most everything he ever dreamed of.

 

[Sheerin]

Well some of you may misunderstand what I mean.  I personally don't believe that Prison should be a cake walk; they shouldn't be able to watch TV, movies, play pool or the like.  The food shouldn't be good, it should be nutritionally adequate (I'm thinking some form of paste that has all the nutrients, minerals, salts the body needs). 
As for education, yes I firmly believe they should have access to an education, particularly young offenders.  Like i said above it is quite difficult, if not downright impossible to find any job that will pay enough to support any one without some form of education.  Some of you may point to people you know (or yourself) and say "well I don't have a formal education but I did pretty damned well for myself", well I would venture to say people like that are the exception rather than the rule.  If we release people at the end of their prison sentence with out the tools required to succeed in today's economy then we are releasing them with the expectation that they will fail and choose/be forced back into a life of crime.  Afterall, isn't one of the goals of incarceration is to rehabilitate the offender?   
If given the choice between earning 15,000/year while working 40 hours a week as a burger flipper or wal-mart greeter  or making 40-60k a year without paying taxes through crime, what would you choose?  Is it any wonder that some people choose crime?  Perhaps if we educated them to the point that they could make a middle class income then some/most of those in the system would upon their release, live a hard working, law abiding life? 



I also firmly believe that post secondary education should be free for all those that wish to persue it (but that's really a different topic). 

 

[Scott]

So it's OK to feed them groule but we can shell out thousands so that Johnny can make a guitar because that expands his knowledge? Where does it stop?

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, these guys would have had the chance to get that nice job you speak of if they hadn't frigged up in the first place? So now, because criminals find it hard to find employment I should shell out more money on their education to make them more employable so they don't return to a life of crime? It's my fault, right?

If we release people at the end of their prison sentence with out the tools required to succeed in today's economy then we are releasing them with the expectation that they will fail and choose/be forced back into a life of crime. 

You have got to be joking. I am holding back saying what I really think here as it will clearly spell out what I think of your level of intelligence after that remark.

If given the choice between earning 15,000/year while working 40 hours a week as a burger flipper or wal-mart greeter  or making 40-60k a year without paying taxes through crime, what would you choose?  Is it any wonder that some people choose crime? 

Sweet Chocolate Christ! You're right! To hell with the firefighting biz and this Army.ca crap, I am going out to knock over the nearest Mac's! We must all be stupid, paying taxes, EI, CPP, paying for gas, groceries, meals...hell, I had breakfast out this morning and tipped 20%, GOOD GOD!

You know, I do see your point, but I hall never agree.

 

[canadianblue]

Well the thing is though, aren't we better off if we rehabilitate those that can be rehabilitated and then re-integrate them into society. As much as I think we are too lenient on criminals that are serving time in prison, I think to say that they made a bad choice thus they should be confined to flipping hamburgers or working as a Wal Mart greeter is somewhat puerile. I would prefer our prison system to be based on the idea that in order to get anything one should have to earn it, whether it be through good behavior, or working, etc. If a prisoner is making steps towards bettering himself I wouldn't have a problem having him get his high school diploma or a trade while in prison so he can work at a decent job after serving his time.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yea Sheerin,
I guess the two PHD's on my unit will stop molesting their nieces if they get some more education........

Folks,
rehabilitate

Is the biggest con game society plays on itself......................its greed, greed and more greed.  Its not poverty, its not some oft wiring [mostly], its not lack of education,.......ITS GREED.


Using Sigs Guy and Sheerins philosophy, this guy is a model citizen, no?  If not maybe some more education might help?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/06/27/lafleur-sponsorhip.html?ref=rss

 

[Edward Campbell]

Accepting, as I do, that a whole lot of people are just plain bad, and recognizing that I may come off as a loony left wing nut, I do have a theory about crime and punishment.  It’s a theory based on nothing much except ‘thought.’  I have neither formal training nor experience in law, law enforcement, corrections, rehabilitation or anything else – beyond what one learns from years and years of regimental duty up to and including command.

I think most criminals are stupid.*

Most reasonably smart or even slightly intelligent people understand that crime does not pay, not as well as a half decent job anyway.  Most also understand, even if they don’t like the fact, that education is the key to that good job.  I have read that prisons are full of the least educated Canadians.

I also think that some (much?) of our school system does little except prepare many children, especially boys and especially aboriginal boys and boys from some (but not all) visible minority communities for socio-economic failure, crime and prison.

Too many boys ‘graduate’ from some level of high school without elementary literacy, numeracy or what our American friends call ‘civics.’  We ought not to be surprised that they cannot get a half decent job – who wants to hire a kind who cannot read or handle a waybill or who does not comprehend how an honest, hard working society functions?  These same children are also exposed – overexposed – to a constant stream of sound and image which glorifies the gangster/drug dealer/pimp lifestyle with all its bling-bling, big cars, fast women and easy money.  Why are we even slightly surprised when they want what they see on TV?  Why are we surprised when, being unemployable, they turn to crime to get what they want?

How to fix it?

Keep them in school, but, big  BUT make them learn in school.

How?

First: feed them.  Teachers have told me that many schools in Canada’s richest cities are full of children, boys and girls, who have a hard time learning anything because they are hungry – every morning when they arrive in school.  I believe it costs something like $75,000 per year – likely more – to incarcerate an offender.  I think we can provide 10 good solid meals per week, 40 weeks per year, year after year for about $2,500.00/year – in other words we can feed 30 kids for a year for the cost of keeping just one of them in jail.  It must be worth it.

Second: While we’re at it we should also insist upon school uniforms to help damp down the style and gang ‘cultures’ and we can also provide free uniforms to children from poor families (through a combination of vouchers (for all) and tax claw backs).

Third: Stop passing kids, grade after grade just because they aged a year and grew an inch.  Provide ‘streams’ and more vocational schools and programmes.  Get e.g. the Ontario Federation of Labour and the Canadian Chamber of Commerce involved in education standards – they know what a real ‘elementary’ education ought to involve.  They know what a kid ‘must know’ to get a hold a half decent job.  Let them set real, practical, measurable performance standards and then let the educrats in Edmonton, Toronto, Halifax etc develop curricula and so on which will allow most children to meet them.  (Also, let universities and colleges set and mark their own entrance exams and let the educrats design curricula for that, too.)

Let’s aim at diverting some kids away from crime and towards productive, honest citizenship.  It will not take very many success stories to pay for the programmes.

-----------
* I’m happy to stipulate that some, a few are ‘smart’ and a small group, even fewer are actually intelligent .


P.S. I also favour corporal punishment - public corporal punishment - for a wide range of adult offences, including, in some cases, as an alternative to jail.

 

[Sheerin]

So it's OK to feed them groule but we can shell out thousands so that Johnny can make a guitar because that expands his knowledge? Where does it stop?

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, these guys would have had the chance to get that nice job you speak of if they hadn't frigged up in the first place? So now, because criminals find it hard to find employment I should shell out more money on their education to make them more employable so they don't return to a life of crime? It's my fault, right?

Well first of all, I never really said it was societies fault that they're in prison.  And from what the story said, it sounded like they gave him the wood for reasons other than educational.  Again, I don't agree with that. 
As for the money, I'm sure they could save money by not buying TVs and other amenities.

You have got to be joking. I am holding back saying what I really think here as it will clearly spell out what I think of your level of intelligence after that remark.

Why is it okay for Directing Staff to belittle someone's intelligence because they don't agree with they said? 

Sweet Chocolate Christ! You're right! To hell with the firefighting biz and this Army.ca crap, I am going out to knock over the nearest Mac's! We must all be stupid, paying taxes, EI, CPP, paying for gas, groceries, meals...hell, I had breakfast out this morning and tipped 20%, GOOD GOD!

You know, I do see your point, but I hall never agree.

To some people thats a perfectly reasonable alternative, to me it most certainly is not. 
As for your last comment, i'm not sure if meant that to be sarcastic or not. 

Yea Sheerin,
I guess the two PHD's on my unit will stop molesting their nieces if they get some more education........

Did you even read what I said or are you just choosing to ignore it and make smart ass remarks? 

You can't really equate a sexual crime with a kid knocking over a 7-11 or getting involved in gangs, or what have you.

 

[Scott]

Why is it okay for Directing Staff to belittle someone's intelligence because they don't agree with they said?

Get this straight, I am posting in this thread as a member of this site, not as Staff, do not bring that into the equation, please. Full stop.

Belittling? No. Questioning. You said that criminals can be "forced back into a life of crime", I find that laughable and would question the intelligence of anyone making such an asinine statement.

As for your last comment, i'm not sure if meant that to be sarcastic or not. 

Actually, I did see your point. I don't agree with it but can figure out where you're coming from.

But now I am confused. Which is the reasonable alternative that you refer to?

 

[Sheerin]

Belittling? No. Questioning. You said that criminals can be "forced back into a life of crime", I find that laughable and would question the intelligence of anyone making such an asinine statement.
 

Forced as in an individual may feel that there is no other alternative.  It doesn't really matter if you or I see an alternative, if they don't then they may feel forced.  I was not suggesting that the state was actively forcing them into crime for some sinister purpose. 

But now I am confused. Which is the reasonable alternative that you refer to? 

It's not reasonable to us, but to some it may seem a reasonable alternative to turn to crime of regular legal work doesn't actually provide a livable wage.  Its all based on perspective.  You and I share a common perspective in that crime is not a reasonable alternative, but to someone else it may be.

Get this straight, I am posting in this thread as a member of this site, not as Staff, do not bring that into the equation, please. Full stop.

Well considering your user name has 'moderator' written quite prominently above your name, it's hard to distinguish between when you're a regular member and when you're a moderator. 

 

[Munxcub]

It's not reasonable to us, but to some it may seem a reasonable alternative to turn to crime of regular legal work doesn't actually provide a livable wage.  Its all based on perspective.  You and I share a common perspective in that crime is not a reasonable alternative, but to someone else it may be.

And if they continue to see crime as a reasonable alternative, as opposed to getting a legit job and living within the means that it provides (it IS possible... you just need to give some stuff up...) That they are not ready to be let back out into society, and if they never see crime as an unacceptable means of living then I guess they never get to reintegrate into society...