November 2015: Paris Bataclan attack/hostage taking

[jmt18325]

It will only be fair. I mean if we have born and bred Canadians killing people here, why shouldn't they get the same treatment as ISIS vice just locking them up in prison wasting taxpayers dime.

Because we're a nation of laws.

 

[CSNorseman]

Radical Islam is a contamination, and should be treated as such. The muslim community as a whole has an obligation to discredit terrorist actions taken in the name Islam; and in my opinion they have not been doing enough to dissuade younger muslims that are at risk of radicalization.

 

 

[daftandbarmy]

I fear less what "they" will do to us than what we will do to ourselves.

Sadly, likely true:

Wednesday, Sep 19, 2001 11:47 AM PDT

Lessons on how to fight terror

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.

Britain has been fighting wars against terrorism for most of the years since the end of World War II. The longest war has been in Ireland; but British troops have also fought Jewish and Arab terrorists in Palestine, from 1945-47; Greek terrorists in Greece and Cyprus, Arabs in Aden, Yemen, Oman and Dhofar; Chinese communists in the Malaysian jungles in the 1950s, and so, almost endlessly, on. We’ve lost some, we’ve won some. In Ireland — our most publicized grapple with terror — I think we’ve fought a draw, despite being incomparably richer, more numerous and better armed than our opponents.

Here are some of the lessons we have learned:

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/

 

[AllSmiles]

Thoughts and prayers to the people of France. We must stand together with the survivors and victims of Paris today to reassure them, console them and empathize with them.
Remove our hats and cover our hearts while we offer what we can.
When France has decided what it needs let's do our best to make sure that us Canadians are ready to support our brothers across the pond.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Oops.  Some may not be interested in a war against "Islam", but at least a very small part of "Islam" is interested in a war against you.

>Yes Saddam was captured, but that didn't exactly solve the issues there

The only thing stopping a coalition from going in and ripping IS* (or whoever) to shreds is political will.  Resource and capability constraints are negligible.  Really, there is nothing stopping "us" from going in and hanging every political and military leader of IS* (or whoever) from corporal to president from a lamppost, telling the Hague to fu<k off, and then reverting back to whatever we imagine to be "humanitarian" standards thereafter.  Repeat as needed until they start going after softer targets.

It is commonplace to assert that if we do "X", we are no better than they are.  That is not really true.  For example, I may stipulate that against the Germans and Japanese we committed atrocities, but it is irrevocably true that with the war won we set those means aside.  Those who use those means routinely are definitely worse.

If the orcs show up, resist.  Fight.  Win.  Or, accept the occasional losses, commiserate with the victims over their bad luck, and move on.  As long as I don't have to listen to any more hand-wringing about how to feed a crocodile.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I don't think anyone recognizes ISIS as a "state". They can call themselves whatever they want, doesn't mean the word sees them as such

Lots of people, including some reputable scholars, like Prof Stephen M Walt of Harvard, writing in the current issue of Foreign Affairs, call it just that.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The only way to win...if you can...is boots on the ground. It's time to unleash the dogs of war.

The battle of ideas is more complex and takes time to win. Their ideas have to be countered with ours.

There are, already, plenty of "boots on the ground" and we needn't add unwelcome Western ones. We, the US led West, should be selling them weapons and we should be encouraging young Muslim men to join one side or the other, not to take refuge in Canada.

The better course of action is to sell arms and watch from the sidelines, over the course of a generation (or two or three) as the peoples of the regions (North Africa, the Near and Middle East and South West Asia) sort themselves out in their own, bloody, ways.

 

[Edward Campbell]

There may be, but I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of tarring all Muslims with the ISIS/jihadist broad stroke. 

Shades of the forced resettlement of Japanese-Americans in WWII and all.

I agree 100% ...
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... but (there's always a "but" isn't there?)
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... Brad is also correct when he says "at least a very small part of "Islam" is interested in a war against you."

We, the US led West, need to concern ourselves with that "small part," not the corner store shopkeeper or the engineer or the taxi driver just trying to make a life for his or her family as best (s)he can.

We need to help that "small" part ~ which is already engaged in civil wars and revolutions across the whole Islamic Crescent (which stretches from Morocco on the Atlantic all the way through the Middle East and South Asia to Indonesia) ~ to fight its own wars against its own, real, internal enemies, other "small parts" of Islam. We can help by selling arms and denying visas.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Sadly, likely true:

Wednesday, Sep 19, 2001 11:47 AM PDT

Lessons on how to fight terror

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.

Britain has been fighting wars against terrorism for most of the years since the end of World War II. The longest war has been in Ireland; but British troops have also fought Jewish and Arab terrorists in Palestine, from 1945-47; Greek terrorists in Greece and Cyprus, Arabs in Aden, Yemen, Oman and Dhofar; Chinese communists in the Malaysian jungles in the 1950s, and so, almost endlessly, on. We’ve lost some, we’ve won some. In Ireland — our most publicized grapple with terror — I think we’ve fought a draw, despite being incomparably richer, more numerous and better armed than our opponents.

Here are some of the lessons we have learned:

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/

Just a tiny historical quibble: the Brits have been "fighting wars against terrorism" since the 16th century: against e.g. the Earls of Tyrone in Ireland and then against First Nations (who, being weaker, used "terrorist" type tactics) in North America and against the Boers, in the late 19th century, who abandoned modern tactics after Paardeberg.

 

[Remius]

Running a whole family down with your car i.e taking their lives in your book is OK compared to ISIS killing people? Sounds like you condone say a farmer firing on RCMP officers, biker gangs killing people, drug dealers killing people in Vancounver, and rick kids killing a whole family and looking to get off scott free. If it was your family, I guess you will just turn the other cheek?

I'm getting the feeling that you are trolling.

Someone mentioned roman methods.  The Romans had a very simple way of dealing with this kind of thing.  You roll in hard and take out the plague.  All of it.  It might be the only thing they understand.  No nation building, no hearts and minds, no connecting with communities.  You go in and kill the bad guys and get out. Rinse and repeat if they start up again. 

Mr. Campbell offers another solution. Just get out.  Completely and let the Middle East sort itself out.  Secure our borders, invest that money in our own security apparatus and then see what emerges.  If it sucks then see my first suggestion.

There is no one solution.  I see chirping about our cf 18 s all over the net.  Our CF18s are not making a difference.  They clearly didn't prevent this.  Half hearted commitments or symbolic commitments are not going to end this.  You either go all in or not at all and deal with whatever gets created after. And even then.

 

[The Bread Guy]

We, the US led West, need to concern ourselves with that "small part," not the corner store shopkeeper or the engineer or the taxi driver just trying to make a life for his or her family as best (s)he can.

:goodpost:

I fear less what "they" will do to us than what we will do to ourselves.

:goodpost: too

Meanwhile, back to the "whazzup?" bits ....

• CNN:  "ISIS claimed responsibility for gunfire and blasts that targeted six sites in Paris, killing 128 people in one of the nation's deadliest massacres.  In an online statement distributed by supporters, the terror group said eight militants wearing explosive belts and armed with machine guns attacked precisely selected areas in the French capital ...."
• Washington Post:  "French President François Hollande decried the massacres across Paris as an “act of war” by the Islamic State, amplifying signals Saturday of a major response from France and its allies after coordinated gunfire and bombings that killed at least 127 people.  Moments later, a message attributed to the Islamic State asserted responsibility for the worst attacks in France since World War II and among of the most deadly terrorist strikes on Western soil since Sept. 11, 2001 ...."
• New York Times:  "President François Hollande called the terrorist attacks that killed 127 people in Paris on Friday night an “act of war,” and blamed the slaughter on the Islamic State.  “It is an act of war that was committed by a terrorist army, a jihadist army, Daesh, against France,” Mr. Hollande said from the Élysée Palace, using an Arabic acronym for the Islamic State. “It is an act of war that was prepared, organized and planned from abroad, with complicity from the inside, which the investigation will help establish.”  Mr. Hollande did not specify what intelligence the authorities had gathered to established the Islamic State’s involvement ...."

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from the National Council of Canadian Muslims:

The National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM), a prominent Muslim civil liberties & advocacy organization, condemns today's horrific and despicable terrorist attacks in Paris, France.

In a statement, the NCCM said:

"Canadians are expressing deep shock and sharing in the immense grief felt around the world today at the tragic events currently unfolding in Paris, France. The NCCM categorically condemns these horrific attacks and all acts of violent extremism and terrorism wherever and whenever they occur.  There is no justification of any kind for such criminal acts.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of France, and with the families of those killed and injured, as well as with the first responders and security officials who will be working to track down those responsible in order to swiftly bring the perpetrators to justice."

The NCCM is an independent, non-partisan, and non-profit grassroots advocacy organization. It is a leading voice for Muslim civic engagement and the promotion of human rights.

 

[opcougar]

Sorry for your loss....but just because I have listed my own personal tragedy, doesn't mean I do not know what it's like to lose loved ones. Criminal code or no criminal code. The guy that behead someone a few years back on a bus in this country....please tell me how that differs from what ISIS is doing, and how he gets to use taxpayers money to plead "insanity"?

I am sure for most Canadians...if another person kills a close member of their family be it by home invasion, accident like the recent one outside Toronto or texting while driving, I doubt most will say lock that person up we are fine with that. Many deep down will want an eye for an eye

Despite your rantings I shall attempt to be civil with you. In fact, I will be civil with you.

I've lost two children, one to a car accident and the other KIA in Afghanistan. I've also lost friends in car accidents and in Afghanistan.

Criminal acts that you have described above are Criminal Code Offences and are prosecuted as such.
ISIS and AQ are clear - they mean to destroy our civilization and replace it with the caliphate.

There is a difference, whether you believe it or not.

 

[opcougar]

I can easily say the same about you...takes one to know one right? NO...I refuse to be part of this "they", "these people", etc that has xenophobic undertones to it. It's like when you listen to racist people speak (I am White Anglican by the way), and they refer to non-Caucasians as "these people" i.e. "these people come over here as immigrants / refugees". To some nincompoops in this country, they see only minorities as refugees / immigrants. I have head and seen such comments made, and it baffles me the ignorance of some people. Many don't even know that it cost thousands of dollars in application fees either through (work, spousal, family) to emigrate to Canada, and you can still get rejected with no refund.

So tarnishing a whole religion is just 'naff' (Brit slang') / crass IMHO.

I'm getting the feeling that you are trolling.

Someone mentioned roman methods.  The Romans had a very simple way of dealing with this kind of thing.  You roll in hard and take out the plague.  All of it.  It might be the only thing they understand.  No nation building, no hearts and minds, no connecting with communities.  You go in and kill the bad guys and get out. Rinse and repeat if they start up again. 

Mr. Campbell offers another solution. Just get out.  Completely and let the Middle East sort itself out.  Secure our borders, invest that money in our own security apparatus and then see what emerges.  If it sucks then see my first suggestion.

There is no one solution.  I see chirping about our cf 18 s all over the net.  Our CF18s are not making a difference.  They clearly didn't prevent this.  Half hearted commitments or symbolic commitments are not going to end this.  You either go all in or not at all and deal with whatever gets created after. And even then.

 

[Remius]

I can easily say the same about you...takes one to know one right? NO...I refuse to be part of this "they", "these people", etc that has xenophobic undertones to it. It's like when you listen to racist people speak (I am White Anglican by the way), and they refer to non-Caucasians as "these people" i.e. "these people come over here as immigrants / refugees". To some nincompoops in this country, they see only minorities as refugees / immigrants. I have head and seen such comments made, and it baffles me the ignorance of some people. Many don't even know that it cost thousands of dollars in application fees either through (work, spousal, family) to emigrate to Canada, and you can still get rejected with no refund.

So tarnishing a whole religion is just 'naff' (Brit slang') / crass IMHO.

No, you are deliberately trying to get people riled up.  Sorry, that's trolling.  Your opinions are all over the map.  If you can't see the difference between a schizophrenic who attacks a guy on a bus or a drunk driver killing someone, and a murderous thug who is ideologically driven to commit murder and then come into a thread challenging people to tell you what the difference is and how our reaction shouldn't be any different then yeah, you are trolling. 

The fact that you you use the classics "I know you are but what am I" line tells me all, I need to know.

 

[opcougar]

So if Prof. Stephen says so, then it is right then? Wow.... what else has the Prof said about the state of the world today, or the recent police brutalities in the US? Let me guess, it's not on his radar

Lots of people, including some reputable scholars, like Prof Stephen M Walt of Harvard, writing in the current issue of Foreign Affairs, call it just that.

 

[Edward Campbell]

So if Prof. Stephen says so, then it is right then? Wow.... what else has the Prof said about the state of the world today, or the recent police brutalities in the US? Let me guess, it's not on his radar

Nope, but you said "I don't think anyone recognizes ISIS as a "state"." and I just pointed out that that's not quite true ...

Anyway, I assume you can use Google and, since Prof Walt has written  a great many articles and books on many, many topics, I guess you can find his views on issues without my help.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There are, already, plenty of "boots on the ground" and we needn't add unwelcome Western ones. We, the US led West, should be selling them weapons and we should be encouraging young Muslim men to join one side or the other, not to take refuge in Canada.

The better course of action is to sell arms and watch from the sidelines, over the course of a generation (or two or three) as the peoples of the regions (North Africa, the Near and Middle East and South West Asia) sort themselves out in their own, bloody, ways.

The problem is, we have far too many interests in the region to completely disengage.  There is also every indication that whatever comes out of doing this could be worse than what is presently occurring.  I personally think what we should do is the following:

1.  Instead of bringing all the refugees to our Western countries, send the military in to Northern Syria to establish a safe zone where we can set up refugee camps that we will man and protect.

2.  Send a special operations task force in to Syria and Iraq to conduct an "unrestricted warfare" campaign against ISIS which leaves no rock unturned and no rat hole unsealed.  No nation building and no holding ground, those tasks can be for whatever emerges out of ISIS ashes, I actually think France's enduring operations in Africa are a pretty good model for just such an operation. 

 

[vonGarvin]

Re: your first point. YES! After all, what people want is to go home.

This leads to number 2. Let Assad do it. With Russian, Iranian and Hezbollah help. We can watch for leakers and nail them.

 

[Altair]

I hope France invokes article 5 of NATO.

Take the bastards out once and for all, boots on the ground, jets in the air, ships off the coast.

If you're going to wage war, do it right.

Is there was ever a time to cash in on goodwill for such a operation, it is now.