Not Covered On "Off Duty" Travel? [Split Topic}

[clk320]

GINge well if you have to travel 1500km they should give you 3 days (500km for each day) CFAO 209-7  And the DCBA ref below and the CF member responsibilities and what the Training school is telling us also at the bottom.

So I don’t agree with the principal of PteMacPooi when he says this; quote
If you are travelling on the queen's dime and she says that she will put you on a plane and get you there in a day and YOU choose not to take it, and instead choose to take your own vehicle, therefore requiring you to be away from your place of duty for more days that she had offered you to take then why should she pay for you to take extra days of travel and be away from work because of a choice you made.  Gone are the swan days...long gone. Unquote. 

Because the CO’s agreed to let you take your PMV and therefore agreed for the person’s hour loss and if the trip is longer than 500km you are entitled to more than one day of travel. 

And this has nothing to do with the clerk.  But if para 3 of that waiver that we are talking about is required THEN I want to see the ref to it in the waiver and not just a blank statement.  Unless it is hidden in the DCBA policy I cannot see any ref to that statement.

Beside VA and DND are separate entities with different budgets one does not govern the other and vice-versa.


DCBA: Travel in CDN with overnight stay;
3. The approving authority authorizes the mode of transportation for the TD of a member based on cost, duration, convenience, safety and practicality. Members who are authorized to utilize a privately owned mode of transportation should confirm with their insurance agent that they are adequately insured, particularly if they carry passengers.
4. When a member is requested to use a PMV on authorized CF business/duty, the high kilometric rate is payable.  The CF member must use the most direct, safe and practical road route and shall claim only the distances necessarily driven on CF business travel.  Alternatively, where a member requests to take a PMV in lieu of the most cost efficient mode (usually air plus taxi/bus) as determined by the CO, the member may be reimbursed high rate of mileage up to the most cost efficient mode of transportation.  Therefore, if a member drove from Cold Lake to Borden, the total reimbursement shall not exceed the equivalent airfare (with the standard advance notice) plus taxi/bus.
5. Before authorization to use PMV is granted, approving authorities shall assess the impact on their budget with regard to the cost effectiveness utilizing other means of transportation, person-hours lost, distance, duration of TD, weather conditions and time of year as factors to be considered.  The decision to allow  members to utilize their PMV while travelling to the destination must be guided by the aforementioned factors.  Notwithstanding, at no time can the maximum reimbursement exceed what it would have cost to send the member by the most economical means of transportation.
6. In the interests of safe driving, if PMV or rental vehicle is used a member shall not normally be expected to drive more than:
a. 250 kilometres after having worked a full day;
b. 350 kilometres after having worked one-half day; or
c. 500 kilometres on any day when the CF member has not worked.
Responsibilities of the CF Member
The CF member shall:
a. become familiar with the provisions of the CFTDTI;
b. obtain advance authorization to travel;
c. complete and submit travel expense claims with necessary supporting documentation as soon as possible after the completion of the travel;
d. be responsible for cancelling reservations as required, safeguarding travel advances and funds provided, and making outstanding remittances promptly; and
e. not seek reimbursement for any travel, meal or benefit provided by a third party or other government agency, ie meals provided as part of a conference.

---------------------
And who better to tell how it is then the training schools

PMC
Private Motor Vehicle (PMC) requests must be made 15 days prior to course start date as a cost comparison must be done IAW CFTDTI.

The bench mark to compare high rate of mileage (Treasury Board link for rates) to CAL/TRAIN over one day, anything within one day travel is compared with Greyhound or other bus lines bus rtn ticket with taxi to and from the members residence to the bus station, and taxi from bus station to the base of training rtn.

For travel over one day one way:

You must obtain a TAN (travel authority number) number by filling in the template or use your unit TAN to get a fare quote from AMEX . Fill in the POMV request comparison form and e-mail to xxxxx. An authorization e-mail will be sent to you and a waiver for the member to sign, as the member waives his financial entitlements by using POMV.

 

[Torlyn]

You are not on the clock (on duty) when you have submitted a valid leave pass.  You are on leave.  And if you are not on duty and you are injured you MAY not be covered by VA, depending on the situation. 

Its from the DCBA.  If you want the ref I will give it to you.

We are on duty 24/7.  Period.  This is why we fill out CF-100's if we're travelling outside the geographical area for a weekend.  The waiver was nonsense.  If you get hurt on travels, provided you have the right forms filled out (and for that extra day, it should have been a CF-100) you ARE covered.  That's why we fill out the paperwork.  Not to get leave, but to protect our asses if something happens.

For the ref, I'd love to see it, please.  If I'm mistaken, please let me know where, and I can let my CTO know how wrong he is.

T

 

[AmmoTech90]

I ran into this travelling from Gagetown to St Jean for ILQ.  It's a crappy policy but it makes fiscal sense.
Having your car at your place of TD is a convience for you, full stop.  If you need transport somewhere duty related while on course it will provided.
So if the drive takes longer than the flight then why should the military provide that extra time because you want to have a car at you place of TD?  From a dollars and cents side of things, they shouldn't.
There is a partial out to this that I encountered.  Because I was couse loaded quite late, less than 14 days notice, the cost of the flight was greater than the cost of paying milage.  But I still only got one day to travel.  So I left on Friday, got there Friday night and spent the weekend there.  No leave pass.  My claim stated a travel day on Friday, so if I had broken down, and I had to travel on Saturday I assume I would be still on duty, not leave.  Another guy leaving from Gagetown, got loaded earlier, went into the OR and they were able to cost a flight that cost less than the milage claim.  He got the cost of the flight.

Doesn't make sense that early planning results in less benefits, doesn't contribute to moral by making it stressful to travel with your own car, but guess its saves a few bucks.

Oh well

D

 

[GINge!]

About the cost of the flight - it figures that when I go in for the claim, we got the absolute lowest fare to Toronto I'd seen in 10 months; $380!! :-\ Most of the time I would be reimbursed around $600 in airfare (plus other fixed expenses), ah well.

I digress,

CLK320, yes, I have 3 days; 1 day duty travel & 2 days weekend leave on a CF 100.

check para 5:

Before authorization to use PMV is granted, approving authorities shall assess the impact on their budget with regard...person-hours lost...as factors to be considered

So, person hours lost is a factor, as well it should be. A CF-100 leave pass goes toward negating that factor when travelling for a longer duration than the CAL equivalent. That being said, the powers that be at CFBG have granted me 1 x short for the return trip (huzzah!) so I haven't had to burn off any annual.  ;D

 

[GINge!]

If you get hurt on travels, provided you have the right forms filled out (and for that extra day, it should have been a CF-100) you ARE covered.  That's why we fill out the paperwork.  Not to get leave, but to protect our asses if something happens.

:

If I am on annual leave, with a correctly filled out CF-100, and I injure myself downhill skiiing, why should DVA cover me?

The injury is not at all attributable to military service, therefore DVA has no obligation.

 

[QV]

I have never heard of this waiver until now.  In my experience when a member requests to travel by POMV and the CO authorizes it, that member is now authorized to travel by POMV and will have full coverage while traveling as he/she is on a military duty while doing said travelling.  The member can only claim to the max amount that the most economical means would have topped out at, but that doesn't have anything to do with whether you are on authorized military duty or not regarding VA coverage. 

 

[Zoomie]

It is true that as members of the Regular Force or PRes on Class B/C callout we are effectively employable at all hours.  We are not, however always on duty.  If I injure myself at home with my nail gun, the DVA will not cover me.  DVA will only make coverage claims for those members of the CF that are hurt while conducting their duties. 
If you are driving somewhere on a claim, you cannot be on leave, you must be working.  Do not accept anything less.  Don't squirrel away your leave days for travel days.  If you do, understand that you are not covered under the DVA...

 

[TCBF]

"24 hours a day 7 days a week unless on authorized leave unquote (p.13).  Despite that it refers to TD response it state a fact.  Your a.. belongs to the crown and they should be protecting it."

- more like the DVA budget belongs to the crown and the more they spend on YOU, the less they have for conferencing and bonuses..

Remember the probs guys had proving their Army sports related injuries were 'service related'?

"But, I'm on the Regimental Hockey Team!"

- Yes but, 'hockey' is not on your EXPRES form...

"But, we don't DO an EXPRES form, we do  a 2X13..."

- Not OUR problem...

"But, in Combat Arms, you HAVE to play hockey if you know how, otherwise, if they find out..."

- Nonsense, no one can FORCE you to play hockey in the Army, now, can they?

;D

Tom

 

[Gunner98]

If your unit and CFPSA at your location have their stuff together - you do have a DND 297 ExPRES form on your Pers File each year, by completeing the 13 km BFT you are granted Exempt status on the DND297.  You should be allowed to complete your own fitness/exercise prescription.  If you are playing on an intersection or rep team you also need a Memo or copy of RO entry put on your pers file signed by the CO that says you are authorized to play that sport, thereby placing you on-duty for practices and games IAW CFAO 50-3.  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/050-03_e.asp.

 

[GINge!]

If you are driving somewhere on a claim, you cannot be on leave, you must be working.  Do not accept anything less.  Don't squirrel away your leave days for travel days.  If you do, understand that you are not covered under the DVA...

The whole point is that when you are driving somewhere on TD, if you choose PMC over CAL, then you only get one day TD and anything over 500km requires extra time & therefore leave.

It's not about whether I accept it or not: if I don't, then I had better get my ass on the airplane or I'm AWL.

Given the choice between using a couple days leave and being stuck in Borden for 11 weeks without a car, I'll take the former.

 

[PteMacPooie]

Sorry if I sounded like I had an attitude.  I had no intention of ticking anyone off.  Perhaps I should choose my words more correctly, I guess perception is reality.

In any case this is going to be a long post.

Here is a question and answer email from DCBA.  It may clear up a few things.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, 16, June, 2003 09:59 AM
Subject: FW: Waiver Issues (URGENT)
Importance: High

Can you review the following and fwd it to DCBA for consideration:

A member from Edmonton will be driving from Edmonton to Ontario on leave (18 Jun - 7 Jul).  On completion of leave, the member will be going to Kingston on course (8 Jul - 26 Aug).  On completion of the course, the member will be going on leave in Ontario and then returning to Edmonton(27 Aug - 6 Sep).  Rather than returning to Edmonton just to fly back to Kingston, the member is requesting authority to travel on a POMV waiver in conjunction with leave each way.

My questions are:

1.  Is the CO obligated to authorize sufficient travel time if he is going to authorize the travel waiver?  IE 7 days travel time(reckoned in calendar days) on each side of the course including 1 day TD benefits each way IAW current waiver guidelines.  ANSWER--No, we are not a travel agency and management (not the employee)  determines  the most cost effective mode of transportation. (we assume airfare) Alternatively we cannot legitimately prevent a mbr from taking real authorized annual leave and thereby taking their personal vehicle to wherever they want. But we as the employer are only obligated to pay the mbr up to the most cost effective mode as determined by management and by giving the mbr the extra day of travel time we exceed what we would have paid the mbr had they gone by the mgt decision: that being airfare. So in this case we can offer the mbr the equivalent airfare plus the equivalent taxi to/from home (on departure to the place of duty) and then to and from home again  (on departure from the course locale)  and not a penny more because this mode (airfare)  is in fact management's determination of the most cost effective and practical means of tn.  The mbr in this case has  elected another mode and  has chosen to take annual leave to make his plans happen but that does not mean that mgt has to pay any more than it's original and correct decision. After all, we are not a travel agency and it is management who determines how to spend it's money,  not the mbr.    If we can make a mbr's plan happen within our original cost estimate then we are all for it but in this case airfare (with a min 14 days advance notice) is say $1000 plus $40 X 4 max for taxis = $1160 versus 7200 km X .43  = $3096 as a start for mileage plus meals, travel time, incidentals and hotel and it clearly makes no sense to send the mbr any other way but airfare.   

2.  If the CO can't or won't authorize the travel time, can the member request leave in conjunction with 1 day travel time each way. If yes, can the CO then authorize the waiver with only 2 days travel time? ANSWER--  No that calculation is dead. You are now comparing two costs to get the mbr from Edmonton to Kingston: A.  allowing a mbr high rate, plus travel time, plus meals and incidentals, plus hotels or B. airfare plus taxis.  My guess is that B wins everytime given the distance involved (3600 KM one way) and if the mbr wishes to refuse that decision they are free to do so but the max cost determination is the max that the employer has to pay.       

3.  If the answer to question 2 is yes; is the waiver calculation based on travel from Edmonton to Kingston and return or from the leave address to Kingston and return to the leave address. ANSWER-- Any travel would be based on the requirements of the CF as we are not concerned with the mbr's leave destination because the CF does not pay for a mbr to travel to a leave destination other than LTA.

To be sure of the concept I have added an old e-mail:

Ref: CFTDTI 18 Nov 02 edition

  A change in policy has just been approved that eliminates the low rate of mileage for TD purposes. (LOW RATE WILL STILL CONTINUE FOR CA, LTA, SLTA, SCA and RTA (former TAA)) and WTB(weekend travel benefits.(None of these aforementioned are designated as TD)  Therefore from the ref, paras 6.12 (4) found on page 17 and 7.12 (4) on page 26 will be amended such that:

when Bloggins requests to use their PMV in lieu of the most effective option, the mbr may be paid at the high rate of mileage up to the most cost efficient mode of transportation.  So from a local point of view if Bloggins wants to drive from Pet to Ottawa (AND THE CO CONCURS) using PMV he may be reimbursed high rate of mileage up to (not to exceed) the cost of the most cost efficient mode of transport as determined by the CO.  So if Ottawa is 180 KM away from Pet it's 180 X 2 X.43.5 = $156.60 for a same day trip.  But the most cost efficient mode is car rental estimated at $42 plus $25 gas plus perhaps mileage from the home to the car rental agency and return (although some rentals do deliver) let's say $15.  That's $82 so the max Bloggins can get is $82, NOT the full $156.60.  We are of course,  obligated to select the most cost efficient mode of transport because our TD budgets are fixed and more importantly we are not receiving new funds as a result of these initiatives therefore the adage of doing less TD with less money will occur. 

If we expand this rationale to para 7.12(4) it becomes even more simple.  If the CO concurs a mbr may request to take their PMV on a longer trip and it is important to note here that the budget OPI would not be affected rather,  the CO would. Why? If the CO agrees to let a mbr take their PMV it is the CO who will lose the mbr for those days spent travelling etc.  The budget OPI is not affected here because the final cost to his/her budget will still always be the most cost efficient option. (certainly budget mgrs will now more easily be able to question/investigate any higher expense claims that stand out on summary sheets from the others) 
 
Bloggins wishes to drive from Petawawa to Gagetown . Let's say 1250 km X .435 X 2 = $1087.50 plus meals ($125 x 2), incidentals (2 X 17.30) and a night's lodgings ($85 X 2) plus incidentals (4 X $17.30) comes to $1611.30.  Obviously charging this to the budget OPI would be unreasonable when the alternative, most cost effective option is considered.  That is,  the 14 day advance fare (which we consider as the minimum reasonable)  from Ottawa to Fredricton $489 plus taxi X 2 ($30 each way) plus the cost of getting from Pet to Ottawa airport return =  let's say $700 max for argument's sake.  Then $700 is all the crown is willing to reimburse the mbr because IAW para 1.1.1 of the Treasury Board Directive 1993 version: " It is the prerogative of the employer to determine whether, when, where, by whom and by what means travel will be undertaken and to select the mode and class of transportation and the accommodation to be used subject to the provisions of this directive" 

It is management's budget and management makes the final determination as to what is the most cost efficient mode of transport IAW CFTDTI provisions.  It is never the employee's decision (civilian or military).  These changes will be incorporated into the next version of the CFTDTI.  This change and the entire CFTDTI will be effective 1 Oct 02 and pers should be utilizing the CFTDTI now.
Capt D. XXXXX
DCBA 3-4(Policy)


Its always a crap shoot when dealing with VA.  Ask anyone who has ever applied for a pension.  Sometimes you are covered, sometimes you are not covered.

As far as references go, I can only give you CFSTG references, we are req to use them, except when Civvies are going on TD, they don't have to sign an acknowledgment of limitations... we have to follow the treasury board rules.



 

 

[GINge!]

I don't think there was ever any doubt as to what the financial entitlements were limited to & how they were calculated.

I see that its as difficult as ever to get a concise accurate answer from DCBA though, to wit your question of:

Is the CO obligated to authorize sufficient travel time if he is going to authorize the travel waiver?

I've read their response three times and can't find an answer, even though I am 99% sure the CO is not obligated to auth travel time, regardless of any financial regulations. The CO may however authorize short (and perhaps even special?) leave so the SM does not have to use annual.

The situation you've presented to DCBA involves a SM taking leave in between TD; that appears to have confused the issue.

It will be interesting to see how DVA rules if & when an SM is injured, while travelling to a place of Duty, but on annual leave.