Not Covered On "Off Duty" Travel? [Split Topic}

[GINge!]

I am waiting for someone to get hurt wearing non-issued kit, and DVA to say "Not ours chum, have you tried suing the manufacturer?   Sure, everyone poo-poos that now, but times change. 

somewhat OT, but...

Times have already changed. I just signed a waiver stating that I understand DVA may not cover any injuries sustained if I am involved in a car accident on travel to a CF course. The rationale being that DND will fly me & give me 1 day of TD, however, since it is a 2-day drive and I have made the personal choice to drive, if I am injured on the non-TD day (ie the Ann, Wknd, Short lve day), then I may not be covered as it is considered non-duty travel.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Don't sign anything like that again **unless you absolutely have to.**

 

[GO!!!]

GINge,

I would just say "no". Why on earth would you sign anything absolving DVA of responsibility for you?

TCBF,

I'd love to see that one duked out in the court of public opinion, especially with our media sensitive military. Besides, DVA can't help me if I run out of ammo and wind up dead, now can they?

Besides, no one is recommending aftermarket helmets or body armour. (at least not yet)

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I've traveled as recently as 2.5 weeks ago and didn't have to sign anything.  This is news to me.

 

[COBRA-6]

I'd love to see that one duked out in the court of public opinion, especially with our media sensitive military. Besides, DVA can't help me if I run out of ammo and wind up dead, now can they?

Besides, no one is recommending aftermarket helmets or body armour. (at least not yet)

What about body armour that offers significantly improved protection, like level IIIA soft armour (no Zylon!), level IV plates, side plates, bicep plates etc??? Again I'd rather have my arm and fight with DVA, than not have it and probably still fight with DVA...

 

[aesop081]

I've traveled as recently as 2.5 weeks ago and didn't have to sign anything.  This is news to me.

I travelled from gagetown to Winnipeg ( 7 days allowed) For course and never  signed anything like that. 

 

[GINge!]

This is a relatively new (or newly enforced) policy. I don't have access to DAODs (might be a DCBA policy?) etc here, so I can't quote the ref. Nor do I understand the intent behind the policy, though I'd like to be enlightened.

It was a surprise for me too. I never thought of not signing it, I think it was a condition of my travelling via PMC & being able to claim CAL equivalent.

When you were travelling to Winnipeg, it might have been on an Attached posting, as such I *think* the rules are different. I was travelling to a week of TD.

The waiver says DVA *may* not cover you, I tend to agree that it would be difficult to prove either way in a BOI or similar forum. Because the trip is 1500km one way, it requires 3 days of travel. I'm not sure how they would determine on which day of travel I am covered, and which two days I am not. What if I drive the 1500 all in one day, on the day that I am covered...do they calculate I have exceeded the daily kilometric rate and void any claim that way?

 

[Cloud Cover]

A **waiver** that you are **forced** to sign is no waiver at all.

 

[clk320]

indeed the only waiver to sign is the request for PMV travel/ waiver of financial entitlements i.e. you agree to the lesser amount.  I never sign any waiver for off-duty travel as soon as you got a lve pass you are covered and even more a CF99.  Remember you are on duty 24/7.  Heck back home I need a lve pass to go outside the 100km range of 14 Wing and if I stay overnight in HFX (1h30hrs away) I definitly need a CF100.  The old CFAO 209-7 still applies haven't found anything else in DAOD's

 

[GINge!]

Next time I'm at work, I'll get a copy of it & transcribe here on Army.ca

 

[aesop081]

Next time I'm at work, I'll get a copy of it & transcribe here on Army.ca

Would definately be interesting to see

 

[clk320]

Indeed interesting to read since The DCBA benefit aide memoire of April 2006.  quote Members of the CF are on duty 24 hours a day 7 days a week unless on authorized leave unquote (p.13).  Despite that it refers to TD response it state a fact.  Your a.. belongs to the crown and they should be protecting it.  So before you sign tell them to show where the policy is written and if a local S.O. then should have refs to other documents higher up.

http://armyonline.kingston.mil.ca/LFCA/143000440021059/Default.asp?Lng=E

From DCBA: CF Temporary Duty Travel Instruction Effective Oct 1 02 and Publication Date: 2006-02-02 and last modify 20 Mar 06. 

http://sjs.mil.ca/acv/pages/cf_td_travel_instr_e.asp#7

 

[GINge!]

Ah, well, here is the rub.

I had to fill out a leave pass to go on duty travel. I understand the CF's logic behind this - why should they loose me for 3 work days travel because I want to use a PMC when they are willing to fly me at a 'cost' of one work day.

So, for my drive I get my one day of authorized travel (which the crown would have paid for anyways) and I put in a weekend leave pass (or Annual if I had to travel during the week) for the other two days.

In case of an accident, would the issue then be one of "was he travelling on his one-day TD allotment, or did this occurr on the weekend leave portion of the journey"?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Utter bullshit.  Your on the clock.  You should be covered.  Leave pass or not.

 

[clk320]

shall be considered to have completed the journey within the following time
frame: CFAO 209-7 para 3 -  So GINge if you say two days of travel that he has to fit in this:

    a.  for a journey of 250 km or less -- one half day;

    b.  for a journey of between 250 and 650 km -- one day; and

    c.  for a journey of more than 650 km --

          (1)  one day for each 500 km, and

          (2)  one additional day, if the distance travelled on the last
              day of the journey is more than 150km but less than 500 km.

And I think this is the form that we are talking about: Found it from WPG site (note a different policy applies to Reservist - they seem not to be covered)

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF LIMITATIONS–
TRAVELING BY PMV AT MEMBERS REQUEST

References:  A.  CBI 209.015 (1) (b)
B.  CBI 209.25
C.  CBI 209.30  
D.  CFAO 209-7 para 3c (2)
E.  CFTDTI Dated 23 Apr 04

1. I,
SN RANK SURNAME & INIT
having been authorized to travel at government expense proceeding on Temporary Duty (TD) or Attached Posting (AP) to , do hereby request to travel by PMV, licence number .

2. I hereby acknowledge the reimbursement of the transportation and traveling expenses, IAW Ref A will be limited to the cost of the most economical method of travel.  I further understand I will be permitted to travel by PMV on TD or AP provided I have sufficient leave to enable this trip to be made safely, utilizing the daily mileage maximum of utilizing one calendar day of authorized leave for each 500 km traveled.  As per ref D, one additional day is required if the distance traveled on the last day is more than 150 km but less than 500km.  Furthermore, I acknowledge that I am limited to one day’s meals and incidental expenses for each direction of travel, irrespective of the length of the journey.

3. I understand by traveling on leave I will not be on duty.  In this respect, a member on leave, who has an accident and suffers a disability, MAY or MAY NOT be eligible for a disability pension (which has to be directly attributable to military service).  It is Veterans Affairs Canada who makes this determination and ultimately decides whether the member is entitled to a disability pension.

4. I have been fully briefed on my entitlements and limitations related to the use of PMV.

Date Members Signature

Date CO’s Signature

Having said para 3 of the said letter does not refer to anything in the CBI and the CFAO and Ref E is outdated by 2 years see below with new policy and previous posted with aide-memoire.  Be careful what you sign and asked for printed references ALWAYS.  DND concern's is how much money they will pay you that all the refs seem to refer to nothing else and of course the CO has to make sure the car is properly insured.

http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&sidecat=26&chapter=209

And also this ref that I checked.
Use of Private Motor Vehicle (PMV) from DGIMT Travel directive 2006-01-10

 

[PteMacPooie]

Utter bullshit.  Your on the clock.  You should be covered.  Leave pass or not.

You are not on the clock (on duty) when you have submitted a valid leave pass.  You are on leave.  And if you are not on duty and you are injured you MAY not be covered by VA, depending on the situation. 

If you are travelling on the queen's dime and she says that she will put you on a plane and get you there in a day and YOU choose not to take it, and instead choose to take your own vehicle, therefore requiring you to be away from your place of duty for more days that she had offered you to take then why should she pay for you to take extra days of travel and be away from work because of a choice you made.  Gone are the swan days...long gone. 

If you want to take your own way, take extra time to travel, then you will be reimbursed as per the offer she originally made to you (most economical means) and the extras and the onus are on you. 

Why should the Canadian tax payer give you 2 extra days off because you want to drive instead of fly, or give you an extra 300$ for mileage over and above what a plane ticket would cost.  Yes you must sign a waiver, in this office anyways, it simply states that you understand what I basically just told you, and if you don't want to sign it thats fine....then you don't go.  Its all about choice...and for god sakes don't try to make the clerk behind the counter pay for your choices.

If you don't understand what the waiver is then it is your obligation to ask to have it explained to you before you sign, and it is my job and obligation to do so.
Its from the DCBA.  If you want the ref I will give it to you.

 

[GINge!]

Thanks CLK320, that is the form I was referring to, particularly para 3.

PteMacPooie, yes you are absolutely correct.

The reason I brought this up is I think it may be difficult to determine at what point the onus or liability for duty travel falls on the CF, and when it falls solely on my shoulders. I don't care about the financial remuneration aspects; a couple days rats is peanuts compared to a lifetime on disability.

I am assuming the following situation:
Friday, Day 1 on TD 0-500km, covered by DVA. Same as if I was injured in a cab on the way to the airport.
Saturday & Sunday, 500-1500km, *may* not be covered by DVA as I am on WKND lve.

My concern with this policy is that some soldiers may interpret it as meaning they have to blast through an entire 1500km trip on their "covered" day. I am certain this not the intent of limitations in the waiver.

 

[aesop081]

You are not on the clock (on duty) when you have submitted a valid leave pass.  You are on leave.  And if you are not on duty and you are injured you MAY not be covered by VA, depending on the situation. 

If you are travelling on the queen's dime and she says that she will put you on a plane and get you there in a day and YOU choose not to take it, and instead choose to take your own vehicle, therefore requiring you to be away from your place of duty for more days that she had offered you to take then why should she pay for you to take extra days of travel and be away from work because of a choice you made.  Gone are the swan days...long gone. 

If you want to take your own way, take extra time to travel, then you will be reimbursed as per the offer she originally made to you (most economical means) and the extras and the onus are on you. 

Why should the Canadian tax payer give you 2 extra days off because you want to drive instead of fly, or give you an extra 300$ for mileage over and above what a plane ticket would cost.  Yes you must sign a waiver, in this office anyways, it simply states that you understand what I basically just told you, and if you don't want to sign it thats fine....then you don't go.  Its all about choice...and for god sakes don't try to make the clerk behind the counter pay for your choices.

If you don't understand what the waiver is then it is your obligation to ask to have it explained to you before you sign, and it is my job and obligation to do so.
Its from the DCBA.  If you want the ref I will give it to you.

You make good points, however i'm going to ask you to fill in your profile before taking that tone with anyone here...just so we know who we are dealing with , experience/training wise.  thanks alot

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I guess since I'm not on the clock when I'm on leave I don't need to come into work if we get bugged out.

 

[GO!!!]

I guess since I'm not on the clock when I'm on leave I don't need to come into work if we get bugged out.

Sweet!!

Does that mean your pension or SDB would be denied if you were bugged out and subsequently killed or injured while that leave pass was still in effect?