New MBT(Leo 2, M1A2, or Challenger 2), new light tank (Stingray), or new DFSV (M8 or MGS)?

[ChopperHead]

How many have you driven/gunned/CC's?

When I drove the Abrams I was quite impressed.

Also spares for that tank are just across a border and, in some cases, already here as Canada makes quite a few components for that machine.

Slim

Well as you more then likely relise I have never driven one. I was just saying that everyone seems to say the Abrams this and Abrams that but IMO better tanks are out there that would be a better fit for Canadian needs. I wasnt saying the M1 sucks or anything if thats what you took it as I was just saying there is better stuff out there.

 

[48Highlander]

Well as you more then likely relise I have never driven one. I was just saying that everyone seems to say the Abrams this and Abrams that but IMO better tanks are out there that would be a better fit for Canadian needs. I wasnt saying the M1 sucks or anything if thats what you took it as I was just saying there is better stuff out there.

Based on.....what?

maybe you're basing your opinion on this:

oh and the show "the Greatest ever" says the Leo2 is the best tank in the world ever.   ;D

If so, I hope you realize that those shows are pretty much completely arbitrary.  After all, they ranked martial arts as the greatest weapon of all time, and the spitfire as the greatest plane.

 

[ChopperHead]

i relise that. I through that in to the post as a sorta joke. but anyway I tried to give some reasons why I thought the Leo2 was better in my first post. I weighed some pros and cons of the 2. while i may not have ever driven either of them I doubt most people posting in this thread have ever crewed an M1 either so I dont see how that matters. Just because i disagree I have to have years of experience driving tanks and whatever else. But someone who also has no experince what so ever can say the M1 is great and we should buy those and nodoby says anything.

Im just a tank enthusiast at the moment but Im applying to become reg Armour this summer.

 

[NL_engineer]

There was a show on Discovery Chanel yesterday that showed the top 10 tanks in the world. On there list the M1A2 was #2, and the Leo 2 #1.

 

[Slim]

There was a show on Discovery Chanel yesterday that showed the top 10 tanks in the world. On there list the M1A2 was #2, and the Leo 2 #1.

Best and best for Canada may be two different things. There is more to it than just buying a bunch of tanks and turning them loose on the troops. You have to consider spares, crew training and a whole host of other issues.

The Abrams supply chain is right across the border and far more accessable than the Leo line of tanks.

 

[big bad john]

Best and best for Canada may be two different things. There is more to it than just buying a bunch of tanks and turning them loose on the troops. You have to consider spares, crew training and a whole host of other issues.

The Abrams supply chain is right across the border and far more accessable than the Leo line of tanks.

Though never having served in an armoured unit IMHO the Challenger 2 is the best MBT in the world today (excuse me while I dust off the flag and play another round of God Save The Queen).  But I would never recommend it to best serve Canadian needs.  The last line in "Slims' " quote says it best, and gives the best reason for recommending the Abrams over the Leopard 2 or the Challenger 2.

 

[ChopperHead]

Best and best for Canada may be two different things. There is more to it than just buying a bunch of tanks and turning them loose on the troops. You have to consider spares, crew training and a whole host of other issues.

The Abrams supply chain is right across the border and far more accessable than the Leo line of tanks.

ya but we already know how to use the Leo's and are familiar with them.
we already have  the supply routes for them. Our technitians already are familiar with the design etc etc.

they are also alot less expensive to operate then the Abrams and for a country with a defense budget the way it is I doubt we could afford to operate Abrams abroad due to massive amount of fuel consumption  then add on general maientance (bad spelling I know) combat damage, break downs etc.
either way it is most likely that if we were to purchase any of tank the parts would end up being manufactured in canada so I dont think It matters much how far away they are.

 

[Slim]

Best and best for Canada may be two different things. There is more to it than just buying a bunch of tanks and turning them loose on the troops. You have to consider spares, crew training and a whole host of other issues.

The Abrams supply chain is right across the border and far more accessable than the Leo line of tanks.

ya but we already know how to use the Leo's and are familiar with them.

The Abrams is a very easy tank to learn and once you've driven/gunned/CC'd one you can pick up others without too much in the way of time taken up. Plus the simulators that are avail for the M1 are very abundant and top notch. As well our army spends allot of time with the US army and plenty of exchanges are constantly going on. Agreements for cross training also already exist. Lots of hurdles cleared away for adopting the M1.

we already have to the supply routes for them

Not nearly as easy as getting parts for the Abrams. Also we cannot manufacture Krause-Moffie parts without a lic here in Canada.

they are also alot less expensive to operate then the Abrams and for a country with a defense budget the way it is I doubt we could afford to operate Abrams abroad due to massive amount of fuel consumption

The Abrams can be equiped with a deisil engine. The current one is not strictly AvGas but multifuel.

then add on general maientance (bad spelling I know) combat damage, break downs etc.

Every tank breaks down!

 

[NL_engineer]

Our guys are trained on the Leo's (I guessing that the newer ones are similar to ours) plus the fuel economy is better on the Leo's. From a cost point of view, our guys (Armored, and EME) are familiar wit the Leo, so that requires less money training wise compared to train them all again for the Abrams. Also the Leo system is built in peaces so you can replace instead of fix.

just my 2 cents

 

[George Wallace]

Our guys are trained on the Leo's (I guessing that the newer ones are similar to ours) plus the fuel economy is better on the Leo's. From a cost point of view, our guys (Armored, and EME) are familiar wit the Leo, so that requires less money training wise compared to train them all again for the Abrams. Also the Leo system is built in peaces so you can replace instead of fix.

Excuse Me?

 

[NL_engineer]

we are currently using the the Leopard C2 aren't we (which is made from the Leopard one right)? I know we have them phased out, but the select few people are qualified on them.

 

[ChopperHead]

why did you delete my post Slim?

I know every tank breaks down I was just saying massive fuel consumtion plus everything else that goes with it etc adds up.

Just so we are clear here Im not saying the abrams is not good. I just happen to like the Leo better. Im sure either one would work flawlessly for us if we ever manage to get a government to buy them. There are pro's and cons for each. I just like Leo better and was just pointing out some reason I think it would be better for Canada. You like the Abrams thats fine man Im not the thought police but i do dissagree and last time I checked I dont live in China, so I can disagree if i want to. you dont have to get so anal,
people can have opions you know.

 

[George Wallace]

It would not be a good idea to buy more Leo 1s.  They are a great 'Light' Tank now, but their parts are probably becoming hard to find. 

If we were to buy Leo 2's, there would be no advantage, in doing so over M1s.  In this case the Armd Corps and RCEME (Don't say it....they will always be RCEME to me) will still have to train on a new vehicle.

Only advantage to getting Leo 2's may be the Deal that could be struck to take some off the hands of a European Power. 

If only the Cdn Gov't wasn't presured by the Liberal Lefties and Greens back in the 1980's to not build a Kraus Maffi plant in Sydney NS.

 

[ChopperHead]

I agree but I still like the Leo better. I dont know about the M1 but Kampfpanzer has many varients of it and could work with us on modifing one to better suit our needs. I think the M1 comes just as is but I could be wrong.

I seriously hope they cancel the MGS or at least relise the flaw in replasing tanks with these "things" and either scrap the project completly or use them for what the are which is to support and fill a niche in an armoured regiment not to "be" the armour regiment.

M1,Leo2,Challager2,Leclerc anything will do nicely and I would not make a single complaint. Hell id rather see us buy some T-80's then this "thing" and we could get those for next to nothing.

 

[ArmyRick]

Chopperhead, if we are going to go MBT again, I seriously think abrams would be our best bet. Two of our close allies use it (US and soon australia). There a billion other reasons, do your research and you will find them

 

[Slim]

why did you delete my post Slim?

I sent an e-mail saying sorry and that it was a mistake.

In the CF I was a tanker, along with several of the others you've been arguing with.

If you want to be respected on these forums you will have to learn that experience goes quite a ways here.

In an above poist I set out a number of factual reasons why the M1 is a better chioce for Canada.

You completely disregarded everything I said (or perhaps didn't read it maybe?) and just repeated your origional thoughts worded differently.

What factual evidence do you have to support your statement?

 

[Infanteer]

WTF OVER?

but IMO better tanks are out there that would be a better fit for Canadian needs.

What are Canadian needs?  What qualitative and quantitative measurements are you basing your opinion on?

I wasnt saying the M1 sucks or anything if thats what you took it as I was just saying there is better stuff out there.

...well, considering you just said it "isn't that good", you'll have to forgive us for thinking you did.  Anyways, I'm curious to know how you know there is better stuff out there.  Did you go over the models in your bedroom with a magnifying glass?

I think you need to do a little less posting and a little more reading.  Here is a homework project for you - think about when a deployed Canadian force is most likely to use a MBT.  Consider this in both tactical and strategic terms.  You should probably factor in the recent Aussie purchase of new MBTs since the scenarios faced by our militaries are similar in size, scope and probability.  Considering the above, I want to see a 500 word essay for which you will support a logical conclusion on what the "best off" for Canada is.  Until we see this (submit it to Slim and George Wallace), spare us and quit posting your "expertise"....

 

[big bad john]

  Considering the above, I want to see a 500 word essay for which you will support a logical conclusion on what the "best off" for Canada is.  Until we see this (submit it to Slim and George Wallace), spare us and quit posting your "expertise"....

This is something IMHO that should be done much more often. Thanks for doing it!

 

[ChopperHead]

I never said I had any expertise, in fact I said I have no experince. I just happen to like the Leo better thats all. like George said both are eqully matched. I tried to give a few reasons why I happen to like the Leo better thats all it's just my opinoin. Im sure you have an opinion on certain things that you have no experience with, that doesnt make you and idiot.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Strictly as a personal opinion, I like the Leo 2 better than the M1. 

Again, personally, I am more comfortable in the Leo.  Perhaps its because the C2 and the Leo2 share the same gunner's FCS (the commander independent system, is of course, completely new...), or perhaps it's just German engineering, but I find the ergonomics better (in all positions, with the possible exception of the driver) in the Leo than the Abrams.

Now, trying to put personal feelings aside, and looking at matters as objectively as I can....both tanks are relatively easy to train on, both being designed with a conscript army in mind.  Both tanks have an excellent FCS, although other sources give a very slight edge to the Leo's FCS.  The turbine is a logistical nightmare, requiring very expensive rebuilds more often than the MTU diesel, plus it devours much more fuel.  The logistical spare parts tail, as was previously pointed out, is much shorter (and possibly much cheaper) with the M1. 

The Americans successfully trialled a M1A1 with the Leo's diesel engine.  That it was not part of the M1's A2 upgrade was simply because the diesel is not American. 

Perhaps the best trade off for Canada, assuming a MBT buy, would be buying surplus M1A1, rebuilt with the MTU power pack?