New flying suits & jackets going on trial

[Loachman]

As in; no other country is stupid enough to put pen pockets on their shins!

Au contraire - none other is bright enough.

I know that Tutors have ejection seat handles on the side: I was asking how a pen pocket on a pilot's sleeve could rip their arm off in an ejection (as in how could they get low enough in the seat for it to get caught on the lip of the cockpit).

It didn't, but there was an ejection in the eighties or early nineties where a Tutor pilot's sleeve-born pens did catch and injury resulted. All sleeve pen pockets (these were only on the flying jackets and never the flying suits themselves, except for the Tac Hel shirts) were ordered sewn shut - including those of helicopter and other non-ejection-seat aircrew - as a result and the next batch of jackets and Tac Hel shirts came without them.

I was replying to CDN Aviator's comment about how he had never had a problem with them.  I HAVE had problems with them, and we do different jobs.

Good, and thank-you very much for recognizing that last bit. Now, quit whining about something that many others, including those of us with way more experience than you LIKE and USE regularly, and don't use them yourself.

Great, I'm happy for you: I am well aware of other pilots (perhaps not on Army.ca) that find the placement a PITA.

Then tell them to stop whining and stop using them too.

I'm complaining about the fact that if I use my pen pockets, my pens will freeze in these temperatures.

Then find another place, and stop whining.

And on top of that the placement is an ergonomic PITA: I can't figure out why they would do it ...

The placement is great for a lot of us, which is precisely why they put them there.

but it's not that big of a deal.

Then why are you whining about it so much?

So far there's been exactly two arguments about why they are better on the arms, neither of which is terribly convincing (1, because of some undisclosed environments where it is 'better', and 2, because of a safety issue that AFAIK no longer exists; pretty much every other air force in the world doesn't seem to share these concerns),

Then fill out a UCR suggesting that pen pockets be put back on the sleeves, where pens can freeze just as easily, and while you're waiting, stop whining.

Personally, I thought that ordering universal removal of these was dumb but I never used them myself, as I found that particular placement to be unsuitable for me. I just didn't whine about it, but used the much handier leg pockets.

on my kneeboard (for example) is *far* more convenient.

Kneeboards don't work well in helicopters - too much interference betwixt cyclic and collective, and it's just one more piece of junk to have to carry out to the aircraft along with everything else that frequently has to be carried out.

I've never heard anyone complain about them on their sleeves

Possibly because they can't carry them there anyway.

But seriously, I never heard any such complaints when such pockets did exist on sleeves. Not everybody found them useful, but we didn't whine about them being there.

(even forearm would work much better).

That had occurred to me several years ago, but as I was content with the very useful leg pockets, I didn't bother pursuing the idea.

And when was the last time you did a walkaround at -22 (or -30 for that matter)?

I've done a few off and on over one year shy of three decades and around four thousand hours of military flying, a bunch of which consisted of living out in temperatures colder than that during exercises, and you haven't even come close, laddybuck, so quit whining and don't use the ****ing pen pockets on your legs.

I don't mean to give the impression that it's keeping me up at night,

Could have fooled me...

it's just that I find it silly to use design that seems functional,

Then don't use them, and quit whining.

but has proven on more than one occasion (as in me yesterday a little before I wrote that post) to be worse than useless!

Then don't use them, and quit whining. They work fine for many of us.

This is going nowhere: it's not a safety concern, but a pen pocket that, if one uses it, renders the pen useless IS worse than useless, in my book.  That's all.

Then don't use them, and quit whining. They work fine for many of us.

In your job, you sit in the back of an aircraft, with plenty of room to have pens wherever you possible want, any chart or paper you want and even probably a table to write on.

And he wears a flying suit, too - so what's your point? He likes the leg pen pockets. So do I, and thousands of other aircrew over several decades. We aren't all spoiled wannabe fighter pukes with inflated egos, we're well beyond the student phase of our flying careers, and we don't whine over, and over, and over again.

On ejection seat aircrafts, you don't have all that confort.

I didn't in the Kiowa, either, and we couldn't use our heaters while flying tactically in the winter because the machine was underpowered. We'd often spend much longer in our cockpits than you're likely to, and couldn't trim the machine up and take our hands off of the controls either. We didn't whine about it, though. Those lower leg pen pockets sure came in handy.

The Griffon has a little more room, but those lower leg pen pockets still sure come in handy.

On ejection seat aircrafts, you don't have all that confort.

Spare me. Spend some time in Tac Hel. I'm sure that the Sea King or SAR community put up with far more than you, and with out whining about it.

With the bunny pants, the LPSV, the harness, the winter jacket, even for a small guy like me, there isn't much room to move around.

And you think that you're the only one who has to suffer like that? Poor baby...

You haven't tried flying with body armour or a gas mask either, I'll wager.

Reaching for a pen down is actually, hard!!

I seem to manage to do so quite easily. It takes less effort to reach across to an opposite sleeve, especially with body armour or a gas mask on.

Flight suits have to accomodate every community, every jobs.  We can't possibly have different flight suits for every trade/airframe.

Yes, so the leg pockets stay. Don't like 'em, don't use 'em. Just stop whining about them.

Having a pen on the arms would make my life a little easier.

Fine. You seem to be getting that on the new flying suits anyway. If it doesn't happen, fill out a UCR each and request that they be added. In the mean time, stop whining.

I'm an extremely patient person, but this whining from two people with very litttle flying experience, and none operationally at all, has put my blood pressure up just a tad.

And yes, Strike, the placement of the rank insignia is absolutely stupid. It does give me an excuse to stare at your chest and others, though.

There's a survey section on the CEMS site. Put your comments there, and state that you feel extremely uncomfortable with males of all ranks and trades leering at your chest. If common sense won't prevail with rank placement, perhaps the harassment aspect will.

 

[Strike]

:rofl:

It's a good thing I put my glass of water down prior to reading that!

Now...go clean up your post mister!  It's a mess! ;D

 

[Loachman]

Done, finally, after repeat efforts.

Without whining either...

 

[SupersonicMax]

Loachman, I'm not whinning.  I couldn't care less if we kept the leg pen holders (actually, I wish they kept them for summer flying.  I love them in the summer).  But I would benefit from the arms pen holders.  My comments were pointed to the Navs/AESOPS/some multi engines aircrew (CND Aviator's comments).  Definately not helos, since you guys have your own flight suits and yes, you do have a small cockpit. I should have had specified that, my bad.

There is a time for ideas to flow back and forth and then there is a time for orders.    I wonder if your instructor would hold the same opionion of your cross country flight - maybe he's in the instructor lounge saying "Wow, that Max is sharp, he taught me so much, because the Canadian government put me behind the controls of a multimillion dollar flying machine without making sure I knew all the procedures... lucky me!"

I probably had more experience than he had in a Canadian Instrument Flying Rules (IFR) environment (I did have some experience prior to this course).  He didn't have any Canadian IFR ground school.  Obviously, it's all smaller stuff but he questionned me a few times on smaller stuff, which I was glad to answer.  But that's not the point...  BTW, there is NO WAY to know everything...

Change of subject, anything new about this rank thing?

Max

 

[Michael OLeary]

Loachman, I'm not whinning. 

Did you mean "winning" or "whining"?

 

[dapaterson]

... we'd be kipped out in the hides or holding hands and singing kum-by-ya...

Dammit!  CSA 105 has broken the Log branch code!

 

[aesop081]

  My comments were pointed to the Navs/AESOPS/some multi engines aircrew (CND Aviator's comments). 

You should come visit some time. I dont have a whole lot of room to work. Much less than you seem to think and BTW, its not much bigger than one of you ejection seat aircraft cockpit. With a Screen, big ass keyboard, joystick, 2 laptops, maps and charts, checklist, mission logs, all sorts of cables connecting everything.......i'm pretty damned cramped so spare me the lessons on how bad you have it.

Forgot to add that i also usualy have a navigator behind me who thinks its funny to drop his guts every 2 seconds........

 

[Strike]

Max and Aidan,

Flightsuits are for aircrew.  That means Navs, FEs, AESOPs, Mission Specialists (they are Army types), and sometimes even ATC and techs.  So ALL of their opinions on the flight suit are relevant.  Just because your aircraft doesn't carry a non-pilot type doesn't mean the others don't.  In fact, the majority of aircraft in the CF are manned by multiple trades.

 

[armyvern]

Dammit!  CSA 105 has broken the Log branch code!

He must have been spying on us all last Friday ...  >

 

[Ping Monkey]

Way to go DuffMan!  See what you started, an entire thread on the placement of the pen holders.

Had I known this topic was going to generate such a heated debate I would have originally made the post asking "so what's the deal with those leg pen pockets?"  But as for that issue I think we can all agree on one thing... use them... or don't... nobody's going to get grief for NOT having a pen, pencil, crayon or spork in their leg pen pockets.

If people feel so strongly (one way or the other) perhaps they should contact CEMS or draft a UCR to ensure their suggestions are received BEFORE the trial period ends and we're stuck with a flightsuit that has pen pocket/rank placement where we don't want them.
:deadhorse:

And, by the trial design, it appears that somebody on the design team likes the idea of having pen holders on the sleeves (with covers to prevent inadvertent snags on equipment) and on the legs.  So now you get a choice!

Frankly, I'm more nervous about the possibility that these flightsuits might one day be produced in cadpat....


Begin pro/anti-cadpat rants now....
:argument:

 

[armyvern]

Frankly, I'm more nervous about the possibility that these flightsuits might one day be produced in cadpat....
Begin pro/anti-cadpat rants now.... :argument:

Geez, even I can do that!!

Plenty of helo flyers and air/ground crew around these parts wearing flight suits every day as part of their jobs who'd blend in much better with their work enviornment and their driveable beast if they were in a cadpat flightsuit.

I think it was said earlier ... not everyone is fast air.

 

[Roy Harding]

So, I'm just a simple Army guy - and I've only skimmed this thread - but I've got a question.

Why not put the pen pockets on BOTH the sleeve and the leg (hell - BOTH sleeves and BOTH legs (for lefties), and while we're at it - on the chest (where I like mine)) - and then you can use the one that you like/is appropriate to your load station?

I'm probably missing something obvious here - but I don't think so.

 

[benny88]

Why not put the pen pockets on BOTH the sleeve and the leg...
I'm probably missing something obvious here - but I don't think so.

Got your back:

Just so that we can all sleep tonight - the new designed flying suits have pen pockets on the legs (where they currently are) and on the arm pockets.

I think it was said earlier ... not everyone is fast air.

  Even fast air may need the CADPAT should (knock on wood) they be forced to bail out in a tactical situation. I realize it's (especially right now) unlikely, and flame me all you want, but it's better to have and not need than need and not have.
    There was a debate in a BSERE thread a few days ago, where people argued about wearing flight suits or CADPAT, with a lot of "train how you fight" going on, which CADPAT flight suits could solve nicely.
 

 

[Roy Harding]

Got your back:


...
 

Thank you.

As I said - I only skimmed this thread (and therefore should have kept my mouth shut), but having had that particular quote pointed out to me, I've got to ask - what's all the shootin' about?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Max and Aidan,

Flightsuits are for aircrew.  That means Navs, FEs, AESOPs, Mission Specialists (they are Army types), and sometimes even ATC and techs.  So ALL of their opinions on the flight suit are relevant.  Just because your aircraft doesn't carry a non-pilot type doesn't mean the others don't.  In fact, the majority of aircraft in the CF are manned by multiple trades.

I agree 100%.  I'm just debating the utility of the pen holders on the arms.  Not the uselessness of those on the legs.

Max

 

[Strike]

Roy,

Although pen holders on the chest may seem like a good idea for those eaternally grounded  ;D let me put it in a context you would understand.  How would you get to your pen in your chest pocket while wearing armour and a TV?  Between an LPSV, cooling suit, armour, and harness, it would be a feat of doublejointedness.

The one thing I'm happy to see is that the clips will remain on both legs.  There was some talk they were going to go the way of the two-piece and only have them on one leg.  That's fine when you're in the same seat every day, but in the MH and TH worlds (don't know about the others, so won't speculate) captains and co-joes switch sides regularly.

 

[benny88]

Strike,

    Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by clips. On the thighs for kneeboards?

 

[Strike]

As in clips on thighs to hold paper, maps, your touque, whatever.  Never used it in conjunction with a knee board though.

 

[Roy Harding]

Roy,

Although pen holders on the chest may seem like a good idea for those eaternally grounded  ;D let me put it in a context you would understand.  How would you get to your pen in your chest pocket while wearing armour and a TV?  Between an LPSV, cooling suit, armour, and harness, it would be a feat of doublejointedness.

The one thing I'm happy to see is that the clips will remain on both legs.  There was some talk they were going to go the way of the two-piece and only have them on one leg.  That's fine when you're in the same seat every day, but in the MH and TH worlds (don't know about the others, so won't speculate) captains and co-joes switch sides regularly.

Fair enough - I think I said I was WAY outside my lane here (hey - I make furniture - my pencil, marking knife, six inch rule, and calculator are carried in chest pockets on my APRON).

But - the point I was (poorly) trying to make is why not have the pen holders in all four positions (both legs, both arms) - then the choice of which ones to use is up to the individual?

Edited to add:  A quick review of the thread reveals that I DIDN'T state that I was outside my lane.  I should have - because I am.  Sorry.

 

[Sf2]

Would someone please explain to me how having these god forsaken sleeve holders prevents your pen from freezing??

I missed the boat on that one.....