New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Kirkhill]

Also, isn't the RFA a civilian organization?

It is managed by the RN and/or the MOD but is a separate entity.  I seem to recall reading/hearing that many of the RFA crew were foreign nationals.

I don't think the same rules apply to them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Some real on the ground effects, they have been in contact with our office for approvals to construct the new facilities


Seaspan kicked off a $200-million upgrade to its North Vancouver shipyard Friday, saying that the redevelopment will launch the rebirth of the West Coast shipbuilding industry.

The shipyard infrastructure investment marks the first major expenditure in B.C. related to the federal National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy. Seaspan landed the $8-billion federal procurement contract a year ago Friday.

Seaspan will build seven vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard and Royal Canadian Navy under the contract.

Seaspan president Jonathan Whitworth said the construction project alone will require 150 workers. Seaspan expects the actual shipbuilding project to swell the employment ranks at the North Vancouver site from 200 to 1,200 by 2016, providing stable work over the next decade for shipbuilders on the North Shore.

At a groundbreaking ceremony at the shipyard, called Vancouver Shipyard, Whitworth described the contract as "a true game-changer for the shipbuilding industry."

The redeveloped shipyard, he said, "will once again build large complex vessels for the federal government," as well as other future non-government shipbuilding projects. Future BC Ferries could be built at the shipyard, he said - the federal shipbuilding strategy means B.C. will have the capacity to do it.

"I do believe there is going to be capacity either at Vancouver Shipyards, Victoria Shipyards or one of our competitors that can actually build the future BC Ferries vessels."

Naomi Yamamoto, North Vancouver-Lonsdale MLA and B.C. minister of state for small business, said the issue of building more ferries now is hypothetical, but if the industry can prove it is competitive, "we may see BC Ferries built in British Columbia."

Seaspan intends to build four new buildings and install an 85-metre tall gantry at Vancouver Shipyard. Construction begins right away and is expected to be completed by 2015. It will require a million kilograms of steel and 1,000 truckloads of concrete, Whitworth said. About $20 million of the investment is in new state-of-the art tools for workers, he noted.

Although construction of the largest vessels under the federal contract will not begin until 2016, Whitworth said construction on two smaller vessels can begin in the second half of 2013. Seaspan is to build three offshore fisheries science vessels, one offshore oceanographic science vessel, one polar icebreaker, and two joint support ships.

The $8-billion Seaspan contract is part of a $33-billion, 20-year federal shipbuilding program. The largest contract, for $25 billion, went to Irving Shipbuilding of Nova Scotia.

Rona Ambrose, federal minister of public works and government services, said the federal procurement program was designed to ensure long-term development of the shipbuilding industry in Canada.

"Seaspan's $200-million investment in Vancouver Shipyards to make it a world-class shipbuilding centre of excellence is proof that the shipbuilding industry is back to stay in Canada," Ambrose said.

Whitworth said Seaspan is confident it can find enough skilled workers for the reconstruction job and for the shipbuilding program without looking outside the country. However, they are advertising outside of Canada for some of the highly skilled jobs.

"When you don't build large, complex vessels in British Columbia for 30 years, a lot of that professional skilled labour has either passed on, retired, or no longer lives here. So for positions like engineers, project managers, naval architects, those jobs are currently unfilled here because we don't have Canadians capable of filling them." But for the trades, he said, Seaspan is getting feedback from people working in the Alberta oilsands or other isolated mega-projects who want to come to Vancouver.

Percy Darbyson, president of local 506 of the Allied Shipbuilders Union, said the union is also hearing from trades-people who left the province to work elsewhere.

"Today is a great day to get the infrastructure started. Now we are looking forward to the build," he said. "Shipbuilding would have been gone without the program. They were going to close down this facility. The 200 guys who are here would have been gone."

ghamilton@vancouversun.com



Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Seaspan+launches+million+shipyard+upgrade/7421454/story.html#ixzz2A8ZL5iES

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bump with an update from MERX on one of the Big Honkin' Ship projects.....

.... The purpose of this Letter of Interest (LOI) is to invite private sector firms and industry associations interested in the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) Project to:

a.    attend the CSC Industry Engagement Kick-Off Session on Nov. 15, 2012; and/or

b.    submit written responses to Canada's questions soliciting industry recommendations on the procurement approach which will lead to an implementation contract or contracts for combat ships.

This LOI is neither a call for Tenders nor a Request for Proposal (RFP). No agreement or contract will be entered into, with any person or entity, based on this LOI. The issuance of this LOI is not to be considered in any way a commitment by the Government of Canada or as authority to potential participants to undertake any work, which could be charged to Canada. This LOI is not to be considered as a commitment to issue an RFP or award contract(s) for this Project.

(....)

2.    BACKGROUND

The Canada First Defence Strategy (CFDS) states the requirement "to replace Canada's destroyers and frigates to ensure that the Canadian Forces can continue to monitor and defend Canadian waters and make significant contributions to international naval operations." The Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) Project has been created to deliver the combat ships to meet this requirement.

Canada's National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy (NSPS) is the program through which Canada is rebuilding the fleets of the Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Coast Guard.

Our intent is that the ships which comprise the CSC will consist of two variants - the first of these being the Area Air Defence and Task Group Command and Control variant and the second being the General Purpose variant.

Irving Shipbuilding Inc. is the NSPS selected shipyard. Information on the NSPS can be found at:
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/sam-mps/snacn-nsps-eng.html

A project web site has been created to provide information to industry regarding the CSC PROJECT.

The address of this web site is:
http://www.materiel.forces.gc.ca/en/cscp.page

A little more detail in the MERX package (7 page PDF) here.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

BHS is actually a specific platform first mentioned by then-CDS General Hiller and is still on the books. It is sort of intended as a RO-RO/AOR/Everything vessel. This is actually the 'official' announcement of a project already on the books originally under the CADRE (Canadian Air Defence...???), then SCSC (Single Class Surface Combatant), then DR (Destroyer Replacement) monickers. I don't believe any of those made it as far as the CSC program is now.  Good to see actually. It is what I spent my 20-month 'sentence' in Ottawa working on until the end of July!!!
There is not much yet on the website but for those on the DIN, I think the PMO has quite a bit as well as DMRS 7.

 

[AlexanderM]

I can't wait to see some designs! How many vls cells for the destroyers, how many for the frigates?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I can't wait to see some designs! How many vls cells for the destroyers, how many for the frigates?

Considering no designs have been picked yet then the question becomes premature...

 

[AlexanderM]

There is not much yet on the website but for those on the DIN, I think the PMO has quite a bit as well as DMRS 7.

I'm under the impression that there are some initial designs here, but most of us can't see them, don't have access.

 

[ArmyRick]

Down boy, settle!  :tsktsk: If there are designs at this stage, YOU WILL know without a doubt if you are authorized or not to see said designs.

 

[FutureSailor]

Basically to summarize the Minister of National Defence released a statement on the conservative's proposed new ship building strategy.

Summary: $35B proposed to create two national ship yards to build military and civilian government vessels over the next 30 years, with consideration to eliminate boom-bust cycles.

Linkage:
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2010/06/03/mackay-shipbuilding-cansec.html

What do you guys think?  I think it is a step in the right direction. Let the debate begin...  >

I also think it is a wonderful idea. Although building offshore is more cost-effective, it stimulates OUR economy in a direct way (something the shipyards, especially in Halifax, need and have been waiting for).

It's about time we receive some new ships and this is a step in the right direction. But, we'll see..

 

[The Bread Guy]

..... on Canadian Surface Combatant "industry engagement", via the PWGSC Info-machine:

The Honourable Rona Ambrose, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for Status of Women, is pleased to announce an industry engagement session for the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) Project. The CSC is one of the projects of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy (NSPS) and is intended to provide Canada with modern replacements for the Royal Canadian Navy’s existing fleet of destroyers and frigates.

Posted on MERX, the Government of Canada’s electronic tendering service, from October 26 to November 7, the Letter of Interest invited industry to participate in initial discussions that will ultimately lead to decisions on the procurement strategy which will result in the delivery of CSC ships.

“Engaging industry at the early stages of complex procurement such as the Canadian surface combatant is part of our smart procurement approach and the new way forward,” said Minister Ambrose. “In working closely with industry, we ensure best value for Canadian taxpayers while providing the Canadian Armed Forces with the equipment and capability that they need to do the work we ask of them.”

“Our Government is committed to working closely with the Canadian marine industry as we build a new fleet of Canadian Coast Guard vessels and a new fleet of ships for the Royal Canadian Navy,” said the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence. “Our Government’s investment will create over 10 000 jobs in our communities and will stimulate the regional economy for decades to come.”

“Our Government is taking a measured approach to setting the course for the Canadian Surface Combatants, and consulting industry early on is a way of ensuring that we set the course correctly,” said the Honourable Bernard Valcourt, Associate Minister of National Defence, Minister of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency) (La Francophonie). “These ships will ensure that, into the future, our Canadian Armed Forces can keep effectively defending Canada and North America, contributing to international peace and security, and continuing Canada’s proud tradition of defending our interests as a maritime nation.” ....

 

[Navy_Pete]

CSC is still probably almost a decade from hitting the water.

They are still developing the requirements for the ships, which eventually becomes the basis for the design.  In theory though in modern warship design you design the hull, powerplant etc and leave room for whatever type of weapons/sensors you are looking at outfitting them with, then once you start cutting steel you actually pick what you want, as the modern systems are designed to be plug and play.

So as long as you have a rough idea of size, weight, power requirements etc, if you leave the actual decision on picking the gear until as late as you can, you'll end up with an actual modern warship, as opposed to one with new obsolete gear that's a decade behind when it gets turned on.

Brits and Americans both learned that the hard way, and is why they build ships in batches, so they refine the design after they get a few built and learn what works well and what doesn't, then fix it before they build the next batch.  Kind of like automakers, where they tweak the cars every year and once a decade do a full redesign.

In general though, there currently is no warship building industry in Canada, as they all got poached after the frigates were done, so industry needs to redevelop that first, so it is going  to take a while to get this up and running.  AOPs should be first through the gates, followed by JSS, then eventually CSC, with various other CG ships etc interspersed in there as well.  Hopefully though we end up with a good desing that they can in turn license to other countries; the more ships out there with the same basic design the better off we are for long term support of the unsexy things like valves, motors, etc that are critical to get from point A-B and not always easy to replace with a similar fit-form-funciton part.

 

[AlexanderM]

They are still developing the requirements for the ships, which eventually becomes the basis for the design.  In theory though in modern warship design you design the hull, powerplant etc and leave room for whatever type of weapons/sensors you are looking at outfitting them with, then once you start cutting steel you actually pick what you want, as the modern systems are designed to be plug and play.

Exactly!  No need to re-invent the wheel, just pick the best available systems, as close to installation as possible.  Design the ships so they are very upgrabable and it's all good.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

One of the common issues I have heard from ship designers and users is reduntant cable retention. Many of the older designs had problems from to much cable left over from old equipment because it was to difficult to remove it. I have seen some staggering weight figures. Not to mention fire and water ingress issues associated with semi-forgotten cable runs.

 

[AlexanderM]

Your talking about upgrades??  I expect our new ships will be loaded with fibre optics, but I'm not certain.

To my knowledge, the Dutch are currently working on some major upgrades for the Smart-L/APAR systems.  I've read that Smart-L will have ballistic missle detection at up to 2000km, and APAR will have a range of 500km, but it is hard to find information.  Also, in recent exercises, it seems that the Smart-L detected F22 Raptors at 80-90km range, and this is before upgrade.  From what I've read most of the upgrades to these systems is software. 

Now, Canada is already a partner in APAR, so if we become a partner in Smart-L, we just upgrade the systems as they become available, just go with the flow.  I expect that our people are keeping a close eye on the Dutch, and if the upgrades work we will be happily using those systems, which is what I expect.  I doubt we would need to upgrade the vls systems, as they already can accomodate the SM3, which gives ballistic missle defence.  So, it's just a matter of buying better missles as they become available.

I hope they build in room for AIP systems below decks, which I doubt they will, and room on the mast for installation of laser systems, which can't be that far off.  Power the lasers with the AIP, just leave room for it all now, no need to install anything.

Main future threats will be super-sonic antiship missles, which will likely eventually be stealthy and supercavitation torpedoes.  Missles will be dealth with through upgrades to radar and defensive missle systems, also eventually perhaps lasers.  The supercavitation torpedoes, as they develop greater range, could be a problem.


OK, here it says 1000km for Smart-L, but I have also read double this.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_85153.htm


Here is another one.  I expect our Destroyers to have this system.

http://thalesalerts.com/2012/Edition%201/Thales%20to%20upgrade%20SMART-L%20radar%20for%20BMD.doc/


I know this is Wiki, but if you look under "Modernizing" you will see comments attributed to the Dutch minister, regarding the range of the systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn_class_frigate


This article comments on the fact that Canada and the Netherlands have been working together on these systems, so what is currently being prepared for their ships may also be preparation for ours.

http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/57/Articles/12-18.pdf

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

To my knowledge, the Dutch are currently working on some major upgrades for the Smart-L/APAR systems.

If only they would work on "gear that works".

 

[jollyjacktar]

If only they would work on "gear that works".

No shit.

 

[AlexanderM]

Our people are so close to it that they'll know if it works or not.  I am aware of some glitches, like cooling problems with the APAR, which I believe have been solved.  There are always bugs to work out of new systems, just look at the F35.

I remember when they came out with the M1A1 Tank, there were articles that said it was a disaster, yet it changed the battlefield for tank crews.  When I went through Cornwallis the life expentancy of a tank crew was something like 17 minutes, the the M1 made the battlefield survivable.  Yet I remember reading it was crap, go figure.

 

[Kirkhill]

.....

I hope they build in room for AIP systems below decks, which I doubt they will, and room on the mast for installation of laser systems, which can't be that far off.  Power the lasers with the AIP, just leave room for it all now, no need to install anything....

Leave that space tween decks but above the waterline and you can roll-on / roll-off your new AIP-APU  and in the mean time you can offer lifts to itinerant infanteers. 

 

[AlexanderM]

OK!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I am more than a little unclear as to why anyone thinks we need Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) on a surface ship?  Air is free.  And if you want lots of electricity quickly and for (relatively) little weight, gas turbines are the answer.