NCM's Not Professionals?? Split from-Supply Tech Ettiquette

[George Wallace]

That WO was from PEI, right?

 

[x-zipperhead]

He was indeed.  And a big nascar fan.  Loved Dale Ernhardt (sp?)

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

And did this WO dislike the Strathconas and was one of his favourite exclamations "JAYSUS!" ?

 

[George Wallace]

He hasn't been on the site for a while......wonder if he is making some more 'bathtub gin' or gone huntin?  ................................or both?

 

[Kat Stevens]

"Is a Cpl a Pro? He's developing an expertise in his field - he's getting there"


  Well, I beg to differ.  Everyone else on your list are conduits of the commanders intent.  The Cpl and the Pte are the ones who put it into practice.  I therefore submit that at a higher rank, you are somewhat less professional, and more clerical.  I was on the tools and machines every day of my career, I would like to think I wasn't a beginner, or developing.  As a Cpl, I would put my AEV/AVLB practical knowledge up against anyone else's, rank notwithstanding.  Professionals get their hands dirty too, y'know.

 

[geo]

Hey Kat,

Yeah - as I stated at the start, I might have oversimplified beyond the bounds of reason (for the Officers ) but
You are correct, the Cpl is the one who is expected to do all the wondrous things we ask him to perform. 

(as time progresses (in any rank) you learn more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing - and then they promote you)

 

[x-zipperhead]

And did this WO dislike the Strathconas and was one of his favourite exclamations "JAYSUS!" ?

He hasn't been on the site for a while......wonder if he is making some more 'bathtub gin' or gone huntin?  ................................or both?

I believe we have his identity nailed down.  I also loved his welcoming speech to the new troopers coming to his troop fresh out of Battle School, "You're all f***ing a**holes until proven otherwise, understand?" ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

He hasn't been on the site for a while......wonder if he is making some more 'bathtub gin' or gone huntin?  ................................or both?

The still is in the basement closet and he's back from hunting.

 

[GO!!!]

Similarly, if a Pl or Coy Comd has 5 minutes to scarf down grub in between planning sessions, going to orders, whatever, and he either eats when he can or waits until all the troops eat, do you want him making the plan while he is distracted by a hungry belly?

To me, this is what professionalism is - the ability to perform to a high standard even under conditions of extreme hardship and duress.

Furthermore, the adage used in my unit is "My weapons, my kit, myself" in reference to the priority of work - given that the work is different, could a Pte. then, by extension, justify his nap and ration prior to cleaning his rifle on the basis that it could be a shoddy job if he was not well rested?

I can think of a few very professional NCOs that would heartily disagree.

I would submit that a similar set of rules exist for both officers and NCMs, that only the context that they are applied differ.

Do you want your commander so sleep deprived because he or she "did their part on sentry and radio watch and laid out their own kit, not making the troops do it for them" that they write down a grid wrong in their FMP or reverse a couple numbers when calling for fire? 

Do you want your C6 gunner so sleep deprived that he aims for the suicide bomber and hits the pregnant woman instead?

Forgive my candor, but my position remains that if he is unable to perform basic functions under duress, perhaps he is in the wrong line of work.

Finally, in my unit, when in the field, and on operations as well, I would say that the division of work is pretty equal. I've never heard of a platoon commander saying "well, Cpl GO!!!, I'm going to need you to pull a 12 hour shift before our op tomorrow, so I can be nice and sharp for orders". I can't even imagine it happening. I have seen a platoon commander and WO strap on a Pte's epaulette and work a shift of KP when they were not otherwise occupied - just to give their guys a break.

Having said that - nearly everyone I know has set up their fire team partner's/sect i/c or platoon commander's hootch in the rain at some point. Not because it was a menial task - but because they are all valuable members of the team - and they would do it for you if the conditions were reversed.

 

[medaid]

I think I detected a slight hint of officer bashin here in one of the earlier posts  hehehehehe.


Are NCMs professionals? Yes. In my opinion, they are. NCMs are the Army. Without the soldiers there would be no one for the officers to command (well...other then themselves, but that would be a little silly wouldn't it? An entire platoon of 2Lts and Lts commanded by Capts  ;D). Without my troops I am nothing. I too believe in the points brought forth by GO!!! and many others. Although I was never in a position of actual command when I was an NCM, I had the privilege of serving with those NCMs who were in command positions that did a damn good job. I am now equally privileged in serving with them as an officer (But!! OCdts arent officers! blah blah blah...we'll get into that later  ;D), and to be able to seek their guidenance, experience and advice when I need it.

I believe the ideals of the 3 Ms, and I try to adhere to the leadership principles, I devoutly hope that this makes me a better leader, an officer and soldier. Do I believe in the British ideals between the seperation of Officer and NCM? No. I believe that when a soldier is acting to the best of their ability, with the interest of those around them in mind, irregardless of rank or trade, they are a professional.

Just my thoughts.

Oh...ya...with regards to the "Pl Comd's primary weapon" Ya... I made the mistake of joining my QRF when my medical facility was bumped and...well lets just say my RSM had a chat with me vis a vis my role as an officer and 2 i/c lol. Lesson learned quick.

 

[warrickdll]

According to OPME...PSE 402 leadership & Ethics....NCMs are not professionals.....

I know.....i know  :

Could be worse:

The first OPDP module used to espouse how officers were the only true warriors; NCMs were merely technicians of particular trades/weapons, with NCOs to direct the labour. Only officers could be considered warriors as they studied the theories, strategies and mindset of war.

A couple of caveats: first, I read that part of the module about 16 years ago; and second, I have no copy of the module or reference to it.

It was an oddly worded chapter, but it hints at more than just a professional difference between officers and NCOs/NCMs, at least in the minds of some. Anyone know if this is still part of the curriculum? Or how far off my understanding of it was?

I guess part of it still remains, but I'm still wondering if I'm remembering it correctly.

 

[geo]

Iterator,
There was a period of time when junior officers coming off of phase had the attitude of "don't trust your NCOs".  Is it a case of some of their NCO instructors giving them a hard time - to which they intended to return the favor? - I don't know but - it was a hell of a time breaking em of that perspective.

 

[Sig_Des]

Iterator,
There was a period of time when junior officers coming off of phase had the attitude of "don't trust your NCOs".  Is it a case of some of their NCO instructors giving them a hard time - to which they intended to return the favor? - I don't know but - it was a hell of a time breaking em of that perspective.

I wouldn't mind hearing from some who have recently come out or are in the final stages of RMC, see what attitude has been promulgated to them insofar as NCO's

 

[Wootan 9]

The only authoritative CF manual on this issue is very clear on the professional status of NCOs.  Chapter 1 of "Duty with Honour: The Profession of Arms in Canada" describes the Canadian military profession and on page 11 categorically states that all CF members are military professionals.  I don't know how OPME deals with this but if the programme is not using approved CF doctrine it needs to be sorted out.

The idea that "NCOs are not professionals" originates in Huntington's "The Soldier and the State" and is a very dated Cold War construct that described how things were in the US Army in the 1950s and 60s.  I was the Army member of the writing team that put "Duty with Honour" together and we had extensive and heated discussions on this specific issue but, in the end, the facts spoke for themselves.  From an Army point of view (at least) there should be no doubt that NCOs are full members of the profession of arms - the Army would simply cease to function without the professional expertise that NCOs apply each and every day.

Having just retired after 32 years of service I have personally known any number of Sr. NCOs and Warrant Officers who have personified the idea of military professionalism - in my mind there is no debate.

Cheers,
MC

 

[Big Foot]

I wouldn't mind hearing from some who have recently come out or are in the final stages of RMC, see what attitude has been promulgated to them insofar as NCO's

Des, pretty much what we're told is to trust our NCOs. Esentially, the thought now is that officers are part of the team and as such, we need to be able to rely on the technical expertise and experience of our subordinates. That is not to say, however, that there are not still some holdovers from the old way of thinking. The impression that I get is that we're all part of the same team, each with our own area of expertise and we need to take advantage of these and face the mission at hand, not worry about infighting. As was mentioned before, we are all professionals in the Profession of Arms.

 

[Sig_Des]

The impression that I get is that we're all part of the same team, each with our own area of expertise and we need to take advantage of these and face the mission at hand, not worry about infighting. As was mentioned before, we are all professionals in the Profession of Arms.

Well, that is encouraging to see.Thanks for the reply.

 

[geo]

If we go back to the 70s, some couintries like the US, UK, France, Germany, USSR & Co maintained a force of conscript soldiers..... VS a professional officer corp.  In that concept, I might be inclined to second guess / doubt the professionalism of the the conscript "other ranks".

A volunteer army is a professional army - from the top down.............

 

[GO!!!]

So a clean, functioning weapon is important, unless that weapon is a platoon, in which case it can be put away wet, dependent only on the operator's skills to function properly? That is a contradictory statement.

What if that Private is a signaller, responsible for 10 vehicle mounts, 3 manpacks, 6 section radios and 36 personal ones - and because he is a sleep deprived zombie - only half of it works, because he loaded the wrong crypto, etc. I'd say, from experience, that a higher thought process is required to troubleshoot our glorious TCCCS radios than to command a platoon, and nobody rolls without comms. Technical skill vs. leadership being the difference, but both are nearly impossible if one's mental state is degraded.

No, I'd say it's apples and apples. The days of the officers making the only important decisions on the battlefield are long gone - Privates in certain positions control more firepower than a Platoon had 60 years ago - and it is demonstrably true that a platoon commander can be replaced by his platoon warrant with little discernable difference, over long periods of time. (casualties, HLTA etc.)

I am not sure that you understand all the functions that your Pl and Coy Comds and NCOs in key positions need to fulfil over and above those that every soldier must undertake. 

I am keenly aware of the functions (at the platoon level) that officers and NCOs must undergo, but none of this precludes them from the basic soldier skills that keep us all alive. A platoon (or a Coy) is not a sufficiently large organisation that it can sustain a leadership caste which is excused from soldiering in order to command.

I was under the impression that our leaders were our leaders because they were able to soldier and lead. I am quite sure that most people of average intellect can make correct command decisions when they are well rested, fed and comfortable, but this is why our leadership training at the lower levels is so miserable - to ascertain who can make the right decisions under stress.