National anthem

[Michael Dorosh]

In all seriousness, isn't the Hockey Night in Canada theme a more stirring piece of music than the national anthem we have?

I would second that, it gives me goosebumps more frequently than O Canada.  But the original track, not the dolled up one CBC uses now, with the sound effects etc.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

You asked a question of me which IMPLIED that I had a problem with the anthem. As a matter of fact I have no problem with the anthem(albeit it really is not as stirring as some others) what I have a problem with is people who are politically correct! You also IMPLIED that I wished to live under a repressive regime, again I said no such thing.
What I did say is I really cannot stand people who choose to ignore our history, or to change our history through interpretations with present day contexts. I'm glad that we agree on why immigrants came to this country(which is what I stated earlier) and that you stated that my facts were impeccable ;D. That comes from YEARS of studying the history of our fine nation.
So in closing you MISUNDERSTOOD what I was saying and then IMPLIED that I was saying something else. Something to think about in future posts methinks.
Also received your PM and would like to know if you received my reply as my computer was acting up earlier today.

I rather wondered if I was reading too much into that.  ;D  I never PMed you, however, nor did I receive a response....quite odd.

Yes, your facts are indeed impeccable, my apologies if I thought you were championing the words to Maple Leaf Forever as a prescription for a nationally unifying song - that it most certainly is not. 

I think a lot of our problems would be solved by a diligent understanding of history on the part of all of us, but you know what?  Quite possibly the liberal left understands it much better than we are willing to admit out here on the right.  I certainly wouldn't want to see Canada do what the US has sometimes done in Central America, or what Britain was doing 300 years ago.  I would like to see us doing, if it came to that, what we did in 1917 or 1945 or 1952, however.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

"Marganalize" and "enfranchise", two PC buzzwords. Just about what I thought. You probably believe the McKenna brothers version of WW2 that somehow we, the allies, were the horrible bad guys by bombing German industrial centers. REVISIONIST history as I've stated is in line with your thinking. Refuting facts and adding PC values to actions in the past is what causes people to forget their past.

What's ironic is that the efforts to come up with a PC National Anthem have produced exactly the opposite result (as much PC nonsense does).  To wit:

O Canada!
Our home and native land!

Excludes all those that can't claim Canada as their "native" land (i.e., immigrants).

True patriot love in all thy sons command.

Sorry, daughters: apparently you don't count.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,

Presumes the proto-Judeo-Christian myth ascribing functions of the brain to the heart.

The True North strong

What happened to soft power?!?  Pink Lloyd must be having fits!

and free!

Discriminates against monarchists and theocrats.

From far and wide,

Grew up in central Canada?  Sorry, pal: you ain't included.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

Unless you're a pacifist.  Besides, I thought our unguarded border was supposed to be a great source of pride.

God keep our land glorious and free!

Do I even have to get into the discrimnatory monotheist assumptions in that?

Maple Leaf Forever is just fine, thank you very much!  So was the Red Ensign, for that matter! 

 

[2 Cdo]

Wrong person named sorry about the confusion. Hey sh*t happens!

 

[2 Cdo]

LMAO ;D ;D ;D

 

[old medic]

Your choice of wonderful, inspirational, patriotic song brings to my mind the good old days of Empire, black men in chains, and taxation without representation - lovely.  Or, tyranny, as it was once called.

You would think by hearing that song that the British built Canada singlehandedly.  Would come as a shock to my Ukrainian ancestors.  Ever wonder what those funny looking churches with the crooked cross on top signify, in Edmonton, Calgary, Regina or Winnipeg?  It ain't the British Empire. 

Micheal,

Perhaps I'm missing something here,
How do you equate The Maple Leaf Forever with either "black men in chains, and taxation without representation" or even tyranny for that matter?

As for the Ukrainian churches, I don't get it.  People came from alot of places. Oddly enough all those churches were first built
while the Red Ensign was flying and the song was being sung every day.  Infact, they were symbols of the country that took them
in and allowed them to build those churches.

I don't see any logic to attacking those symbols.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Micheal,

Perhaps I'm missing something here,
How do you equate The Maple Leaf Forever with either "black men in chains, and taxation without representation" or even tyranny for that matter?

Taxation without Represntation is Tyranny was one of the slogans that American settlers used before the War of Independence in the 1700s - at about the same time that Wolfe was planting firm Britannia's flag.  Britain was also instrumental in the slave trade, as you know.

As for the Ukrainian churches, I don't get it.  People came from alot of places. Oddly enough all those churches were first built
while the Red Ensign was flying and the song was being sung every day.

You really think that flag and that song represented them in any way other than default?  I'm not attacking anything, I am saying they don't represent Canada as well as the maple leaf flag and the current national anthem. 

Forgive me for speaking for all Ukrainians; I am sure many perhaps most and maybe even all living in Canada in the 1930s or 1940s felt pride in the Red Ensign (beat the hell out of being starved by Stalin - my paternal grandfather arrived here between the wars to build a new life, and was pretty successful) but really - what choice did they have in which flag they took pride in or felt represented them?  Given the choice in the here and now, this Ukrainian prefers the current status quo.

I am not unaware of the significance of that Red Ensign - I fly one in my house, a six footer at that, and displayed one openly at work (people thought it meant I was from New Zealand.... :  )  I just wouldn't pretend it is a good idea to make the entire country fly one.

 

[old medic]

Taxation without Representation is Tyranny was one of the slogans that American settlers used before the War of Independence in the 1700s - at about the same time that Wolfe was planting firm Britannia's flag.  Britain was also instrumental in the slave trade, as you know.

You really think that flag and that song represented them in any way other than default?  I'm not attacking anything, I am saying they don't represent Canada as well as the maple leaf flag and the current national anthem. 

Forgive me for speaking for all Ukrainians; I am sure many perhaps most and maybe even all living in Canada in the 1930s or 1940s felt pride in the Red Ensign (beat the heck out of being starved by Stalin - my paternal grandfather arrived here between the wars to build a new life, and was pretty successful) but really - what choice did they have in which flag they took pride in or felt represented them?  Given the choice in the here and now, this Ukrainian prefers the current status quo.

I am not unaware of the significance of that Red Ensign - I fly one in my house, a six footer at that, and displayed one openly at work (people thought it meant I was from New Zealand.... :  )  I just wouldn't pretend it is a good idea to make the entire country fly one.

In the here and now I agree.  I was getting the impression you were arguing against it in retrospect. 

Historically speaking, I still think that's a very wild reach with claim of The Maple Leaf Forever representing the slave trade and
taxation without representation.  I certainly wouldn't claim that unless someone had a diary or manuscript of the music from
Alexander Muir claiming such was the case. He didn't write it until 1867, long after the American revolution and the British
slave trade.  To claim it represents them would be similar to someone claiming the words God and son in O Canada represents
the repression of the crusades.

And it's nice to hear that someone else here has a few Red Ensigns.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Taxation without Represntation is Tyranny was one of the slogans that American settlers used before the War of Independence in the 1700s - at about the same time that Wolfe was planting firm Britannia's flag.

And yet the Americans didn't seem to have a problem carrying the Grand Union flag during the revolution (you know, the one with the Union Jack in the corner), nor did they see the need to completely redo it (and wipe-out it's historical significance), either.

Britain was also instrumental in the slave trade, as you know.

What kind of point is this?  Just about every culture practised Slavery: Britain, or more specifically, the Royal Navy, was instrumental in ending it.

You really think that flag and that song represented them in any way other than default?  I'm not attacking anything, I am saying they don't represent Canada as well as the maple leaf flag and the current national anthem.

How is the new flag any different?  It was foisted upon us by a Liberal Prime Minister who wanted to claim status as the "natural governing party": I didn't have any say in choosing it.  The current national anthem specifically excludes the non-native born: how is that inclusive of immigrants?  At least the Maple Leaf Forever and the Red Ensign reflect (perhaps somewhat inaccurately), rather than disavow, Canada's history.

Forgive me for speaking for all Ukrainians; I am sure many perhaps most and maybe even all living in Canada in the 1930s or 1940s felt pride in the Red Ensign (beat the heck out of being starved by Stalin - my paternal grandfather arrived here between the wars to build a new life, and was pretty successful) but really - what choice did they have in which flag they took pride in or felt represented them?  Given the choice in the here and now, this Ukrainian prefers the current status quo.

I am not unaware of the significance of that Red Ensign - I fly one in my house, a six footer at that, and displayed one openly at work (people thought it meant I was from New Zealand.... :  )  I just wouldn't pretend it is a good idea to make the entire country fly one.

How does the Liberal Party of Canada flag better represent anyone?  It's been changed from a reflection of heritage into some sort nebulous symbolism of "inclusiveness" or whatever other BS the government of the day wants it to be.  Compare the symbolism in the Union Jack or the Stars and Stripes.  Those flags have character (like the Red Ensign), because they mean something: they actually have names, rather than our non-specific description of what it is supposed to be ... think about Quebec (as another example): they don't have the "Flag of Quebec" it's the Fleurdelisé.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

old_medic - yup, I would not go back in time and say "hey, don't fly the Red Ensign" - Canadians fought proudly under it, and in 1944 it was ordered flown over Canadian Army headquarters in the UK and on the continent.  To thousands of Canadian soldiers (many who were buried under it) it was a symbol of pride in Canada.  It just isn't that way now, so we agree.  EDIT - it is still a symbol of pride, I take pride in it, I just don't feel it fully represents all we have become.  We are so much more than the sons and daughters of the British who founded the nation that the Thistle, Shamrock, Rose Entwined doesn't begin to cover who we are and what we are about.

John Galt - I don't know of any such thing as a "Liberal Party of Canada" flag and frankly think your personal political biases are obviously shaping your opinion to the point that I doubt we would reach much consensus in the way 2 CDO or old_medic and I have.  If you feel so strongly about it, I would suggest a petition or a story in the national press, but frankly, can't really see anyone being as upset about our beautiful maple leaf flag - one which I salute every time I walk past it, and wear proudly on my CADPATs - as you.  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.  I wasn't aware that the absence of a catchy nickname could invalidate something as a national symbol.    God only knows what would have happened had they put a beaver on the flag, given the corruption of that term in latter years to indicate a woman's genitals. 

If you honestly don't think the Maple Leaf represents us, you need to do some research.  Check out the book Stephen Harper's dad wrote on WW I Canadian cap badges, for starters. Tell me how many were based on the maple leaf, or had maple leaves incorporated into the design.  That's just one example. 

 

[Jonny Boy]

How is the new flag any different?  It was foisted upon us by a Liberal Prime Minister who wanted to claim status as the "natural governing party": I didn't have any say in choosing it.  The current national anthem specifically excludes the non-native born: how is that inclusive of immigrants?  At least the Maple Leaf Forever and the Red Ensign reflect (perhaps somewhat inaccurately), rather than disavow, Canada's history..

i completely agree about the liberals and the flag, ever wonder were the red and white came from? the colours of the liberal party.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

i completely agree about the liberals and the flag, ever wonder were the red and white came from? the colours of the liberal party.

Actually mate, our coat of arms the end tip of the shield representing Canada is 3 red maple leaves, with a white background, thus giving us the colours red and white as our official colours. heck, even pearson wanted to have blue on the flag ( apparently representing "from sea to sea" ??? )

As for the anthem, I'm a musician, so i listen to melody first, then the lyrics.
my break down?
MLF: melodically, it has many good points. It shows pride, triumph, and patriotism to a degree that rivals "The Star Spangled Banner"IMHO.
Lyrically, Extremely one sided, and racist to a degree( like it has been said earlier, we're no longer a country of just Brits, Scots and Irishmen, we've moved on)


O Canada: Melodically, beautiful piece, however it does not seem particulary moving.(my opinion, feel free to disagree)
Lyrically, it seems to properly display what Canada is, a place that everyone loves and is willing to fight and die for (or already have).

So my argument is, could we not have the best of both worlds? sort of cut and paste the lyrics of O Canada with the melody of MLF? (with the required tweaking mind you).

just adding more fuel to the fire i guess

 

[Jonny Boy]

ya i like th American national anthem because it is about America and its history, its founders, and its battles. i know it was written during a battle in the war of 1812. i am not sure of the battles name but i know it was right after the burring of the white house.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The US national anthem makes absolutally zero reference to any of their minorities, and it is by far a better and more stirring piece of music then O Canada. And it seems popular enough in the states.

Maple Leaf Forever acknowledges our history, unlike O Canada. The way we are going, it seems like we should rewrite history to show that the first person who discovered Canada was really English/French/German/Irish/Scottish/Ukranian/Chinese/Japanese/African etc etc, had a disability and like to hug trees. It does not hurt to acknowledge where the majority of CANADIANS roots are from.

And like what was said before, despite that fact that it was a flag that made a rather large reference to the UK, the Red Ensign was in my opinion a superb flag. I like the one we have now and all, but again, does not acknowledge our original roots (like the Red Ensign does).

Our original roots would be Adam and Eve.  How about a fig leaf instead of a maple leaf?

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

The Liberals kept possession of the original flag for thirty five years: it was passed from each leader of the Liberal Party to the next, regardless of whether they held office.  They did not relinquish it to the public until they were exposed.

ORIGINAL MAPLE LEAF FLAG COMES OUT OF HIDING
Last Updated Wed Feb 16 10:08:23 2000

OTTAWA-- The original Canadian maple leaf flag finally reappeared Tuesday, returned to public view after being in the Liberal caucus for the past 35 years.

It was first unfurled in Winnipeg in February, 1965, by former prime minister Lester Pearson, who endured loud heckling from the audience. Since then the flag was handed down from one Liberal leader to the next for more than three decades.

"The reality is that Mr. Pearson was very proud of it and wanted to have it with the caucus," Prime Minister Jean Chretien said Tuesday.

Even when the Tories formed the government, the prime minister of the day had no idea where the original flag was kept. "I have no idea where it was," said Conservative Leader Joe Clark.

The Ottawa Citizen then ran a story explaining where the flag had been resting all these years. This prompted the prime minister to give the flag to Heritage Minister Sheila Copps, who will find a proper home for it so it will be accessible to all Canadians.

http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/email.cgi?/2000/02/15/flag000215

The Pearson Pennant was short-lived, and from what I understand, Pearson never expected it to be adopted: it was a hastily-made 'working' design (I believe because he thought it would give Canadians more credibility as peacekeepers in the Suez).  Red, White and Blue are the colours of our two founding nations, not to mention the other great western democracy: many more countries have since adopted the colours because of the democratic traditions they allude to.  Red and White are Canada's "official" colours, but that is purely a monarchist artefact (King George, if I'm not mistaken), and the whole point of redesigning the flag was ostensibly to get away from the monarchist history the Red Ensign recalled.

I'm sure that eschewing that the traditional 3-colour scheme in favour of the colours that happened to be the colours of the Liberal Party is purely a coincidence and that they kept the flag in Party hands was purely an oversight.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

John, I'm absolutely stunned that you would assign any importance to that. 

My question to you is - so what?

I went to a museum in Calgary here a couple years ago, with a piece of glass from the windshield of one of the Avro Arrows.  It's a historical keepsake. 

The original maple leaf flag would be considered the same thing, and if the Liberal Party is proud of it - guess what, they should be.  It's a great flag, a great uniting symbol, and represents all Canadians - except those too hidebound to embrace it.  Their loss. 

What deeper meaning are you trying to assign to the possession of the original maple leaf flag by the Liberal Party?  Does it have magical powers like the Ark of the Covenant?  Cause I'm not getting your point at all.

As for the colours of Pearson's design (aside from the fact it was an ugly design in my own personal opinion, your mileage may vary), "The Old Red White And Blue" is a very old term for the flag of the United States - another nation we are trying to distance ourselves from.  The earliest reference I can recall is Daffy Duck singing "Hooray For the Red, White and Blue" in a 1940s vintage cartoon.  So why then would Canada want to adopt that colour combination also?  See also the earlier heraldic reason given for red and white which you make reference to.

Canadians then, and now, seem to define themselves by who and what they are not, rather than what they are.  Using the colours of the Union Jack and the Stars and Stripes would seem to be self-defeating in that case.

 

[larry Strong]

Ummmm, Like taking our money and spending it on themselves was an oversight. : Oh I'm sorry my memory must be affected by my medication

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Ummmm, Like taking our money and spending it on themselves was an oversight.  Oh I'm sorry my memory must be affected by my medication

What does a flag worth 2.50 in its day have to do with the disgusting excesses being exposed now?  Or this thread on the national anthem, for that matter?

 

[onewingwonder]

took it by force from the natives

my facts were impeccable

Not to muddy the waters any more than they are, but was I asleep during the class on Indian Wars in Canada?

Personally, the tune of the MLF is much better than O Canada. I like the idea of using the MLF tune with different words. On the other hand, the french words for O Canada are rather stirring, much more so than the English version, which really lost the feeling in translation.

WRT the Union Jack. It is NOT the "national" flag of the UK. The UK has no National Flag. England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland have their own flags, but the Jack is not a National Flag. A technicality perhaps, but there you go.

BTW the guy who sang the best version of O Canada(the bilingual one), at the Montréal Forum, was Roger Doucette.

 

[pronto]

hee hee... I know I am going to get into sh*t with you all, but - as a Gunner, I LOVE the maple leaf flag, just 'cause of Judge Matheson's involvement in it! Most Gunners do. Liberals may be liberals, Person may be an arse, but Judge Matheson was a bona fide Gunner hero.

As for the Union flag - it is the official flag of the United Kingdon. OneWing is right - each country has its own flag, and the union one is representative only of the United Kingdom.

... and by the way it is the union FLAG... A union jack is the union flag flown from a mast traditionally set at 45 degrees. That is what a "jack" is - a flag flown at 45 degrees... > ;D