March the guilty b*stard in!

[George Wallace]

I started this thread because it seems we have a few PC folk who take offence to the statement "March the guilty b*stard in!"

PCain, MdH and a few others don't seem to realize that this is an old phrase that is usually said in reference to a 'Legal' proceeding that is taking place, or may have the possibilities of taking place unless something is corrected immediately.  It is a phrase used in the military, dating back in time, and does have some significance, but today is most often just "BLACK HUMOUR".  To be taken as a serious indicator of a persons beliefs is a PC misconception.  Combat Arms Soldiers use many phrases that are Black Humour and totally taken out of context by the uninformed, unknowing outsiders.  In much the same fashion as the youth of today being illiterate and unable to spell and use grammar in the construction of their correspondence, the military uses phrases and acronyms that to outsiders may seem offensive, but are not.  Political Correctness has its limits.  Those who have PC tendencies would be well advised to seek educated debate elsewhere, if their sensibilities are so easily upset.

 

[Pencil Tech]

I missed the thread that caused the controversy but they obviously totally missed the point. "March The Guilty Bastard In" in is a classic army saying.

 

[patrick666]

What exactly does it mean as I did not grasp a full definition from Wallace's post..

Also, what are some other "black humoured" sayings our military has?

Cheers

 

[pcain]

I missed the thread that caused the controversy but they obviously totally missed the point.

People who want to understand this thread should read the one that it grew
out of - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28690.0/all.html - and form their own conclusions.

MGBI is an earthy, to-the-point way of referring to the danger of convicting before the trial itself, turning the trial into a disgrace ritual preceding punishment rather than an open-minded attempt to establish facts. (In the immortal words of Col. Klink: â Å“You will have a fair trial, after which you will be shot.â ?)

Fantasizing about punishments for somebody who hasn't yet been brought to trial, let alone convicted, is a) unfair, b) irresponsible, c) defamatory, if the charges don't lead to a conviction. Once again, (c) is something the mods on this board should be more focused on than they seem to be - it's potentially very dangerous.

(I'm familiar with summary trial folklore - I was an assisting officer, back in the day, for a soldier who was George Macdonald Fraser's Private McAuslan, from the McAuslan novels, brought to life. Three charge parades in the unit in one year, all with the same defendant, and yours truly was his troop leader.)

 

[bossi]

... Fantasizing about punishments for somebody who hasn't yet been brought to trial, let alone convicted, is a) unfair, b) irresponsible, c) defamatory, if the charges don't lead to a conviction. Once again, (c) is something the mods on this board should be more focused on than they seem to be - it's potentially very dangerous.

Thanks very much.  We do not necessarily endorse each and every post made here, and if we were to heavy-handedly censor every word that might possibly be construed as defamatory ... well ... there wouldn't be a hoot of a lot to read ...

So, exercising due diligence and uncommon common sense, we try ...
(keeping in mind that the media is allowed to quote defamatory remarks, since it's not actually the media outlet that's saying it ... but the person or organisation quoted - thus, as noted above, Army.ca is not implicitly endorsing the personal viewpoint of every single person or organisation quoted herein.

And, in the context of a heated discussion of "what should be done to an accused criminal if they're convicted" ... sure - sometimes people get a little hot under the collar ... that's why we have "due process" and not lynch mobs.

 

[badpup]

I totally concur with the ability of the posters to exercise the tight to free speech. All too often in this PC climate we are forced to shut up, and put up. While I may not agree with the observations, and comments of a number of posters, it is within their rights to post those comments.

 

[pcain]

Army.ca is not implicitly endorsing the personal viewpoint of every single person or organisation quoted herein.

A forum designed to encourage debate could hardly endorse all of the different viewpoints expressed on it at once.

(It's a civil liability issue, Badpup, not a Charter one.)

 

[George Wallace]

pcain

You place way too much importance on yourself.   You are not the only one to have had this comment in a thread, but you are one of the most vocal in objecting to it.   Try looking up other threads where other poster have used the same phrase and give your ego a rest.   The world does not revolve around your gratuitus posts.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2374/post-26084.html#msg26084

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25695/post-153963.html#msg153963

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2262/post-25151.html#msg25151

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic=28783/post-190250#msg190250

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28783.270.html#quickreply

But if you truly feel it is only you ......

 

[Fishbone Jones]

When it comes to being PC about something like this, or a phrase that's been around longer than the person that takes offence to it, to bad in my books. Someone needs a chill pill, but they may have to climb down off their podium to get it.

 

[bossi]

A forum designed to encourage debate could hardly endorse all of the different viewpoints expressed on it at once.

(It's a civil liability issue, Badpup, not a Charter one.)

I see your point.

Accordingly, since I'm not as experienced as you are in these matters, nor am I a member of the bar like you, then I'm sure you'll agree that it's entirely acceptable to state personal opinions on generic situations
(e.g. "... I'm in favour of child molesters suffering the same horrible terror they inflicted on their victims" ... or, how about "... personally, I think it's only fair that if a member of the CF is caught with child pornorgraphy on a DND computer then they should lose their security clearance ... forever ...")?

Do these meet with your approval?

 

[Edward Campbell]

The phrase, â ?March the guilty bastard in.â ? reflects not just black humour but also an important principle (which I hope still exists) in military law: an officer empowered to award punishment (a command officer or a delegated officer â “ usually a company commander) is (was, anyway) required to investigate a charge before it was brought to trial.   If the officer felt that the charge was not well founded then he simply tore up the charge report and told Corporal X or Sergeant Y (including MP NCOs) that, effective immediately, there was no charge and that Private Z was to be released from whatever level (usual open) custody under which he was being confined and sent back to his duties a free, and innocent man.

Thus, when a soldier had been charged and did, finally, end up marking time in front of some officer's desk it was because the officer had, already, determined that there was a good case to be answered and there was every likelihood that Private Z had done, or failed to do, whatever Corporal X alleged he had done or said or whatever.

Now it happened that the investigations were not always as thorough as they might have been and many officers listened to a statement of a charge, listened to Corporal X, the Private Z, asked a couple of questions and decided that there should never have been a trial and then dismissed the charges out of hand but, mostly, if you made it to the company commander's office you probably were guilty, even if your right to inherit daddy's estate and title was not in serious doubt.

 

[aesop081]

Ifyou get offended by the phrase " march the guilty bastard in " you need to find a new line of work. Take the nearest exit off the pretentiousness highway.  Its just humour....get a life !!

 

[Kat Stevens]

Thanks for this thread, George, I was beginning to think the army had lost all of its sense of humour.  The phrase itself is older than dirt, and goes well back beyond the days when ANY officer could have ANY NCO flogged for ANY indiscretion.  And, he IS a guilty b*stard, by his own admission, just a degree of guilt left to decide. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be fighting so hard to stay here, IMHO only.

CHIMO,  Kat

PS... This is re the US desrter thread, in case I lost anyone...CHIMO

 

[aesop081]

Its not just your opinion Kat...its mine too

CHIMO

 

[Spr]

Speaking from the perspective of being on both sides of a Summary Trial and/or RDP several times. The Military Justice system woks just fine, the phrase is appropriate because in 99% of cases the accused has had lots of other chances to improve his/her (must be PC) shortcoming or has done something so blatantly obvious that the RDP was just an exercise to ensure due process and dare I say precious  individual rights are observed.

Those of you that take offense to the phrase which started this thread need to grow thicker skin...something that seems to be a problem in the hyper sensitive PC society we have evolved into.

How about..."admit to the particulars and get quit wasting everyone's time".

 

[aesop081]

And having recently been on the receiving end of a summary trial......i agree with the fact that you are usualy guilty before you walk in.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Been on the messy end of that stick a few times too  ;D.  In my younger days, when someone asked for my SIN, I'd reply "too numerous to list." And by the way, I was guilty every time... just a little youthful exuberance..

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Spr]

My point exactly....the ST is there to address "youthful exuberance"...if its more serious then that its now electable or under the the CCC, and the Military Justice system as it is now addresses that requirement quite well, in fact probably better then civil justice system...I'm not sure the exact stats but I think repeat offender in the Military is something like 2% where as there are pers on the civvie side that are career criminals.

As Wayne Fox (Retired Spr) used to say..."If you're going to hoot with owls..be ready to soar with the eagles in the morning or pay the price"

 

[Franko]

PCain,

I actually took the time to read through all the clap trap tripe you spouted and agreed with some of the points you have posted.....

However, "March the guilty b*stard in" is black humour that is very common in the CF at the NCO level....

If you don't like it, don't join the CF or be a member of the site....plain and simple.

The saying has been around a lot longer than you or I have been alive....it's not going to go away, no matter how loud you scream the PC slogans....  :

Loosen up.

Regards

 

[Jarnhamar]

Great post Franko.

I don't know how many times we've commented on this forum that to be a soldier (and keep sane) you need a sense of humor. To someone unacustomed with military lifestyle or culture it might seem a little crass.

If you can't take a joke, seriously, don't join. It'll be hell for you.
If you want to be a crusader and change the CF culture, well good luck.

If your going to get upset anytime someone makes a rude comment here that you don't agree with, be ready to be treated like the fat girl at the highschool dance.