Making Combat Clothing Better

[KevinB]

Matt - looks like the USMC is really taking the lessons learned to heart.  Impressive setup

 

[a_majoor]

Slight diversion about the heat issue:

NASCAR drivers wear a cooling vest which runs cold water through a series of thin tubes to keep the driver comfortable and alert in the hot confines of the car. (NASA astronauts have something similar to wear in space suits). Assuming a small and reliable pump can be incorporated into the vest, and venting the heat into a Camelback or similar hydration system (yes, that will suck when you drink, but otherwise the soldier will need a large radiator sticking out of his back) should allow a fully armoured and kitted soldier to operate more effectively.

On the down side, that translates to more kit, more batteries or energy, more weight....

The ancient Greeks wore about 35Kg of bronze body armour, but had their servents and personal slaves put on the armour just before the battle commenced (using the time during rituals, speeches and other pre battle activity which Greeks used by mutual convention). Romans were innured to wearing armour because it was "dress of the day" every day.

There don't seem to be many good solutions to the heat problem                                                   

 

[Big Red]

Looks awsome.  Can't wait to get issued a set by Mr. Jack Daniels once this stuff hits theatre. ;D

 

[PhilB]

I really like the idea of the crye esque shirt. Would it be possible for any Cadpat dealer to produce such a beast in AR?

 

[medaid]

That's extremely smart... I cant believe we havent thought of that yet... wait.. I can.. I remembered that our uniforms are designed by CTS.... *sigh* oh well... I guess I'll have to find some nice marines to trade with...

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I really like the idea of the crye esque shirt. Would it be possible for any Cadpat dealer to produce such a beast in AR?

That's a tough one, as the the torso material wouldn't be that hard (there are commercially available FR rated fabrics in suitable colours), but FR Cadpat material for the sleeves and shoulders isn't available.  :-(
If you were to do it out of the 'Combat Cloth' or 'Canadian Twill' fabrics, you wouldn't be achieving the same levels of fire retardancy as the Marine's FROG uniform, although that doesn't seem to stop Crye from building and marketing their Combat Shirt using the US NyCo material, which isn't FR rated.  Although it wouldn't be any worse in terms of performance than the issued combat shirt or trousers, and a heck of a lot better in terms of heat and moisture management, as well as functionality.

Hmmm, this is one I'm going to have to ponder for awhile.

 

[KevinB]

How hard is it to get Nomex /Aramid material made in certain patterns?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

How hard is it to get Nomex /Aramid material made in certain patterns?

Depends on how much you're willing to put your money into it.  Probably looking at a 100K investment for a minimum production run of some 5000 metres.

 

[niner domestic]

Matt, just out of curiousity, do you know what is the double rub rating for CADPAT and whether the combined materials are matched for the double rub rating? And, do you know how many washings the fire retardant will withstand before it breaks down?

 

[Loachman]

How hard is it to get Nomex /Aramid material made in certain patterns?

It's being done in TW and AR for Tac Hell two-piece flying suits. Not issue yet, but I've seen trial versions so it can't be more than a decade away.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Matt, just out of curiousity, do you know what is the double rub rating for CADPAT and whether the combined materials are matched for the double rub rating? And, do you know how many washings the fire retardant will withstand before it breaks down?

That would depend on the specific material.  Some materials that are printed in Cadpat, such as Cordura nylon which has a much tolerance to abrasion, than something else, like the Combat Cloth which has a much lower tolerance.
Also, it depends on the type of FR material.  FR Cotton, for instance relies on a chemical treatment for its flame retardant characteristics, which can be diminished over time through launderings and environmental exposure.  Other fabrics, such as Kermel, Nomex, modacrylics (such as driFIRE), or CarbonX are inherently flame retardant due to the characteristics of their physical and chemical makeup.  I do know that Nomex in certain material compositions has a tendency to pill quite badly, but I think that newer processes of milling the material have reduced that issue significantly.

 

[PhilB]

I am personally more interested in the heat reduction and increase in moisture wicking provided by the design of that shirt than the FR properties (since FR AR is not available). I would definitely be up for having a couple of the Frontenac AR shirts done up with the dri-fire or even UA shirts with a mandarin collar and arm pockets.

 

[Big Red]

Theres a guy on the Arfcom equipment section who does that for US soldiers using underarmour or 5.11 undershirts and combat shirt sleeves.

 

[PhilB]

Thanks Red, you wouldnt happen to have a link would you?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Theres a guy on the Arfcom equipment section who does that for US soldiers using underarmour or 5.11 undershirts and combat shirt sleeves.

I'd be wary of using Underarmor (non FR versions) or any other polyester/lycra based fabrics for such a garment.  If this guy is just cannibalizing the ACU or other uniform tops with t-shirts for the torso, if you get him to build you one, you're better off using something FR based, or at least not something with as much of a melt/burn hazard.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

US DOD video news brief about the Marine Corps' FROG uniform:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9d9_1176360494

 

[Yeoman]

yeah I use to wear UA stuff. it's great stuff. but after finding out it didn't have any FR, I stopped wear it.
I had a friend have a shirt like the melt onto his back about 12 years ago. not a pretty sight.

 

[McG]

I've always wondered why the hell our combat shirts have a collar?  Why not have something functional that can cover the neck and keep shit from getting down your shirt or something

I LOVE the arm pockets, if I were to make improvements I would suggest ditching the bottom pockets on the combat shirt. I also dont feel that the waist draw string is worth the time either.

Pen slots inside a covered pocket on the arm would be mighty useful for certain trades. I loose pens all the time in the field and it is mighty annoying.

Now here's a suggestion... Develop a combat shirt that is fitted with no pockets designed to be worn with body armour and/or tactical vests, and worn exclusively for field exercises and combat operations...

And for garrison, have a uniform khaki "dress" shirt with breast pockets, collar, epaulettes, etc., to be worn with the combat pants.

Well here is my proposal.  We retire the combat shirt & adopt something like the US Army Combat Shirt (ACS).  Sleeves identical to the combat shirt (with all the desired fancy pockets, pen slots, Velcro patches, etc), a closed neck and torso to replace the t-shirt.
[quote author= http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,149676,00.html?ESRC=army-a.nl]The flame-resistant ACS is in development for use under body armor. It is designed to replace two layers, the Army Combat Uniform jacket and moisture-wicking T-shirt, thus reducing bulk and heat stress.[/quote]
There would be no garison shirt (and no retention of the old shirt for garrison use).  Instead there would be an un-tactical vest (or garrison vest).  It would basically be a sleeveless version of the combat shirt which could be worn in environments that require neither TV nor FPV+armour (like at Timmies in KAF or an office in Canada).

 

[geo]

Interesting proposal MCG
guess the Star & Army strong message could be replaced by something more appropriate but, all in all, I like it.

 

[medaid]

There is no need for a 'garrison vest' why should there be? The shirts pictured are not meant for garrison use at all. They are meant for when you go on active ops or when you are wearing body armour constantly. Another words those who arein HQ positions or who are not actively wearing body armour all day and night do not wear this shirt. They wear the regular combat shirt, that is it.