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Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread

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Yes, indeed, and had my dear old Gran had wheels she might have been a dump truck. History is never very clear to those who are living it.

But to carry your analogy further: one wonders if America circa 2010 doesn't resemble jingoistic, empire building Britain circa 1850, when the rot set in?

Further: how many great nations or empires have risen, fallen and then risen again? Egypt? No. Babylon? No. Persia? No. Greece? No. Rome? No. Byzantium? No. The Caliphate? No. The Mongols? No. Spain? No. The Moghuls? No. France? No. Britain? Japan? No. No ... America? Dunno. China? Yes. I wonder why.
 
Granny's mobility aside I agree that the crystal ball isn't crystal clear.  I also agree that the US could possibly be at the same place Britain was in the 1850s. In which case China may have to wait another century before the US power wanes enough to get her kick at the can.  In the meantime perhaps we should expect repeats of the following?

Arrow War (2nd Opium) 1856-1860
Taiping Civil War 1851-1862
Punti-Hakka Clan Wars 1855-1867
Nien Rebellion 1851-1868
Muslim Rebellion 1862-1877
Panthay Rebellion 1856-1873
Miao Rebellion 1854-1873
Tonghak Rebellion of Korea 1894
Sino-Japanese War 1894-1895
Boxer Rebellion 1900
Sun Yat Sen’s Revolution 1905-1912
Warlords 1912-1949
Sino-Japanese War 1937-1945
Mao Tse Tung’s Revolution 1927-1949

Obviously I realize that there is no direct analogy to the Opium wars.  However I produce the list to show that: a century is a long time; that foreign powers will impact on China just as much as they will on Brazil and Russia; and that China suffers from the many internal fault lines derived from any population of a billion and more people rubbing shoulders.

Finally, with respect to your point about the various European and Mediterranean empires I would counter: Which China?

Which China, of which dynasty, ruled from which region do you wish to put up against which “Western” Empire?  I suggest that China is not a country. It is a region just as Europe, and more broadly, the West, is.

If I follow the money trail in the West I see a continuous line of trade and commerce that links all of those empires you mentioned, including Mesopotamia and ties them backwards to Oetzi and the older obsidian trade, and forwards to “the City” and Wall Street.  And where trade occurs ideas are exchanged as well.

The individual sitting on the throne, the philosophy motivating the supporters, even the location of the throne changes, but throughout there is a Western continuity every bit as strong as the Chinese continuity.  Conversely, the history of the people residing in the territory claimed by the Red Dynasty, as you have referenced it in the past, is every bit as fragmented, discontinuous and tortuous as that of Europe.

Did the Shang, Zhou, Qin, Han, Wu, Sui, Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Shun or Qing dynasty rise after they fell?  Whether ruled from the Huang He or the Yangtze, by Northeners or Southerners, by Han, Manchus or Mongols, Chinese empires and dynasties are just as fragile and transitory as Western ones.  And yet Chinese peasants and merchants survive just as their Western counterparts have and do.
 
I know this could just as easily fit in the China thread, and it is from Time, and it is from Joe Klein - but precisely because of those reasons it caught my eye and seemed to fit into this discussion.

It is an article about a constituency in China that selects their legislators by lot.

Now if Joe Klein can move this far off the track of believing in Government by elites perhaps there is hope.  The next step is to believing that giving people more freedom to act on their own initiative, less regulation and legislation, will result in a whole lot more innovation and less requirement for direction and policing.

Here's a rambling thought to tie all of this back into Canada's economy: if Stephen Harper wants to create a Northern Legacy for Canada he should do two things - Enshrine property rights for all Canadians, including aboriginals, and declare Nanisivik a Federal Burgh.  As a Federal Burgh it would be subject to Canadian federal law, including labour and environmental law, but it would be exempt taxes.  I am pretty sure that there would be a lot of people trying to figure out how to make themselves comfortable up there while they ran their businesses.

 
Kirkhill said:
...
Did the Shang, Zhou, Qin, Han, Wu, Sui, Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Shun or Qing dynasty rise after they fell?  Whether ruled from the Huang He or the Yangtze, by Northeners or Southerners, by Han, Manchus or Mongols, Chinese empires and dynasties are just as fragile and transitory as Western ones.  And yet Chinese peasants and merchants survive just as their Western counterparts have and do.


The Chinese, from the Shang onwards, were essentially Chinese - even when the rulers were from the North. They were as Chinese, whether Tang or Ming or Qing, as the English were English, whether Lancaster or York or Tudor, Stuart, Orange or Hanoverian.


Edit: typo
 
Kirkhill said:
I know this could just as easily fit in the China thread, and it is from Time, and it is from Joe Klein - but precisely because of those reasons it caught my eye and seemed to fit into this discussion.

It is an article about a constituency in China that selects their legislators by lot.

Now if Joe Klein can move this far off the track of believing in Government by elites perhaps there is hope.  The next step is to believing that giving people more freedom to act on their own initiative, less regulation and legislation, will result in a whole lot more innovation and less requirement for direction and policing.

Here's a rambling thought to tie all of this back into Canada's economy: if Stephen Harper wants to create a Northern Legacy for Canada he should do two things - Enshrine property rights for all Canadians, including aboriginals, and declare Nanisivik a Federal Burgh.  As a Federal Burgh it would be subject to Canadian federal law, including labour and environmental law, but it would be exempt taxes.  I am pretty sure that there would be a lot of people trying to figure out how to make themselves comfortable up there while they ran their businesses.


There are interesting, public, debates going on in China, today, about democracy or, at least some forms of - perhaps inside the party, perhaps at local levels, perhaps by some form of polling. The new dynasty, this capitalist dynasty, needs to find ways to measure the consent of the governed but they fear and mistrust popular elections.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The Chinese, from the Shang onwards, were essentially Chinese - even when the rules were from the North. They were as Chinese, whether Tang or Ming or Qing, as the English were English, whether Lancaster or York or Tudor, Stuart, Orange or Hanoverian.

I accept that.  I also accept that there is an English, Scottish, and German character.  I also think there is a Skanian, Mercian, Provencale and Florentine character. But isn't it equally valid to discuss an essential Europeanness, as dysfunctional, nationalistic and "democratic" as that might be?  And I say that as no fan of the EU. 

I believe that the HRE and the Dukes of Burgundy had a better grip on the European character and how to manage Europe, ie with a light hand, than the centralizing tendency of the Carolingians. 

I guess I am just having difficulty coming to grips with the notion that one billion of anything can be reliably expected to act in a consistently predictable fashion.
 
This draws us back to "culture", and especially Edward's very interesting notions of liberal democractic society, illiberal democratic society and conservative society (roughly America, Europe and Asia [I hope I havn't mangled your arguments too much here]).

America, as a fully realized liberal democracy, can generate responses to new challenges and situations which would strain other societies or even trigger collapse. The EU, and to a lesser extent Canada are far less liberal, and thus less responsive to challenges. Conservative societies have different ways of dealing with challenges (mostly because what constitutes a challenge to a conservative society is defined differently from a challenge in a liberal or illiberal society).

As far as continuity is concerned, both Samuel Huntington and Victor Davis Hanson believe in a continuous line of culture for the West (the only main difference is VDH sees it as being essentially unbroken since the time of the classical polis while Huntington sees the West as the successor civilization to the classical civilizations of Greece and Rome.
 
Interesting reversal of the demographic decline trope, although since the source of the anticipated growth isn't internal, the inference is the Canada of the 2030's will little resemble the Canada we live in today. I had thought that immigration of large numbers of Americans in the late 2020's looking to fill the high income jobs we cannot fill in Canada would cause Canada to evolve towards a limited Republican form of government, but if the demographic surge comes from other sources, then they will be bringing their assumptions and cultural bias  as well:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/09/canada-forecast-to-have-more.html#more

Canada forecast to have more immigration and possibly 47 million people in 2036

Canada is projecting faster population growth because of more immigration than they have projected in the past. Previously Canada was projecting 39.4 million people in 2035 but now they are projecting a medium assumption forecast of 43.5 million in 2035. There will be many updated national population counts and new population forecasts starting from the end of 2010 and through 2011 and 2012 as the census results from 2010 are tabulated for different countries.

Canada's fastest growing province in British Columbia (BC) which could top 7 million people in 2036.

Canada would be in the range of 33 to 38th most populous country. I am expecting that over the next couple of decades that the current estimate will be revised upwards again. Canada is doing very well with oil in Alberta and Saskatchwan and natural gas in BC.

If Canada's population growth trends go towards the high-growth scenario then the 2050 population could be 60-75 million. This would put Canada around 25th in World population and possibly exceeding the expected population of France or the UK.
 
I posted this under the US economy thread as well, but the same principles can be used in Canada, and probably with greater success given our much smaller debt load in both relative and absolute terms:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/can-we-privatize-the-national-debt/?singlepage=true

Can We Privatize the National Debt?
South Carolina's Jim Pratt, running against James Clyburn, is proposing such a plan.
October 10, 2010 - by Adakin Valorem

Our national debt is at $13.5 trillion and growing. At current Treasury rates of around 2%, each billion dollars of debt costs around $20 million in annual interest payments. That means taxpayers are on the hook for $270 billion each year, with no reduction in principal.

With Treasury bonds paying only 2% interest, how do you suppose we are going to be able to attract buyers for all of our Treasury bonds? Obama’s answer is to “monetize” the debt — have the Federal Reserve buy Treasury bonds on the open market. But where does the Federal Reserve get its funds? They print it.

Simply printing money is only a short-term solution. Eventually, most of the foreign owners of our bonds are going to start noticing that the value of our inflated dollars are sinking faster than the 2% interest being paid. Pretty soon, the market is going to demand higher and higher interest rates in order to attract investors to our devaluating paper promises. And what do you think the cost to taxpayers will be when interest rates return to their historic rates of 4% to 6%? Suddenly that cost to taxpayers could easily become a trillion dollars each year.

Is there an alternative solution? Yes, and it’s exactly what a GOP candidate in South Carolina’s 6th Congressional District is proposing.

Instead of creating a VAT tax, or raising the rates on “the rich,” or simply ignoring the problem and following the historic path of places like Argentina, where it took a grocery sack full of cash to buy a Big Mac, why not simply eliminate the government’s debt obligation?

Why not do what real family households do when they are asset rich and cash-flow poor? Why not simply sell off some assets and pay down the debt? We all can banter back and forth over how much the national debt is, but does anyone have any idea what the nation’s assets are worth?  (Interpolation. I am not aware of what Canada's stock of wealth is, nor if any studies similar to the one quoted below have ever been done. It would be quite interesting to discover the results)

In 1995, the Claremont and Cato Institutes estimated the nation’s asset value at around $55 trillion. That was 15 years ago, when there were far fewer dollars in circulation diluting asset value. If we can assume a current asset value of, say, $60 trillion, then resolving a $10 or $12 trillion debt shouldn’t be that difficult.

Recall the S&L banking failure of the early 1990s. The Fed created the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC) to liquidate billions in bank REO assets and was wildly successful.

What if we had a congressional “BRAC-” like committee that was given the task of selecting which military bases to close after the collapse of the former Soviet Union? Our new “BRAC” could choose one dollar out of every six dollars worth of federal assets and have Congress approve the sale and let a new RTC handle the liquidation.

Since there isn’t enough cash in M-1 or M-3 to facilitate the sale of that size, why not simply allow the “seller” to finance the sales of these assets? That way, in banking terms, we would convert the government’s “non-performing” assets into mortgages which could then be used to collateralize securities that are then exchanged or swapped for our outstanding Treasury bond instruments.

For example: I buy a federal office building for $5,000,000. I put, say, 10% down, and the seller (the Fed) finances the remaining $4,500,000 balance at a point above current Treasury bond rates.

Let’s say that your pension fund owns $4.5m worth of Treasury bonds. The Fed could then trade my mortgage for the pension fund’s Treasury bonds. The fund would get my monthly payments (at a point above whatever they were getting) and the Fed guarantees (underwrites) that mortgage providing the same security that was had when the fund purchased the Treasury bonds.

Instantly, the interest payments due on that $4.5m is no longer a federal government obligation, since the payments would be coming from the mortgagor instead of Washington. Repeat that scenario over several years for a trillion bucks worth of assets, and suddenly we’ve trimmed billions off the federal budget, each and every year! We can sell off a trillion bucks worth of assets each year until the federal debt is gone. (Interpolation. Our known debt and unfunded liabilities equal about a trillion dollars Federally. Given teh much smaller size of our market, the same process will also have to be spread over a decade or more.

From a dynamic point of view, we would now have a multi-trillion dollar mortgage security industry, which in itself would generate trades, commissions, and taxes where none exist today. Another dynamic point would be the local property tax revenue that would be generated from these former federal assets that would now be in private hands. Ten trillion in newly taxable assets would generate almost $200 billion in new property taxes for local and state governments. That’s more than the budget of the Departments of Energy, Commerce, Agriculture, Education, and HUD combined. That windfall in local property taxes could easily replace the funding paid to the states by these federal agencies.

Right now there is a GOP candidate running for House Majority Whip James Clyburn’s seat in South Carolina’s 6th Congressional District. Jim Pratt (www.jimprattforcongress.com) has proposed just such a solution to our nation’s long-term debt situation. If elected, Mr. Pratt would propose the above solution as an alternative to saddling our children and grandchildren with our skyrocketing debt burden. (Interpolation. Any party or private member willing to stump for this?)

The big problem for his campaign — aside from Clyburn’s $3 million in campaign funds — is that the state’s GOP leadership has distanced themselves from Mr. Pratt partially due to his endorsements from local Tea Party and 9/12 group affiliates. In addition, they don’t want to “rock the boat” in a district that is majority African-American, especially since it was our state’s GOP legislators that carefully gerrymandered the district so as to separate black and white families that live in the same neighborhoods, just so they can preserve their surrounding Republican congressional districts.

That leaves Pratt out there flapping in the breeze, and leaves the rest of America stuck with James Clyburn’s checkered history as a rubber stamp for Democratic leadership. Pratt needs America’s help if he is to win this election and pursue his objectives: “privatizing the national debt,” reforming our tax code by implementing the FairTax, and phasing in a Chilean/Galveston-style Social Security reform.

Adakin Valorem is a real estate investment analyst for the federal government.
 
Thucydides said:
I posted this under the US economy thread as well, but the same principles can be used in Canada, and probably with greater success given our much smaller debt load in both relative and absolute terms:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/can-we-privatize-the-national-debt/?singlepage=true


The federal government has been trying to do this for the past three years but there is a huge, albeit quite uninformed, public backlash - led by the NDP which abhors private property.

There is a good, sound, but not universally 'accepted' argument for leasing over buying - the principle is that capital is then free to buy things that cannot be leased while leasing costs are just continuously ongoing O&M. The counter, of course, is that 'we' are just giving our money, for ever and ever, in rent/leasing fees to the rich, evil blood sucking capitalists who most Canadians, simultaneously, hate and envy.

It is not beyond the rational to imagine that we could lease assets like warships, tanks and jet fighters. The life cycle costs of lease vs. buy should be roughly the same - system by system - if the deals are well negotiated.
 
I'll go one better than ERC.

New-Brunswick tried only a year ago to sell off NB Power to Hydro-Quebec: It would have wipped NB Power's debt, the whole provincial debt of New-Brunswick AND reduced the power rates of people served by NB Power!

The backlash (including irrational coniption of the premier of Nfld & Lab who just can't get over being told by all the courts in Canada "A contract is a contract") was so severe in the province they had to back off the plan within days of its announcement.

We were not talking about evil bloodsucking capitalists here, just evil blood sucking Quebecers :) .
 
Perhaps New Brunswickers saw it as "Saving a buck today, only to have to pay a hundred tomorrow."  Perhaps people are starting to wake up to this trend in Canadian bureaucracy to "lets cut here and save a nickle and then realize that it costs one hundred times that to maintain down the road".
 
The ultimate beauty of the scheme is that once an asset is in private hands, the "save a dollar today, pay x tomorrow" is now in the hands of the market. If customers are no longer willing to purchase the good or service at price x, then either a competitor will move into the market with the product or service at a price consumers will pay, the vendor will make adjustments to bring costs and prices down, or peope will realize they can go without.

So long as property, goods and services are in the hands of a govenrment monopoly, the market forces are not allowed to work, and we end up with absurd situations like former Ontario Hydro going bilions of dollars into debt because their mandate was to sell electricity "at cost", without anyone but them defining what "at cost" ment. Ontario ratepayers are working off a $36 billion dollar stranded debt from Ontario Hydro, over and above the absurd "flow in" charges for expensive and unreliable "green energy" and US power form Ohio Valley coal plants to cover the crater in supply that has been created. (yes, the Americans are filling in following market princiles, but we the consumers and taxpayers are limited in where we can go to meet our demand for energy).

However, the opposition to private property, the unfettered use of property and putting assets on the market to realize their value for the taxpayer only delays the inevitable. When the time comes and there are no other options, the assets wil go for fire sale prices and taxpayers will realize only a small fraction of the value (and still be stuck with the debts).
 
How U.S. debt battle helps Harper Tories
Bruce Anderson Globe and Mail  Thursday, November 11, 2010
Article Link

This week's release of the ideas of President Barack Obama’s hand-picked advisers, Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson, on combating the U.S. debt, kicked off a debate that will rage south of the border for months, possibly for years. It will have subtle but important reverberations for politics in Canada, too.

By now, there are few Americans left who are sanguine about their country’s mountain of debt, or the pace at which it is growing. The bipartisan report tabled Wednesday startled observers who may have been expecting a more tentative set of ideas: the authors advocate extensive cuts in politically sensitive programs including Social Security. The report also waded into some of the choppiest water of American politics, calling for increased tax revenue as well.

Here in Canada, Ottawa’s record-setting deficit has been something of a non-event in terms of public opinion. One reason for that is how much Canadians have been hearing about how bad other countries have it. Canadians are convinced that our economic woes are mostly a hangover that resulted from an economic binge in the United States, and that we are far from alone in feeling the effects.

The idea that governments should pump money into the economy was largely uncontroversial because everyone in the world seemed to be doing it. And now, the size of Canada’s deficit is being evaluated by voters in the same context. Compared to the dramatic choices facing Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain, Canadians may feel they have little reason to stay awake at night. Massive spending cuts in Britain and divisive social policy adjustments in France offer even more reasons for Canadians to temper their complaints about our circumstances.

And now, America, long seen by Canadians as the foundation stone of economic growth in our country, is looking to correct a $4-trillion imbalance in the next nine years.
More on link
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen is an interesting take on Canada/US relations:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/Take+advantage+Obama+effect/2018400/story.html
Take advantage of the Obama effect
A close relationship with the U.S. is no longer a liability for Canadian governments -- this is a good chance to address Canadian interests
 
By Colin Robertson, Citizen Special

September 22, 2009 
 
During last week's meeting with President Barack Obama, his seventh since they first met in February, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said that the United States is "far and away our best friend in the world." There are times when leaders are out of sync with popular sentiment but, as the survey released this past weekend by the Innovative Research Group reveals, over half of Canadians believe that Obama's election has been a good thing for Canada. Call it the "Obama effect."
...
While the president has told us he loves Canada and surveys tell us that Americans like us, in the U.S. strategic calculation we are neither top-of-mind nor a problem. But geography and the inexorably positive force of economic integration means that when disruptions occur to the natural flow of people, goods and investment, we suffer.

Canadian leadership must take the initiative to protect and advance our interests. In this season of election fever, it certainly gives them greater confidence to do the right thing, knowing that Canadians are behind them.

Colin Robertson is a senior research fellow at the Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute. A former Canadian diplomat, he was part of the teams that negotiated the FTA and NAFTA and he served in New York, Los Angeles and Washington.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen​

I think:

1. Canadians are making waaaay too much about Buy America. Nothing “we” (anyone in Canada) does will make any difference at all in the USA. This (Buy America) is popular and “we” don’t vote. Canadians should calm down because Buy America will die a natural death because it is ineffective;

2. We need to address one key issue: erasing the border! We need to harmonize a whole host of standards and tariffs with the USA (almost done, by the way) so that goods, from anywhere in the world, can cross the Canada/US border without hindrance. Then, much more difficult, we need to harmonize immigration, refugee and tourist “standards” so that any person who enters Canada can enter the USA without hindrance and vice versa. That will, de facto, remove any particular “need” for a border – except for a few “spot check” and policing tasks; and

3. We need to “sell” the Canadian “brand” – close, friendly/cousins, trustworthy, burden sharers with “safe” oil to sell, and so on.  That means hiring/paying big American PR and lobby firms to brand Canada and sell Canada in Washington DC, and in Fort Kent, Maine, San Diego California, Key West, Florida, Blaine, Washington and all points in between.


This story, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail is, despite the anti-government spin, hopeful. It is 'good news:'

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-crafts-plan-to-ward-off-criticism-over-us-border-deal/article1832420/singlepage/#articlecontent
Ottawa crafts plan to ward off criticism over U.S. border deal

STEVEN CHASE

OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Update
Published Friday, Dec. 10, 2010

The Harper government is bracing for a backlash over a border security agreement it is negotiating with the United States, anticipating it will spark worries about eroding sovereignty and privacy rights, a document obtained by The Globe and Mail shows.

The Department of Public Safety communications strategy for the “perimeter security” deal amounts to a blueprint for selling the agreement to Canadians.

It also provides a rare insight into how the government regards Canadians: as a nation ignorant of the true scale of the security threat it faces and more concerned with privacy rights.

The communications strategy for the perimeter security declaration – which the document says will be unveiled in January, 2011 – predicts one of the biggest potential critics will be the federal privacy commissioner Jennifer Stoddart. That’s because the deal is expected to increase the amount of data exchanged between law enforcement and other government authorities in both countries.

“Greater information sharing is part of the initiative. The safeguarding of privacy and sovereignty will be of concern for Canadians,” the document says.

The strategy predicts that Canadians may fail to see the need for a perimeter security deal to help safeguard cross-border trade through efforts such as a joint cargo screening initiative.

“The Canadian public may underestimate the security threat to Canada,” the communication plan says.

Former CSIS director Jim Judd made similar comments to a U.S. State Department official in 2008, according to diplomatic cables disclosed last week by WikiLeaks. The ex-spy chief complained about public naiveté about the extent of the terrorism threat this country faces.

The communication strategy labels Ms. Stoddart as a “high risk” stakeholder who will “raise concerns re: information sharing and protecting private information.” It also anticipates criticism from civil rights groups and others such as Council of Canadians chairwoman Maude Barlow.

Canada is also anticipating that the government of Mexico “may raise concerns about not being included in the vision,” the strategy says.

Canadians learned of the secret talks for a deal after leaks to the media this week.

Under a perimeter deal, Canada and the United States would harmonize rules and practices for screening offshore imports and travellers. They would more closely collaborate on the defence of North America including on immigration, border protection and law enforcement. The two countries already have an air perimeter defence agreement, the North American Aerospace Defence Command, but a deal that focused on external threats arriving by shipping container, ship or land could in theory create an equally secure border around them and lessen the need for burgeoning security controls at the Canada-U.S. border that have been slowing the flow of trade.

In recent years, companies have had to abandon just-in-time shipping and stockpile goods instead to deal with the uncertainty about delays in shipments across the border between Canada and the United States, its biggest trading partner.

Such a deal would seek to assure the Americans that Canada is adequately screening offshore imports arriving by ship or plane so that they would ease up on security restrictions at the Canada-U.S. border.

The federal communications plan says the United States still feels Canada is not doing enough to guard against terrorism.

“Notwithstanding our significant investment to date, a perception exists in the U.S. that Canada has not focused enough on security,” the Public Safety document says.

The Canadian government is refusing to discuss the negotiations, but the communications plan mentions a joint press conference by Prime Minister Stephen Harper and U.S. President Barack Obama in January to announce a declaration on the matter and hold an official signing ceremony.

Afterward, officials from both countries would have 120 days to work out the details, the documents obtained by The Globe say.

Liberal public safety critic Mark Holland said it’s unacceptable that the Tories are trying to conduct such serious negotiations from “behind an iron curtain,” adding that the Conservatives should warn Canadians about their intentions. "When this government keeps you in the dark, it’s usually for a reason,” he said.

“This is a government that treats Canadians as children and tries to circumvent debate and feels they don't have enough knowledge to be consulted.”

Mr. Holland said Canada must not cede sovereignty over how it deals with refugees and immigration.

“There’s nothing wrong with working more closely with the Americans ... but the terms that govern this have to be set very carefully.”

Canadian Chamber of Commerce president Perrin Beatty said Public Safety Minister Vic Toews is the first Ottawa minister who is prepared to talk openly about forming a common security perimeter with the United States since the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks.

“For nine years, it was a word that politicians dared not speak,” said Mr. Beatty, whose group is the largest business lobby in Canada. He said this reticence was caused by a misplaced sense that Canadians would reject the idea. Mr. Beatty argues that Canadians are pragmatic and would accept the tradeoffs of closer integration with U.S. security.

He said he never would have predicted he’d agree to biometric scans as the price of having a NEXUS card that allows easier entry into the United States. “If anybody had told me I would be providing a retinal scan to our two governments, I would have said there was absolutely no way that would happen,” Mr. Beatty said.

“The simple fact is the world has changed. These are fair tradeoffs for us to make in order to have freedom of mobility.”

John Manley, a former Liberal deputy prime minister and now president of the Canadian Council of Chief Executives, said talks appear to be going in the right direction, but cautioned there has to be a bottom-line payoff in terms of smoother shipping at Canada-U.S. border land crossings.

“The real question will be what do we get at the border in exchange for greater co-ordination on security,” Mr. Manley said.

According to the communications strategy, key federal ministers would undertake a campaign to sell the deal to Canadians, including visits with editorial boards, media events and speeches.


We need to think back to the 1988 Liberal election ad that aimed to frighten Canadians into rejecting the Canada-US Free Trade Agreement by showing the Canada-US border being erased. That, essentially, is what we need to do. Our North American border should face the outside world. We, Americans and Canadians (not Mexicans) are about 97.5% of the way along the “no border” path for goods (things) and, at a guess, 85% along the path for services and 75% for people. The remaining hurdles are neither huge nor especially difficult but some will be controversial.

John Manley asks the right question, as he often does: ”what do we get at the border in exchange for greater co-ordination on security?” We must make a net gain on 'our' wish list or we must walk away.

What the government appears to (finally) comprehend is that Americans have decided, amongst themselves, that security trumps trade – in fact it trumps everything. If we cannot help with their security concerns – no matter how ill-considered some may appear – then we cannot expect them to help with out trade concerns. If we offer them what they want for security then they will reciprocate. But this is not classic, early 20th century reciprocity – tariff for tariff, and so on, this is a new type of trade-off

Now, we do need to be cautious in dealing wit5h the USA. It is proposed that we will hand over sensitive personal information to the same folks who are, 99.99% responsible for the Wikileaks fiasco. Assange didn't steal the United States' information – Americans, official Americans failed to secure it. The US government is, generally, a blind, stumbling, not very bright behemoth that, time and again, shoots itself – and its friends and neighbours – in the foot.

But, by and large, the programme outlined in the above article makes sense and Canadians need to support it as a matter of “enlightened self interest.”
 
Two more pieces, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, re: the how and why of ”thinning” the Canada-US border:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/a-thinning-border-but-no-continental-big-bang/article1832639/
A thinning border – but no continental Big Bang

JOHN IBBITSON

Globe and Mail Update
Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010


The discussions between the Canadian and American governments over thinning the border have some people talking about an integrated continental security perimeter. Sadly, it’s not going to happen.

Homeland Security Director Janet Napolitano and Public Safety Minister Vic Toews are in the advanced stage of discussions aimed at arresting the ever-thickening 49th parallel. In exchange for increasingly integrated surveillance – a so-called North American perimeter – people and goods would flow more easily between the two countries through such measures as pre-clearing shipments and expanding the Nexus program, which makes it possible for pre-approved citizens to cross the border with fewer inspections. The Globe’s and Mail’s Steve Chase writes today on the communications strategy the government is devising to sell the improvements.

That strategy will be vital. Too many Canadians are reflexively suspicious of what they see as American encroachment on this country’s sovereignty. Joint surveillance and information-sharing will have Canada-firsters like Maude Barlow of the Council of Canadians howling. The NDP will howl too, and the Liberals will, at the least, bark.

This despite the fact that integrating continental security will keep Canadians as well as Americans safer, just as integrating air defence under NORAD helped keep Canadians as well as Americans safe during the Cold War.

Canadians didn’t directly experience the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and most of them have never really agreed that there is a conflict between the Western world and Islamist extremism. The Americans will never get over that day – nor should they – which is why Homeland Security has been making it increasingly hard to cross the border, even though the measures harm the American and well as the Canadian economy.

Some observers, including this writer, would like to see both countries go further. The Big Bang theory, as it’s called, envisions a fully integrated North American security perimeter and a fully integrated North American economic sphere that would include a customs union and labour mobility agreement.

This will never happen, because most Canadians don’t want to get that close to the Americans, wrongly fearing the federal government would lose control over its immigration and refugee policies. Such a comprehensive accord would require legislation – heck, it would probably require a referendum – and the political environment in Ottawa is too fragile and unstable for any government to attempt such a thing.

So expect incremental, regulatory, no-legislation-required announcements when the border initiative is rolled out in January. It’s far better than nothing. What doesn’t get thinner gets thicker, with borders as well as with waistlines.


We really should aim for the “Big Bang” but I'm sure Ibbitson is correct and the government, facing a HUGE, ill-informed backlash from timid Canadians – just look at the Comments in the Globe – will do it piecemeal, avoiding parliament, as far as possible.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/how-canadas-share-of-the-vast-us-market-is-eroding/article1832511/
How Canada’s share of the vast U.S. market is eroding

MICHAEL BABAD | Columnist profile | E-mail

Globe and Mail Update
Published Friday, Dec. 10, 2010

World economies rebalancing

Bit by bit, and inch by inch, the world's economies are beginning to rebalance, which is what everyone wants to see in terms of what that means to global growth.

Make no mistake, tremendous imbalances remain. But trade numbers from China, the United States and Canada today all point to a rebalancing act beginning to take shape, though there's still a "very, very long way to go," said BMO Nesbitt Burns senior economist Jennifer Lee.

The overall picture is one of a world less reliant on the U.S. consumer and more on the surplus economies such as China, she said.

Over all, the U.S. trade picture was far brighter in October, highlighting the fact that American companies are taking advantage of emerging markets. Exports hit their highest in two years and the deficit narrowed to $38.7-billion. And here's a key fact: China and Mexico took in record U.S. imports.
Of course, currencies are still a factor in all of this, particularly amid pressure on Beijing to allow its yuan to rise and complaints that U.S. stimulus measures are pushing down the greenback.

"The decline in the U.S. trade deficit in October corresponds with a period of a weaker U.S. dollar," said Christos Shiamptanis, an economist with Toronto-Dominion Bank.

"The greenback declined by 1.4 per cent against a trade-weighted basket of currencies in the month. While the dollar has since gained some of the ground it lost, it still remains below levels seen in the third quarter and also below levels since the beginning of the year. So going forward, this should remain a supportive influence on U.S. exports in the fourth quarter, along with ongoing firm demand from the global economy, particularly emerging markets."


Now some Army.ca regulars will note that I'm the guy who keeps says, “look West!” to Asia for our trade future. That's true, and we should, but not before cementing our hold on our closest, safe, nearly domestic market in the USA. The decline – debasement, in my opinion – of the greenback makes it even harder to sell into the USA – our goods and services are, now, 1.4% more expensive just because of the US dollar's weakness. Now is the time to secure our place, on favourable terms, in the US market.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
.... John Manley asks the right question, as he often does: ”what do we get at the border in exchange for greater co-ordination on security?” We must make a net gain on 'our' wish list or we must walk away ....
Given the cost (to people crossing the border, especially those using it regularly) of "walking away", what's your read on the odds that Canada will end up with doing what's asked, and getting very little in exchange?
 
milnews.ca said:
Given the cost (to people crossing the border, especially those using it regularly) of "walking away", what's your read on the odds that Canada will end up with doing what's asked, and getting very little in exchange?


Sadly, I think the odds are very "good," but the Conservatives just might have the balls to reject a bad deal and then crow about it, burnishing their nationalist credentials just a wee bit.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Sadly, I think the odds are very "good," but the Conservatives just might have the balls to reject a bad deal and then crow about it, burnishing their nationalist credentials just a wee bit.
I hope for the last bit, too - let's hope the "sell" brings enough Canadians on board (given how much counter-sell to expect).
 
milnews.ca said:
I hope for the last bit, too - let's hope the "sell" brings enough Canadians on board (given how much counter-sell to expect).
Like this:
.... Maybe panic, paranoia, and intelligence and security powers unfettered by the rule of law (such as the super-secret, imaginary police powers recently on display in Toronto) are what Canadians need to protect our society ....
 
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