Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

[SeaKingTacco]

Not everybody needs to stay full 25 year ride, either.

You can contribute if you do BE or two as an NCM or an Officer, then move on.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Put them into the depots or ADM Mat? Certainly. Makes perfect sense.

But that is not the comparison you made. You stipulated tactical employment at the pointy end, not me.

 

[dapaterson]

I specified an instructor - implying that we would employ them as such to introduce new equipment.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I specified an instructor - implying that we would employ them as such to introduce new equipment.

Right. And airline pilots know all about AAR, right?

 

[SupersonicMax]

I specified an instructor - implying that we would employ them as such to introduce new equipment.

Training will be contracted like we do for the A310s now.

 

[dapaterson]

Training will be contracted like we do for the A310s now.

...except we won't be competing for slots with Iranian airlines any more...

 

[SupersonicMax]

Right. And airline pilots know all about AAR, right?

To be fair, we had a program for reservists that we hired off the street, did a small conversion course and received their wings (I met one Griffon pilot and one Gonzo pilot that were under that program). Direct as Captains with about 6 months military experience.

 

[lenaitch]

And 99% want to be a pop singing sensation.....

And that means as much as the survey.

Social media influencer.

 

[Weinie]

Social media influencer.

That is my 15 year old son's stated future. My advice falls on deaf ears.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I'm sure there are all sorts of non-deployable positions that can be filled, particularly as DND positions.

Doesn't help much with the op tempo of the next roto, though.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The Gen Z and Millennial generations, in particular, want to work with a company that stands for a purpose beyond simply making a profit and want to feel their work is making a positive societal or environmental impact.

The more of those there are, the better the compensation the people willing to do all the non-fulfilling jobs will command.

Lifestyle benefits also are becoming popular.

It's all just money, but dressed up to sound different. I pity folks who can be seduced by a gym membership or a "life balance account" rather than the equivalent amount of money to spend as they please.

Every generation manages, somehow. Buying into a house was easier for me than it will be for them. Still, I couldn't have done it if I hadn't been using max RRSP contributions as a savings target from "go".

 

[lenaitch]

One thing about that type of job, they don't transfer you from your station, schedule or partner / crew.

Unless you bid for one. Even if you do, your new station or HQ, would be within city limits - so, no need to sell your home.

That may, or may not be, inportant for some.. That's for them to decide.

Urbanly speaking, of course.

Does the RCMP have issues with their people not liking being posted around and living in remote areas?

The OPP gets around this in a couple of ways. A lot of the staffing at northern Ontario detachments is recruits. Their training officer might have a year or two on (at that location), the Sgt., if there is one onsite, might have 5 or 6 years on, possibly as a constable at that same detachment. Most northern detachments are fixed duration. In an effort to get people to stay beyond their term, 'posting incentives' can be in the five figures for another full terms. Even with that, most do their duration then transfer south. Gone are the days of arbitrary 'administrative' transfers; I'll bet there hasn't been one for 30 years. Unless you volunteer for a transfer (paid or unpaid) or enter the promotional process, you can potentially spend your career in one location.

Unrealistic career expectations aren't unique to the CAF. I partially blame recruiting, but in the desire to make a job seem fulfilling, exciting, glamorous, etc., they fail to mention the a lot of the realities. I'm not saying it should be done at the advertising or attracting stage, but it needs to covered at some point. In policing, 'your can be (chief), you can help people', needs to tempered with you get to do a lot of that at night and a lot of people you encounter don't want your help - or actively don't like you.

 

[OldSolduer]

Congratulations. You and people like you are the reason we're bleeding personnel.

Not always true. Several of us on here showed that loyalty is a two way street - and sometimes were unjustly sanctioned for it.

 

[Booter]

Urbanly speaking, of course.

The OPP gets around this in a couple of ways. A lot of the staffing at northern Ontario detachments is recruits. Their training officer might have a year or two on (at that location), the Sgt., if there is one onsite, might have 5 or 6 years on, possibly as a constable at that same detachment. Most northern detachments are fixed duration. In an effort to get people to stay beyond their term, 'posting incentives' can be in the five figures for another full terms. Even with that, most do their duration then transfer south. Gone are the days of arbitrary 'administrative' transfers; I'll bet there hasn't been one for 30 years. Unless you volunteer for a transfer (paid or unpaid) or enter the promotional process, you can potentially spend your career in one location.

Unrealistic career expectations aren't unique to the CAF. I partially blame recruiting, but in the desire to make a job seem fulfilling, exciting, glamorous, etc., they fail to mention the a lot of the realities. I'm not saying it should be done at the advertising or attracting stage, but it needs to covered at some point. In policing, 'your can be (chief), you can help people', needs to tempered with you get to do a lot of that at night and a lot of people you encounter don't want your help - or actively don't like you.

I remember a brand new guy had a prisoner trying to drag him through the meal slot on a cell door. He couldn’t believe he was hated by a stranger.

Or the usual where a brand new cop is shocked at the things said to them, it adds up. Shine comes off fast.

 

[btrudy]

The BLOODY PROBLEM is that some CAF pers demand that the CAF cater to their demands, instead of understanding the demands of the CAF. A "me" vs "we" approach is incongruent.

When it is the CAF that has is having chronic personnel issues, then it's the CAF that needs to change to fix those problems.

Expecting the people in the CAF to stop wanting a better employer isn't going to happen. We need to be the better employer.

Honestly, I feel a bit dumber just for for having to explain this. When what the CAF is doing isn't working to meet its own requirements, the CAF needs to fix what it's doing.

Who told you, or others, that a career in the CAF would not have challenges? If some are voting with their feet because they don't like it , GOOD. I would suggest that choosing a job in the CAF does not give one license to say we need to be a "better employer" because circumstances placed one in a position they didn't like. Again, welcome to the real world.

No one told me that a career in the CAF would not have challenges. But I do, at the least, have an expectation that the challenges not be self-inflicted by the organization. I understand that the job we do has some inherent challenges. What I don't understand is why people don't seem to have a problem with leadership at various levels intentionally or inadvertently making things worse, and then just expecting everyone to "suck it up".

Choosing a job in the CAF does absolutely give anyone a license to expect that they at least be treated well by their employer (literally everyone has that right of any employer). And if those expectations aren't met, to leave. When one person makes this choice, that's a them problem, but when it's happening at the rate we're seeing if happen, that is absolutely an institutional crisis, and I'm quite glad you're getting out because you seem completely blind to that fact.

We need to stem the flow of people, as otherwise it's just going to get worse, and we'll be burning out those people we have left at an every faster rate.

It's not the CAF members leaving that needs to "welcome to the real world". Hell, I'd say they're leaving for "the real world".

It's the CAF. The organization needs to take off its blinders and accept the reality of the HR landscape it's trying to operate in. Because trying to pretend like the same policies that we've had in place since Nelson was a subbie are still a reasonable way to go about running things simply isn't going to cut it. People in the CAF aren't baby boomers any more, so using policies that worked to attract and retain them isn't going to work.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The issue is that the CAF sold itself for years as a career with a pension as a carrot. With new demographic for whom a long career or a pension is not what drives them, we’re not attracting as many people as we could. We need to market ourselves in many different ways to appeal for many different types of people, not just those that want a full 25-year career. Once people are in, we need progressively better incentives to keep them in.

To me, this is the crux of the issue. I would be more than happy to remain a Reservist, keep myself physically fit and keep my "oars in the water" should something come up that interests me. A war or actual Expeditionary operation would be that that thing but I wouldn't want to deal with our BS training system again.

I think the entire "career + pension for life" is the wrong selling point for many of the trades in the Armed Forces.

The reality, is many/most never make it to 25 and few make a "career" out of it. I wonder how many people that join the CAF actually end up collecting a full pension?

Certain trades also have a real and legitimate "best before" date for people.

The CAF should be advertising the opportunity to shoot guns, operate dangerous and expensive equipment and push it to the limit while occasionally getting the odd adrenaline rush with the opportunity to maybe..... if the stars align.... do some actual operations.

 

[Dana381]

I would like to share some observations from an outsider, things I think are causing the recruitment problem.

• The guidance counselor point is true and a big one. Same goes for trades, white collar people look down on trades people and non-intellectuals. They believe to be successful you must pass through a university.
• Recruitment time, why does it take so long? We live in an instant society. No one wants to take two years to find out if they got the job. They can use those 2 years productively on another career. I remember the movie "In the army now" he walked into a recruitment office, signed a paper and began being yelled at inside 5 minutes.
• Government interference, cons=good times, libs=bad times, is the perception of the masses. When I was in high school, during Cretien the CAF was trying to get people to quit. Some people think they are still doing that. The CAF experience needs to be more stable of changing governments.
• Patriotism, severely lacking in Canada. There are a number of reasons but the media is to blame for most of it. They make money off of division so they can't push patriotism because that brings people together
• A general feeling our military is inept and underfunded. While this is true to some degree the opinion is much worse then reality I believe. This is also largely the fault of the media. The only news surrounding the CAF they will "print" is negative. During Afghanistan they criticized the CAF for not having the right equipment to protect the soldiers, equipment they made it impossible for the CAF to purchase, tanks with A/C for example. In the 90's buying new tanks would have been political suicide.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Bluebulldog]

I think the survey is also quite subjective.

In a boom / bust economy, things like stability, pension and benefits are either desirable, or not so much.

Sure, a 22 year old in the current job climate can afford to be a bit "picky", because there is a high demand for workers, even those with little or no skill. The economy will ebb and flow however, and some of those private sector employers may find that perks aren't easy to maintain, or offer quite as readily.

I think the CAF does a poor job of promoting the fact that an unskilled worker ( PTE-R), will not only be trained at no cost, but will also be paid and fed while that occurs. Pay rates have grown substantially in the recent past, and qualified candidates are certainly offered compensation that is competitive.

We're likely going to see a shift to candidates coming in the way they used to...from rural areas, and those who don't have the opportunities available to them either due to geography, or economic circumstance.

 

[Good2Golf]

Congratulations. You and people like you are the reason we're bleeding personnel.

It's like some people forget that loyalty is a two-way street. If we want people to stick around, we need to make it worth their while. Berating them about how "IT"S PART OF THE GIG WHY DID YOU SIGN UP" when they express displeasure about aspects of the job which are destroying their finances, relationships, etc will result in "You're right, why the hell did I sign up, I'm out of here".

If we want to keep people, we need to be a better employer than the alternatives. Stop telling people that they "can always vote with their feet", BECAUSE THEY ARE AND THAT'S THE BLOODY PROBLEM.

Or, you know, instead you can yell at people when they tell you why they're leaving. That'll improve morale.

If you took Weinie’s post as a Four Yorkshiremen suck-it-up thing, I think you missed his point. The major takeaways should have been ‘informed decision making’ on the part of the prospective member and the CAF’s responsibility to properly inform said prospects while working to address the institutional issues that, for many people who have both served and worked privately, aren’t limited to military service alone.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I think you can add to that the two-earner family factor. If I'm reading these stats right Canada has around two million couple families where only one member is a wage earner and 5 million couple families where both members are wage earners. That shows just how important having a second wage earner is to a family and how much stability for them in their employment is to their lives. Note particulalry how much higher the median income is for double earner families - nearly three times for male single earner families and nearly four times for female single earner families.

Our bases are generally not conducive to jobs (especially well paying jobs) for the spouse wage earner. That earning loss really becomes a factor as children come along as the member's career progresses.

Lets not mince words. I loved my military career but I saw a tremendous increase in my earning potential as a civilian. Being able to stay as a reservist was a bonus.

I think that ties well to the geography component, as well as (correct me if I'm wrong) another issue of being both officer (and senior officer) heavy.

Would I be wrong in the assumption that #'s issue isn't in having enough officers and warrants willing to "play the game" that comes with having a military career, but with having enough other ranks to fill the remainder of the positions?

If I'm correct, then wouldn't the approach be to provide stability to those other ranks? I don't know how feasible it is, but if we/you could make every effort to reduce non-volunteer posting below WO it could make for a very attractive, stable, 8-13(?) year job option for people. Still have exercises, potential for deployment, maybe the odd short course, but (danger aside) that's little different than people that travel for work sometimes.

And in terms of geography- up the number of RegF opportunities for those now stable jobs in Southwestern Ontario/ Golden Horseshoe. 10 million people. Obviously certain things (Navy on the coast, Cold and Bagotville, Wainwright) need to be where they are in Canada, but certain things don't need to. Put them where people are.