Live fire training in Reserves

[noreaga808]

Hey guys thanks for the input from my original post. First off I'd just like to clarify that I'm not in any way downplaying the Reserves or the Naval Boarding Parties. My impression of the Canadian Forces is that they make the best from what little they receive and produce top shelf soldiers.
I have failed to realize that I used "Live fire" in the wrong way. I failed to realize that live fire training is simulation of a battle with real ammunition. I assumed it also included range training from say 300m on in. So I'll have to ask is there much range time alloted to the reserves to maintain basic marksmanship? If not I will definitely kick myself in the butt for selling off my Armalite.
I can see from all your posts the necessity for training building up to live fire training. Definitely for safety reasons and to get people up to speed live ammunition isn't needed for all exercises. Effective training can without a doubt be carried out using alternatives such as dry fire dummy rounds, blanks, simunition, MILES and even nothing at all but your personal weapon.

 

[pbi]

Actually, you are not that wrong: "live fire" really just means live ammo. Live SA ammo can be ball (projectile) or blank (no projectile). So, firing on a conventional range is in fact "live fire training".
I think what we are referring to here is "field firing" which involves the construction of improvised live firing areas in order to go through a one-side tactical scenario firing ball ammo at target systems that move, pop up, etc.

Now, as far as "range time" in the Reserve, the issue is really not the amount of free time available on the range-most SA ranges in the Canadian Army are greatly-under utilized these days. The real issues are the number of training days available to the Res unit in the course of a year (37.5 days are supposed to be given to each soldier in each unit, but not all Res Brigades achieve this); the amount of small arms ammo available, and the unit's training funds. If a unit has to travel a long distance to get to a rifle range (ie: if the LSSR wants to shoot at Shilo, the nearest CF range, it is nearly 13 hours driving time..), it can be a drain on the unit's training funds. I would guess that the average Res unit gets onto the range twice a year.This is why SAT is so important. Cheers.

 

[dutchie]

I grew up in the pre-MILES Army, and I can assure you that even with live fire training (and we did quite a bit...) we were learning some fatally bad lessons. When I first watched a rifle coy making an assault on a fortified position with MILES, I saw with my own eyes what bad habits we had acquired: IMHO we would have paid a pretty bloody price in battle. IMHO training without MILES should be the exception rather than the rule

pbi: totally agree with you. This was discussed in another thread, IIRC.....'Thinking of the Section Attack'? Anyhow, I'm sure you realize this, but I was mearly pointing out what we do, not what we should be doing. I'd love to use MILES more than once a year, but it never seems to happen. Budget and equipment availability contraints, I suppose.

Cheers

 

[pbi]

Seen. Cheers.

 

[noreaga808]

Hey PBI, thanks for the clarification. I hate being the FNG. I guess you got to start learning from somewhere. From the sounds of it, it looks like I'm going to have to take the initiative to maintain my marksmanship skills on my own time in addition to PT in the Reserves.

 

[The_Falcon]

Regarding Simuntion, we have used it quite a bit out here in LFCA.   Meaford (or possibly the CBGs) has the specialized kit required to use simmunition, ie upper receceiver, bolt group, magazines, protective equipment. It is only effective for a very short range (25 feet for 9mm, which is what we use currently.   I was just at the site http://www.simunition.com/index.php?section_id=51 they are now making an FX cartridge in 5.56mm, accurate to 100 feet.   I would expect we might start converting to this instead of using the 9mm). Because it is only accurate for short distances we mainly used it in urban ops on weekend exs and ExSG.   The last weekend ex my unit had, we employed simmunition during the final assualt phase of section attacks.   It is a great training aid, as you can see where exactly you were hit, and realize right away if it were real, whether you would be going home on a strether or in a body bag.   Drawbacks are the lack of accuracy small distances, there are no conversion kits for GPMGs (the new 5.56mm round can be used in C7/8/9 with specialized bolt) as of yet, and the helmet you have to wear is a total pain in the butt.   You can not hear much, you voice is heavily muffelled, and it tends to fog easily.   But all in all it is wonderful to use.

P.S. It is also hurts a lot if it hit non-padded areas.   When we used it the first time we were told to wear gloves, as it has a habit of breaking exposed skin.  

 

[veiled scout]

Hello
OK I have read the posts and want to add some insight to what everyone is taking about. First off any Unit Reg or Res can do any trg that they want. It all comes down to the "Operation Plan" that the units receive. As long as they follow the commanders intent from LFWA or LFCA (which encompasses both reg and res bdes) down to their brigades and then to the units, then it will work. The end state of all units is to participate in some type of Bde or area concentration. Prelude to this would be Gateway training, followed by IBTS and then BTS. As stated by other members it is also dependant on what your trade is. Bottom line as long as it is identified in the training plan and follows the commanders intent and more importantly done within proper timelines, then it will be a go.
As far as simunitions go, valuable tool, too short range, good for FIBUA or OOTW. Mostly used to train the impact of blue on blue or sequence of room clearing. Again this type of training would have to fit into the BTS as identified by your Bde. MILES is good and plays more on the sense of making troops be tactically aware of their surroundings(can also be used for Lessons learned, blue on blue, etc). It was mentioned about the fact of the CMTC in Wainwright, as stated it will mirror what NTC has been doing for years, the good news is now CO's and the Brigade staff will also be exercised (no more MELs). Accountability will be the key issue and very shortly once it is implemented we will see who can and can't do their job.
Another good tool, which I don't remember seeing is the SAT (small arms trainer). Marksmanship principles, scenarios, ROEs etc can be programmed into the unit. As well various wpns can be added depending on what BTS you are trying to achieve. The only drawback is that it is in garrison and doesn't give you or can't give you the field environment.
The only real difference between the regs and reserves is time and operational deployments, as when reg force units are scheduled for rotation, they then turn to the DLOC phase of training and more money is added for ammo, etc. Another downer facing the regs, which the reserves are not subject to is the ATOF cycle. If you move into or get posted into a unit that has just got back from a tour, well you will now be in the reconstitution phase. To make it simple it is a cycle of trg the progresses from reconstitution to deployment. But again this is laid out from Area and Bde.
In closing I would like to encourage everyone that belongs to a unit to find out what is in their Operation plan for the coming new year, and more importantly, have some insight and say as to what you want to see in the training. If you don't know ask to see the operation plan from your brigade (it's no secret). Also ensure that you understand it, your training will be highlighted by the BTS tasked to your unit.

TANKS

 

[chrisf]

Hey PBI, thanks for the clarification. I hate being the FNG. I guess you got to start learning from somewhere. From the sounds of it, it looks like I'm going to have to take the initiative to maintain my marksmanship skills on my own time in addition to PT in the Reserves.

Since this time last year, I've done 5 range shoots with the C7 and 3 with C9, including low-light and illuminated shoots, managed to qualify as marksman with the C7, and learned to appreciate the zen of time spent in the butts on a manual firing range. I figure I'm doing reasonably well for a signaller.

 

[River Fenix]

Sorry if this was already answered in the page I skipped over..  :-X

Im currently a Gunner, with 30th Field RCA in Ottawa. (RCA meaning Royal Canadian Artillery, for those who might not know). So being that we use one huge sonofaGun - its almost expected that we wouldnt get nearly as much live fire time as, lets say, an Infantry regiment.

Well... On the contrary. You see, just because Im artillery, doesnt mean I dont need to know how to fire a C7, C9 or C6. Therefore, I must maintain a high level of training on said weapons (at least high enough to keep up my current level of skill). So in addition to these, I must also undergo live fire training on my MOC. As of September (2004) Ive been on several unit exercises, all of which have been ammo-less. However, my unit Did get to use said simmunition rounds last summer (Ive heard they are shit, cant go more than 30 meters). Ive used more blank ammunition than I could possibly count (In the reserves there are usually enough blank rounds to go... around.. than there are BFA's to use with them.) And ive fired my fare share of ball-rounds from the C7.

  Now on to my trade. I use the C3 105mm howitzer. each round costs, lets say, about 600$ CDN (standard HE round). On my LAST live fire ex, we (the battery) was authorized to fire over 1200 rounds!! 1200 rounds between 6 guns!!.... super cool, to say the least.

This Nov. my unit is going on another live fire Ex in Pet... so it should be really cool. We also plan on going to do another live fire ex (both with the Guns) in March.. and probably another near the end of the year.. sort of a Prep. Stalward Guardian if you may.

If i forgot to mention, this is a Reserve unit, not reg force. so as you can see.. we do get our fare share of experience with both Live, and blank (and on occasion simmunition)... but as people on here have said.. most of our exercises throughout the training year consist of "build-up" training to a well-planned Live Fire ex. (during these build-ups, militia rounds are used  )

Anyways.. ive lost track of what the original question was so.. sorry for repeating what people have already said. My 0.02 $

-River

 

[portcullisguy]

I am infantry, and I have been in about two-and-a-half years, and didn't do any "live fire" training (other than ranges) until I participated in pre-deployment training, when I did live fire pairs and live fire section attacks.

The exception is the annual concentration exercise in the summer, where I participated in live fire defensives each of the last year (one hasty, one deliberate).

My unit sent a platoon to Florida in June, and we were lucky enough to do live fire FIBUA there (they call it "MOUT" - Military Operations in Urban Terrain), at the section level.

Mostly, I have done blank training, or dry-fire training.  Or, sometimes, we bring the rifles out just to make it look like we're in the army (or, at least, it feels like it sometimes).

I was told that live fire section attacks were a requirement for deployment, but annual "MLOC" (Minimum Level of Competency, I believe) is just a doing your level 3 personal weapons test.

I gotta say that live fire pairs and section attacks were pretty fun, but I was shocked to see that in the single/pairs jungle lanes, we did no dry runs or blank runs.  We went straight in to live.  For the section attacks we did one day of hammering out section SOP's and doing it dry, and then one day of live.  The safety aspect is very controlled, as it should be, and you have to be awake and alert for it, otherwise the A/RSO behind you with the mil stick will give you a good whack (I'm pretty sure that's not what it's for, but what do I know).

In the regs, I'm pretty sure it's different (as are lots of things).  Talking to some holding platoon guys in Meaford recently, they told me that they had already done live fire pairs and section attacks on their SQ, or sometime during their BIQ, I can't remember which.

I hope this gives some information on how often live fire training is done in the reserves, particularly for infantry units in Ontario.

 

[Gunnerlove]

Now on to my trade. I use the C3 105mm howitzer. each round costs, lets say, about 600$ CDN (standard HE round). On my LAST live fire ex, we (the battery) was authorized to fire over 1200 rounds!! 1200 rounds between 6 guns!!.... super cool, to say the least.

Western alienation at its best. Why is it we are lucky if 120 rounds of HE makes it over the rockies and into our ammo bussels for an EX? Yet you get 10 times that much. Oh right because DND no longer maintains an impact area in BC, or a regular force army unit for that matter. 

Feel the love, because I don't.  :'(

 

[RCA]

Don't feel alone, the prairies are the same.

I guess they need the practice more ( Note- start of flame war)

As a Gunner, Live Fire Exs by us are almost exclusively live ammunition. A side benefit of the trade.

 

[pbi]

This can work both ways, let me tell you......

When I was A/G3 of LFCA(1998-2000), 1 CMBG planned a very large FTX in which it set out, with malice aforethought, to get its hands on every single round and piece of kit it could, across the entire Army. This was at a time that the CLS had restricted the RegF to "no FTX above MLOC IV". Comd LFCA (BGen Holmes) cornered me one day in the HQ and demanded to know why we (LFCA) were shipping our MGB (Medium Girder Bridge) set to LFWA for 1 CMBG, when LFWA already had one, and how did all of THAT fit into the CLS' direction, eh, A/G3?...... On top of that they tore the *ss out of the Army ammo allocation, much to the anger of Comd 2 CMBG who blamed us wanks in LFCA for letting LFWA steal everything.

What goes around, comes around. Cheers.

 

[HammertownArmyGuy]

Just some info, back from several replies ago on simunition:

Simunition is inherantly inaccurate at ranges exceeding 30m or so.   Some units use it much more frequently than others.   It is typically used for OBUA/FIBUA (house clearing) as opposed to attacks in open and closed country, again due to its inaccuracy.   Last year the Argylls in Hamilton used it 4-5 times per month training for urban operations with a modular urban operations site within the armouries.   This site has now been copied and built for a number of regular and reserve force units.

 

[Lost_Warrior]

So far this year, my unit has done 2 life fire exercises.  1 during MilCon and one on the range during NIAC.

 

[Kendrick]

Well I feel like adding my 2 cents also on a few points that were brought up on this topic.
To start with, I'm not going to go into what regiments and units should, or are supposed to be doing.   My situation, I've been a pretty active element with my regiment for 5 years now, infantry reserve regiment, in Mtl., so 34bde.   This here is how it happens in this brigade, so I don't know about others.   Furthermore, this brigade is in major restructuration, so each regiment has to fork platoons over to other regiments to achieve "proper" training and be able to provide a sufficient turn out on each exercise (coy level).  

Anyways more on topic, when it comes to live fire, we're expected to go through NIAC quals every year, which means live ranges testing with the famous run down.   However since a few years now, there has been NO range practice at all beforehand.   Again I don't know how it is with other brigades, but its been like that here for a while.   The only other range to be expected is for support weapons, again, once in the course of that NIAC training.   -However- one of our platoons this year did get a "live fire" ex, but it was no way near some kind of section attack.   They called it the "jungle range" or something.   I don't want to elaborate on this because I wasn't there with that platoon, so someone else might be able to be more informative on this subject.   So, I'm an infantryman, a reserve rifleman and i get no range practice, at all.   Being in restructuration and all, I am hoping that this situation will soon be corrected.  

About live fire in Milcons, I'm intrigued.   What level were they?   Milcons here are for the whole brigade, so there's tons of people involved, many regiments, so the chaos in organizing live fire runs is far too dangerous.   Unless it is like a stand thing where you see a section go through at a time.   Never live fire in Milcons here.

On the topic of other types of ammo, in the reserves we have started using simmunition since last year.   they're basically 9mm rounds with reduced charges.   Yes they hurt, maybe a bit more than paintball, but its not that bad.   Though we had a guy that had a round go through his combat shirt clean!   Nice round hole.   Practically, I must say I do not like using simrounds.   Loading the small things in the special plastic magazines, which jam all the time, having to switch barrels everytime to fit a specially bored C7 barrel, upper part and buffer makes it annoying, and especially the protective equipment.   That headgear is just horrible and gets fogged up within a minute, I won't even mention when you're running around FIBUA sites...   and also, it is pretty inaccurate, forget about snipers, and I don't even want to imagine the nightmare of using that in a C9.   However these might just be because its recent equipment, so we might see improvement soon.  

We do get MILES gear once in a while, however it is very hard to have this on exercise.   I personnally like the MILES gear a lot, and I wish we could get it more often.   Again, once in a while.   Just make sure you don't miss -that- exercise!

As for blank rounds well, we get those every single exercise, so its not so bad for that.  

Our regiment is also equipped with a small SATs system, which can accomodate 4 shooters on all types of weapons at a time.  It does provide good practice on operating such weapons, and with intense calibration, I assume it could provide adequate accuracy practice, but it is just not the case for now, and I don't think anyone has even used the room this year.  I've been pushing to get qualified to run the thing, since there's only about 2 persons in the whole regiment qualified, but so far it's a no go.  But what it basically is, you get your 4 guys in front of a wall screen, with weapons (which are gas operated and loaded with sensors btw, so no rounds involved) and theres a scenario happening on it, so you can simulate 4 people attacks or other scenarios.  It has potential, but it needs to be used more, and better. 

So see, this is what I've been actually seeing in my time in the reserves, and I figure there's nothing better than actual info from someone who's there, or in it.   Yet again, this is just what I've seen here, so it might be different in other brigades.