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Legal expert sees trouble in Canadian war role

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Legal expert sees trouble in Canadian war role
By ALAN FREEMAN
Tuesday, January 15, 2002 – Page A1
Globe & Mail

LONDON -- Canadian soldiers who are being sent to Afghanistan to fight under U.S. command could find themselves in violation of the 1949 Geneva Convention if they hand over suspected members of al-Qaeda to the U.S. authorities, says a Canadian expert on international law.

Michael Byers, who teaches international law at Duke University, said yesterday that Canadian troops could be placed in a conflict of interest because of Washington‘s decision to ignore the convention covering prisoners of war and treat al-Qaeda and Taliban suspects captured in Afghanistan not as PoWs but as "unlawful combatants."

"Canada‘s obligations under the Geneva Convention exist regardless of what the U.S. does," Prof. Byers said in an interview.

That means a Canadian soldier may find himself torn between obligations to his own government and to his U.S. military commander.

"I would not want to be that Canadian soldier, and I don‘t think it is right for the Canadian government to put our soldiers in that position," he said.

In Ottawa yesterday, a spokesman for the Department of National Defence could not say what Canadian troops would do if they take prisoners.

So far, 50 captured Taliban and al-Qaeda suspects have been chained, manacled, hooded and sometimes sedated before being flown for 27 hours to the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. They will be held in cages built of chain-link fencing on concrete pads with metal roofs; the cages measure 1.8 by 2.4 metres and are partly exposed to the elements.

Nearly 400 other detainees being held by U.S. forces in Afghanistan or on U.S. warships in the Arabian Sea are expected to follow and the prison is being expanded to hold 2,000. Many will face military tribunals.

Prof. Byers, who is on sabbatical at Oxford University, said U.S. Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld is violating the Geneva Convention in deciding that the captives are not PoWs, rather than leaving that decision to an independent tribunal.

"Anyone detained in the course of an armed conflict is presumed to be a PoW until a competent court or tribunal determines otherwise," Prof. Byers said.

The International Red Cross, which is seeking access to the prisoners, said yesterday that however they are described, they are covered by the convention, which prohibits "cruel, degrading and inhumane" treatment.

...

Prof. Byers is also concerned about the decision to send the prisoners to Guantanamo.

Washington considers it foreign territory, which means the prisoners have no rights under the U.S. Constitution, much less those guaranteed under the international convention.

Prof. Byers can‘t understand why the Americans are not treating the captives better.

"It wouldn‘t cost them anything to treat them as PoWs," he said, adding that "we would not want our soldiers to be held in those cages."

Putting hoods on the men violates the 1984 international convention against torture and forcible sedation is against international law, Prof. Byers said.

As for shaving the beards of Islamic fundamentalists, he believes "it can only be designed to humiliate them."

Human-rights groups including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are also sharply critical of the U.S. treatment of the captives.

"Prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention are supposed to be housed in accommodations that are similar to those that regular troops are kept under," said Jim Ross, senior legal adviser for Human Rights Watch. "If U.S. troops were being held in a different country, under similar kind of conditions, I think the U.S. government would complain about it."

...
 
With the circumstances, I would not really concern myself with the Geneva Convention. They were the ones who flew planes into our buildings, so we are playing by their rules.
Personally, I see the Conventions as the West‘s attempt to legitimize war, kinda tell ourselves its alright. But it is bad either way, and someone has to do it. If it came between soldiers lives and some set of "rules" to war, the choice would be obvious. Remember, in the field, as the enemy is attacking, that we are probably the only ones who adhere to them.
 
I can only hope that Infanteer‘s message is meant as sarcasm, along the lines of "kill them all and let God sort it out".

If not, it represents what I would consider a most unprofessional ethic -- the sort that led to the AB debacle in Somolia and to the massacre at My Lai.

Review the article and consider the point about a soldier‘s obligations. Recall that you are obliged to follow all legal orders - and that you are obliged to refuse all patently illegal orders. "Just following orders" is a defence only if those orders can reasonably be considered legal.

Blatant disregard for the Geneva Convention isn‘t exactly the way to establish reasonableness under the law. And lawlessness in the affairs of nations is hardly a progressive move for civilization.
 
Would they treat american prisoners better or worse than what the tali‘s and alkayda have recieved thus far?
You think the bodies of Randy Shughart and Gary Gordon were treated humanely?
Have they signed the geneva convention?

I dont know but I think it could be a lot worse than what is happening so far.
 
Just because they do horrible stuff, does that mean we can?

Questions, questions, questions... of what makes us better than them.
 
Our manual on operational law can be found here:

http://www.dnd.ca/jag/operational_pubs_e.html#top

Bottom line: The 1949 Geneva Conventions (GC) I to IV (but not the 1977 Additional Protocols - AP I and II) are among the agreements which have gained the status of customary international law. That means they are considered to apply to everyone now, not just those who ratified them. The GC, and most other agreements, require one to abide by them even when fighting a foe who does not. We do not throw away the rule book just because the other side fights dirty.

A definition of customary international law can be found in the glossary, which is in Part 1 of the manual. Transcripts of various source documents of international law (including GC I-IV) are in the annex. Bear in mind some of the texts are translated.

Who is considered a combatant and therefore entitled to treatment as a PW? Evidently there is some disagreement, but my impression of the direction the agreements have taken over the years is to give the benefit of doubt and widen recognition of combatant status (and therefore protection as PW). Regardless, there are other internationally recognized standards for humane treatment of detainees.
 
I‘ll take this down as it is not really relevant to the thread discussion. See below for reply.
Infanteer
 
Infanteer.
Ok, great you‘ve thought about war. Congrats. You, nor I, have ever been in war, combat, or even anything more hostile than a bar fight.

The Geneva Convention outlines certain actions that should be followed in combat - I would hardly consider them limiting, or restricting. Leaving the POW his gas mask and helmet doesn‘t hurt anyone.

The entire point of every war this century is that we are morally superior to the enemy. Certainly this conflict is based, entirely, on the premise that civilization is better. A part of this civilization, which we are fighting for, is the Geneva Convention - and other things like hippies, Noam Chomsky, freedom of the press, and the right to get stinking rich.

These men are no real threat. Their war is over. They are controlled, they are essentially harmless. What possible reason is there to engage in barbaric treatment of them? Some sort of barbaric revenge? Half those guys have never been anywhere close to North America. They may be the enemy. They may be evil. But WE are still civilized.

Besides, we‘ve broken the Geneva Convention all sorts of times, so don‘t get high and mighty.
 
Infanteer;
I have to agree with Enfield. You are talking about two different things. No one is questioning what happens in the heat of battle when it‘s kill or be killed etc.
The issue here, is what happens AFTER the battle is over. One of the reasons we follow the Geneva Convention is because we are supposed to be better, morally, than the enemy. Another is so we don‘t give the enemy reason to do the same or worse to our guys.
Did these guys start it? Yes
Do they follow the "rules"? No
Do we stoop to their level? I hope not.
The Americans are not executing prisoners. The prisoners are being taken out of harms way, they are being fed and clothed, they are receiving medical attention, and they are going to be visited by the Red Cross.
 
Ok, I guess I went on a bit of a tirade there. And This is only my opinon on what is definantly a touchy subject. It does not really go with the context of the orginal arguement.
My problem with the article in question is that a law professor argueing through some legal approach that we were in the wrong and should feel bad about tieing some Taliban fighters hands behind his back.
 
Are they really being treated that bad? Are their lives in danger because of the way they are being treated? Purhaps from their pov they are being treated ok considering their living conditions back home. What about the chaos that happened in the small uprising? Purhaps they dont want that to happen again. None of us know just how crazy these prisoners are. And lord knows I dont think Nic Cage would help us out again if another Con air were to happen.

Enfield has already said our lines are being drawn and maybe if we follow the US lead on this issue it is going to make that line even thicker.
 
Well, I don‘t think we want to get caught in another Koje-do incident during the Korean War again...
Or is that not relevant to the discussion here?

In any case, BBC reports some mildly interesting facts that we should be concerned about...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1762000/1762529.stm
 
It‘s been a long time since I‘ve actually posted here but I can‘t let this one pass without comment.

Frankly I am shocked and disturbed by some of the comments and attitudes being expressed. It does not matter whether or not "they" are signatories to the GC‘s or even if they abide by them in whole or in part. The important part is that Canada has signed them and, as such, they are Canadian Law as well as International Law. Saying things like "they flew the planes into our buildings so we‘re playing by their rules" does not make disregarding these vital pieces of law right, moral nor even justifiable. How the other side chooses to fight and act does not, and can not, influence what we do in response.

In their treatment of these "detainees" the US is in the process of setting several very unsettling precedents and I am not sure we want to be involved in where they are heading lest we find our soldiers and citizens being treated in a similar manner in the future.
 
Infanteer -

When commenting about "some law professor", consider that he is a well-recognised expert in his field: PhD at one of the top law schools in the world, teaches at one of the best U.S. law schools, studied and published extensively in the area of international law over the past 12+ years.

Consider as well that our military actions are taken to achieve political goals. Political goals are actions of governments -- and governments are subject to the rule of law. Politics and law are entwined, so it should be expected that it would be "some law professor" who will be commenting.

He is not commenting on strategy or tactics, which you might say can‘t be learned until you‘ve been there - although I think many people with degrees in military science would disagree (implementation being a separate issue). He is commenting on law. I think his opinion counts -- it may not be correct, as only the courts will determine that, but it does raise some valid issues.

In short - we don‘t want the pols to tell us how to do our job, but we have to respect the parameters they give us to do our jobs within. One of those parameters is the law. In the short term, we‘re stuck with it as it is. If a law is wrong, we can change it. I have a feeling this one isn‘t going away.
 
Well, I invite Mr. Law Professor to go down to Khandahar and tell the the Marines and soon-to-arrive Patricias there what he feels is a serious violation of international law.
As for this arguement, I am going to withdraw as I can see I am taking some serious incoming rounds fighting for a losing side.
Infanteer Out......
 
Notwithstanding the fact I think some of those concerned with rights tend to grind the axe a little harder when the US is involved, I am interested to hear the US rationale for not treating the prisoners as PW. I believe that in applicable law, "combatant", "non-combatant", and "unlawful combatant" are three distinct categories. There is an article (1907 Hague Conventions) which states that "combatants" and "non-combatants" have a right to be treated as PW. But an "unlawful combatant", I suppose, is neither. I am also curious to know where it states that a country can‘t decide on its own whether combatants are lawful or not.

As for Canadian soldiers facing a dilemma, I don‘t see it. If our gang is under opcom or opcon to a US formation, I would guess the US is the detaining power from the get-go, or Canada is an implied co-detaining power. Battalions don‘t normally maintain PW pens. Taken to a ludicrous extreme, if Taliban fighters surrendered to a Canadian on exchange with a US unit, would he be a war criminal for handing them over to US custody of the unit and its parent formation? I think not.

I suppose the prisoners spending winter out-of-doors in Cuba are at least as comfortable as our soldiers spending winter out-of-doors in the Afghan wilderness, so I‘m not sure the accommodations are an issue. I‘m also not sure wearing a bag on the head is any more inhumane than being forced to stay awake and sit on a wooden chair answering questions.
 
I as well have no problem with the way the PW - sorry, unlawful combatants - are being treated, detained, or transported. The US is completely correct to keep them under such tight control, there have been several incidence that prove these guys will keep fighting in custody. Separating and demoralizing them is a great way to start getting info. But they should be treated with basic human decency - no torture, food and medical care provided, etc.
The only issue I see is why the US isn‘t calling them PW - there must be a reason they chose this (no doubt lawyers, equally if not better qualified than the one in the article., worked hard to choose it). I don‘t know enough about Int‘l law to speculate why.

I don‘t see this as a problem for Canada. Any PW exchanges will take place at a low level, an dvery quickly - the PPCLI won‘t hold them, there is a central processing scheme for them. These guys aren‘t just PW‘s - common PW‘s are being released - but suspects and witnesses.
 
garb- you talk about how the US is in the process of setting several very unsettling precedents. I still do not know what those are.

I totally agree with what brad and enfield and infanteer are saying. They are prisoners not guests at the Hilton. Do you guys also think they are going to be getting paid as well while they are being detained? How about them opening up their own canteen? Cause I would definately want to buy a love-camel. The US isnt a bunch of animals, they arent going to kill the prisoners or let them die on their own. All they have been so far is been protective and that is for their own sake.

How the other side chooses to fight and act does not, and can not, influence what we do in response. I am not so sure I agree with that. Sometimes you just have adapt simply because of the way the other fighting or acting. I am assuming you do not agree with the men of Task Force Ranger and how they handled themselves in that dire situation. But if they didnt fight on their terms I am absolutely positive many more lives would have been lost.

I am also surprised noone has brought up Isreal yet. Because they are one of the "western" countries that fights dirty, and they kick *** at fighting wars.
 
Infanteer, Disturbance:
Just remember lads, after you, me, and Bloggins finish taking the trenches and the SGT calls for the re-org, the only things walking, creeping, crawling, or swearing should be another pendulating richard from our section, one who has a subdued maple leaf on his left shoulder and says "Eh" a lot. Then you don‘t give the law professors and peaceniks a chance to feel "western guilt" about the civilian-slaughtering *******s who were just busy trying to ventilate you and buddy... er, sorry, the "unlawfully detained dispossessed persons of a possible freedomfighter persuasion".
 
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