Leave Policy – Christmas / Holidays [Merged]

[Monsoon]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your experience with leave passes is going to be somewhat different than it is going to be for the lower-deckers.

It would have been more or less the same when I was a JR, but maybe things have changed.

 

[CountDC]

but on the other side I would have been surprised if it had been navy as when I was with the ship we made them have all the leave passes in by the beginning of Dec for the holidays.  Can't say for all but at least some of the other ships had the same policy.  Waiting until 30 minutes prior to leave start just doesn't work.  How did they even do that?  Leave is for the full day so that means they would have to give it to you at 2330 the prior day. 

They have done it for years and they have been wrong for years but they are not the only ones.  Sometimes it is not even a unit thing but something done at a lower level.  Sometimes it is a matter that no one has ever bucked the system not wanting to cause waves.  Funny thing is usually when these reach the CO level they are thankful for someone pointing out the error with a solution and wonder why no one has in the past (except with the navy ships which is a world on its own ;D).

 

[Pusser]

I refer you to the original post in this thread. Up until this recent post, i thought only the Navy would approve leave and then tell the guy he has duty watch in the middle of it and that it is his problem. Not the first instance of this i hear. I was, however, wrong.

Leave is leave.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your experience with leave passes is going to be somewhat different than it is going to be for the lower-deckers.

I've got almost 30 bad-leave-experience-free years to look back on, so I would have to believe that your experience is unique.  And I draw not only on my own experience, but that of my subordinates as well.  In fact, my experience has always been that we have gone to great lengths to ensure conflicts are sorted in advance and everyone gets a chance to take their leave without worrying about duty watches.  The only time I have seen any problems is when a leave request comes in after the duty rotation has been published (which is usually well known weeks ahead of time, especially at Christmas).

 

[ModlrMike]

Perhaps an easier way to deal with this is to roll out the duty schedule bundled with the holiday leave instruction. Give troops the opportunity to mix and match as long as all duties are covered.

 

[armyvern]

You'd like to think so, wouldn't you?  But I've carried a duty phone while on leave.......

Too f'n funny; I carry a crackberry 365 days of the year and I'm not allowed to ignore it. Does that mean that I'm on duty all the time during my evenings, weekends, leave etc all year round? My own personal electronic leash. I'd love to be in a position that actually stood any "duty" anywhere ... that way I could officially ignore the crackberry and get some damn work done. :blotto:

 

[armyvern]

Shouldn't the QR&O state specifically that you cannot be both on duty and leave at the same time (this has been clarified but multiple JAG,s and presiding officers at summary trials)

Totally different situation here. Many of us are one-ofs and carry electronic leashes or duty phones either ALL the time (as I do) or lots of times when in very small and specialized work cells (PMeds, PAOs etc etc). This becomes more common the higher in rank one rises.

The carrying of those phones actually enables us to be away from the place of work and out of the geographical area (on leave, home to our family on weekends etc). If something occurs that I can not handle via crackberry, then I WOULD be re-imbursed my travel expenses etc that were incurred as a result of actually having to be recall back into my geographical work area from my home and family in Montreal on the weekend etc.

If I did not have that phone ... I'd be stuck in Kingston 365 and 24/7 as a one-of "on duty".

Quite like standing weapons vault duties in Gagetown when I was of much lower rank. Only two pers are authorized access and thus stood duty every second week year round. Could not leave the geographical area. At least with a crackberry, you could go shopping and not have to sit in your house awaiting the dreaded phonecalls to report in to the vault (issues, returns, power outtages, sounding alarm, alarm malfunctions etc) in to work --- that you just knew were coming. As far as I am aware, the vault pers (all two of them) still do not have a crackberry/duty phone) ... I pity them as that means they are at home, in their house, waiting for the call to come (they must respond within an hour of a notification).

Wow: wouldn't it be awesome to be them, On duty AND with a duty phone?? That way, the one guy wouldn't have to sit in his house for three weeks straight awaiting phone calls about the vault when his vault buddy was out of the area burning his summer annual (or Christmas annual) off for example.

Context is a great thing rather than blanket generalities when it comes to "duties".

 

[SupersonicMax]

If I did not have that phone ... I'd be stuck in Kingston 365 and 24/7 as a one-of "on duty".

It makes me wonder how things were happening 10 years ago....  Cell phones did not always exist. 

I am someone that believes that people that are bound by the Blackberry are doing it to themselves, so to speak.

 

[PMedMoe]

The carrying of those phones actually enables us to be away from the place of work and out of the geographical area (on leave, home to our family on weekends etc).

Vern, difference is, I was not allowed out of the area while I had the duty phone.  But was considered "on leave" at the same time.  :

 

[George Wallace]

It makes me wonder how things were happening 10 years ago....  Cell phones did not always exist. 

I am someone that believes that people that are bound by the Blackberry are doing it to themselves, so to speak.

Max


You have a faulty memory.  Ten (10) years ago, 2002, we did have cell phones in fairly large numbers.  In fact, while at 1 Can Div HQ, I carried a cell phone in 1989.  Granted, it looked almost as large as a "Walkie Talkie" out of a WW II movie, but it was still a mobile phone. 

I do not know what all the fuss is in this topic.  For the most part Duty for Christmas Lve, Summer Lve Blocks, etc. was all known well in advance and volunteers were requested.  When not enough numbers of volunteers became a concern, then those who remained in the Unit "Area" would be tasked, and provided a waiver form that reimbursed them that day of Lve.  If that was still not enough to rectify the need for Duty personnel, then Lve would be revoked for some.  Remember, one of the conditions that one has with the LVE PASS is the it can be CANCELLED at any time.  Having it physically in your hand, does not give you 100% guarantee that you can and will go on Lve.

 

[aesop081]

It makes me wonder how things were happening 10 years ago....  Cell phones did not always exist. 

Up until a few years ago, my squadron still had pagers for the duty crew. I'm sure pagers have been around for more than 10 years.

Remember, one of the conditions that one has with the LVE PASS is the it can be CANCELLED at any time.  Having it physically in your hand, does not give you 100% guarantee that you can and will go on Lve.

Go read the original post on page to see the stupidity some units do.

3 They made us write ‘Member responsible for duty watch’ on our leave passes, is this allowed?

 

[SupersonicMax]

CDN Aviator,

Believe me, I know what "being on duty" is.  I am carrying a pager as we speak...  And I am taking a day off for being in the QRA over a Sunday.

What I am talking about is Blackberry and smart phones.  10 years ago their use was not widespread as it is now and the CF were not using them.  They should be  used in case of emergency or operational necessity only, after working hours (whatever that may be for that day).  I can't see ANY position in the CF needing to be reachable 24/7/365(6).  That's why there are people on duty, acting position.  Delegation of responsibility and decisional power is something that, with the years, the CF became adverse to.

 

[captloadie]

Try telling a CO who has lost a unit member in an accident, or other circumstances that he doesn't need to be notified immediately, regardless of what time it is or where he is.

 

[George Wallace]

Just a side track, or perhaps not:

Max

It sounds a bit like you are advocating that "all" Duty pers be given pagers or cell phones and allowed to physically be somewhere other than within Unit Lines.

How many Secure Areas, alarmed or not, are there in your unit?  No need to answer, just think about it.  Someone with a 'crackberry' on Lve halfway across the country will not be able to reasonably respond to a call should their physical presence be required.  From past experience, I have received numerous calls, while not on "DUTY" to come in and reset alarms with the MPs due to them being set off by humidity or rodents or some other malfunction.  What about Wpns Vaults during a prolonged power outage?  Who are going to be the first to react to secure those facilities?  This is the military.  We do have some very serious responsibility in what we are safeguarding.  We do not have Bns of MPs to do it all.

CDN Aviator and many others can attest to the fact that Duties today involve far less people than they did twenty or thirty years ago, and even then much less than fifty years ago.  Those pers all had to be physically on location at the place of Duty.  Whining about doing Duty, no matter what time of year it may be, is just that; whining. 

 

[Ostrozac]

Try telling a CO who has lost a unit member in an accident, or other circumstances that he doesn't need to be notified immediately, regardless of what time it is or where he is.

Commanding Officers still go scuba diving, fly commercially, go on cruises, and canoe in Algonquin Park, all places where there is no cell phone coverage. The Duty Officer, or DCO, or Ops O can find him in a reasonable period of time, but not necessarily immediately. The previous post about delegation and actually havng people go on leave -- meaning disappear from work for a while -- I think is a valid point.

 

[ModlrMike]

I do not know what all the fuss is in this topic.  For the most part Duty for Christmas Lve, Summer Lve Blocks, etc. was all known well in advance and volunteers were requested.  When not enough numbers of volunteers became a concern, then those who remained in the Unit "Area" would be tasked, and provided a waiver form that reimbursed them that day of Lve.  If that was still not enough to rectify the need for Duty personnel, then Lve would be revoked for some.  Remember, one of the conditions that one has with the LVE PASS is the it can be CANCELLED at any time.  Having it physically in your hand, does not give you 100% guarantee that you can and will go on Lve.

If that were the issue then I'd agree with you. It seems, however that the leave passes are approved, and then the duty list promulgated. That's putting the cart before the horse in my book. I think for block/summer/Christmas leave the duty schedule should be rolled out before the leave instruction. That way the troops can sort themselves out before there's all this angst over cancelled/amended leave passes.

 

[George Wallace]

If that were the issue then I'd agree with you. It seems, however that the leave passes are approved, and then the duty list promulgated. That's putting the cart before the horse in my book. I think for block/summer/Christmas leave the duty schedule should be rolled out before the leave instruction. That way the troops can sort themselves out before there's all this angst over cancelled/amended leave passes.

Then this REFLECTS POORLY on your Chain of Command.  Nothing else.  If they are the problem, then it is them, not the System.

 

[aesop081]

Then this REFLECTS POORLY on your Chain of Command.  Nothing else.  If they are the problem, then it is them, not the System.

Welcome to the original post.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Max

It sounds a bit like you are advocating that "all" Duty pers be given pagers or cell phones and allowed to physically be somewhere other than within Unit Lines.

Not what I am advocating.  I stand alert more than once a week, and understand the reasons.  Some positions require some immediate/quick posturing.  Having said that, there should be a cadre of personnel able to fulfill those duties, so that it's not always the same person on duty, over and over. 

From past experience, I have received numerous calls, while not on "DUTY" to come in and reset alarms with the MPs due to them being set off by humidity or rodents or some other malfunction.  What about Wpns Vaults during a prolonged power outage?  Who are going to be the first to react to secure those facilities?  This is the military.  We do have some very serious responsibility in what we are safeguarding.  We do not have Bns of MPs to do it all.

As I said, you should not have been the only one able/allowed to carry out those functions.  Yes, carrying a pager after hours/on week ends is fine.  I do, couple of times a week.  I even call that a week end day for myself and don't count it as time on duty. Until I am recalled.

For your example, as far as I know, there are always a couple of MPs on duty at a base.  Why can't those guys react to secure the facilities?

 

[George Wallace]

Not what I am advocating.  I stand alert more than once a week, and understand the reasons.  Some positions require some immediate/quick posturing.  Having said that, there should be a cadre of personnel able to fulfill those duties, so that it's not always the same person on duty, over and over.

For the most part, that is exactly what the Duty Personnel, as listed in Routine Orders, are supposed to do.  If your unit does not have a person creating the Duty List who is evenly spreading out the duties amongst all the members of the unit, that is an internal problem of poor leadership.

As I said, you should not have been the only one able/allowed to carry out those functions.  Yes, carrying a pager after hours/on week ends is fine.  I do, couple of times a week.  I even call that a week end day for myself and don't count it as time on duty. Until I am recalled.

There are secondary duties and "Recall Lists" in the majority of CF Units.  Some of these Lists are forwarded, for example: to the MPs on a regular basis (weekly, monthly, semi-annual, etc.) depending on their 'importance' so that the MPs will have a list of whom to call in case of an incident.  In my case, I was on that list to be called in in the event of an alarm.  I was not the only one on that list, but apparently the only on they could reach or only one they felt was reliable enough to come in. 

For your example, as far as I know, there are always a couple of MPs on duty at a base.  Why can't those guys react to secure the facilities?

If you look into this further, you will find that it is only the MPs job to secure a site initially.  It is the Unit overall responsibility to secure it after that.  Are there enough MPs on duty, on recall and off duty, to secure every wpn vault and Secure or Highly Sensitive area on your Base, surrounding Reserve Units, etc. in case of a long term power outage?  I highly doubt it.  Refer back to my comment on what the MPs are responsible for and what the Unit responsibility is.  If necessary, a unit may have to recall people from Lve to secure CF locations, be it Christmas or not.

 

[SupersonicMax]

For the most part, that is exactly what the Duty Personnel, as listed in Routine Orders, are supposed to do.  If your unit does not have a person creating the Duty List who is evenly spreading out the duties amongst all the members of the unit, that is an internal problem of poor leadership.

I wasn't complaining.  This is standard for everybody.  1-2 times a week holding alert. 

There are secondary duties and "Recall Lists" in the majority of CF Units.  Some of these Lists are forwarded, for example: to the MPs on a regular basis (weekly, monthly, semi-annual, etc.) depending on their 'importance' so that the MPs will have a list of whom to call in case of an incident.  In my case, I was on that list to be called in in the event of an alarm.  I was not the only one on that list, but apparently the only on they could reach or only one they felt was reliable enough to come in. 

Not a single person in the CF is so important that he cannot go on leave for 2 weeks outside the geographical area.

Good leaders will have redundancy in their operations.  If you were the only one they could reach or only one they felt was reliable enough to come in, there are greater problems within your organization.  The burden of a duty should not be put on a single person's shoulders.

If you look into this further, you will find that it is only the MPs job to secure a site initially.  It is the Unit overall responsibility to secure it after that.  Are there enough MPs on duty, on recall and off duty, to secure every wpn vault and Secure or Highly Sensitive area on your Base, surrounding Reserve Units, etc. in case of a long term power outage?  I highly doubt it.  Refer back to my comment on what the MPs are responsible for and what the Unit responsibility is.  If necessary, a unit may have to recall people from Lve to secure CF locations, be it Christmas or not.

Statistically it will not happen very often, thus making it "an emergency".  In which case, the whole base or at least good part of it, would probably be recalled.  It doesn't mean that everybody should be on the edge all the time to be recalled, just in case there is an emergency.  Life must go on. Plans and daily operations need to be tailored around facts of life and entitlements (ie: leave). 

Yes, recalls from leave happen. Not regularly.  You cannot plan your daily operations on the assumption that WW3/Asteroid impacting the Earth will happen.