Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread

[TCBF]

... Member does not have relevant knowledge. Member is moved to a non deployable postion at a reduced pay if he so desires and cannot advance in rank.

- Cannot reduce pay.  Maintain, or spend the money DND saves in wages on court costs.

All Members above can choose Medical Release vice staying in CF

- Not all.  "Exigencies of the Service" will dictate who gets offerrd what - and where.  Don't need a barrack warden living in a Iron Lung in Yellowknife.

- This cannot be loosened up too much!  Pers serving in a Special Duty Area and Wounded in Action are the priority.  If we do not specify that, people living in wheelchairs will (again) inundate us with applications claiming that they can do the same job as the 'injured on basic training' soldier. 

- IOT sort this out, we must get RUTHLESS in our quest to weed out those who joined the CF with pre-existing mental and physical incapacities.But,

- Looming problem: recent research indicating possible familial/genetic pre-dispositions towards PTSD.  Keep an eye on THAT research!

 

[warrickdll]

In theory the CF is now expanding; which should leave plenty of positions (especially as instructors) with an actual CF “need” to be filled, which should allow for the CF to keep non-deployable personnel employed.

There should be no need for a special pay scale or an absolute denial of promotion. As an example: If there were a lot of WO positions open but not enough qualified deployable Sgts to fill them, then there would be no reason not to promote a qualified non-deployable Sgt to non-deployable WO (if the need exists).

There is no reason to look at how non-deployable status was achieved - qualifications to fill the CF "need" is all that matters.

As CF training and retention of deployable personnel meets demands then you start to buy out the non-deployable contracts (which were only ever there on a CF “need”).

Right now there seems to be a CF “need”; in a few years there may not be. CF “need” should be the determining factor; or else you’re just recreating a problem that was previously fixed: the problem of too many non-deployable personnel causing deployable personnel to be redeployed at a faster rate than what was anticipated?

 

[battleaxe]

Or how about this…

Let’s revisit the scenario that got me into so much trouble a while back (this time I promise to be polite and won’t scratch).

Link:http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51761.0.html

The object of the game here is for DND and the CF to save face, avoid controversy and make job security for military personnel comparable to that found in the Public Service and other government departments. 

So...transfer the contracts of wounded military personnel into DND civilian contracts.

Stop hiring fresh faced university students and civilians into DND- and begin to create a civilian force out of (mainly-nothing is absolute) former military personnel- a static non-deployable force that would exploit the skills and expertise and the incredibly expensive training and education that they all possess.

Currently, we (taxpayers) are paying thousands of people ? hundreds?; insurance adjusters, case managers, rehabilitation folks, vocational experts, employment experts, many, many, many lawyers, etc, to prepare our ex-military personnel for job hunting and employment.

It’s already been acknowledged that it is only a very small minority of those being released who will never work again and who actually require this extensive rehabilitation.  Most simply need jobs.

Most are already highly skilled and trained.  Those who aren’t and who require job training are currently being re-educated at government expense- only to take those skills to other companies and employers.

God…don’t get me started.

Employ those who we’ve already trained in DND- as civilians.  Those who don’t already have the skills to work in the government- train them so that they do- and then employ them. (We already pay to re-educate them so that other employers will hire them-why not do so and keep them?)

Currently, there are people- mostly the higher ranks and more educated ones-in the right place at the right time- who are released, get a fat VAC award, high medical pension…and then I (as a taxpayer) have to pay them a PS salary on top of that.

I don’t feel the need to do that, really.

I’d rather see these people have their contracts extended-transferred from military to civilian- and then see their benefits progress and mature naturally into one pension when they retire.

Also, the system won’t be based on luck then- or rank- or connections. 

Every contract is switched to a civilian contract- and employment will be found.  If the positions can’t be found- create them.  Create positions that enhance and improve military services. There will be money available to do that- because we will no longer be paying hundreds of people to do a job that is not really required. Put the money into paying released military personnel to do actual constructive jobs that improve military ops and services- not into paying civilian personnel to teach released military personnel to find jobs with other employers.

Anyway, as many of you would say, “rant off”.

I did my happy dance this week when I heard Canada’s Labour Minister actually say that no person who has worn a military uniform should ever have to go from the front line to the employment line. I was also astonished when I read about the turnabout in U of S policy.

Then they started waffling again, talking about conditions and exceptions, and I stopped dancing.  It has to be all or nothing- or the challenges will continue- we’ve been through this before.

Get them out of the military- maintain the U of S- transfer their CF contracts to DND contracts and make them civilians who will then work in support of military- if they wish to continue doing so.

Who better to work in support of military operations than those who have already been there?

Idealistic?  Definitely.  Will it ever happen?  No…or it will take one heck of a fight- because veterans are currently big business and many people earn wages based on the fact that veterans continue to lose theirs.

I’m not saying this type of move would be easy to do- I'm also not saying that my thoughts consitute the perfect solution. I can’t even imagine the union problems, legislation changes, negotiations something like this will entail.  I do think, however, that the government has to start looking at something like this if there is every to be harmony and fairness for our men and women in uniform.

To those of you who actually waded through this book I’ve just written, thanks for listening.

Should I duck?

Bren

 

[The Bread Guy]

Lots of good input here...

I note that New Zealand is brave enough to set up a wiki to allow people to, literally, rewrite their Police Act.  Could the same thing be done here?

How's this for an experiment:  With all the expertise (both theoretical AND first-hand) Army.ca folks can bring to the table, could "the collective" develop a policy on this one?

On a whim, I've set up a little wiki - http://servingwounded.pbwiki.com/ - to see if this can happen.  I've just put in the headings - if you're interested in contributing, PM me and I'll send you the PW.  The wiki system is dead easy to use/edit.  I've set up headings, and if you click on the headings, you get to a blank page ready to fill.  As people write, others can log in, edit, post comments, etc.

Then again, it could just be like the proverbial lead fart, but nothing ventured.  If it the postings get ridiculous, or obviously pointless or non productive, the wiki will disappear.

Anyone up for it?

 

[TCBF]

Bren,

Good ideas, but political suicide.  Bases are tolerated in ridings because of the civilian employment they create.  If bases began restricted hiring policies with veterans as a top priority the protest lines would be up in a minute.  Larry Lunchbox and Susie Sewingkit would get political for the first time in their lives.

Sure, you can open 'competitions' to vets, but how many of those competitions for civ positions are filled even before the poster goes up?  A done deal.

Some tried to make CFE hire spouses on a priority basis in Germany and even there it was a problem.

 

[battleaxe]

Sure, you can open 'competitions' to vets, but how many of those competitions for civ positions are filled even before the poster goes up?  A done deal.

We never hear about those competitions because the jobs are never posted.  If the transition to civilian was seamless- just a natural part of the release process- and personnel were put into jobs without a public posting and competition process (government employees need not apply for new positions in accommodation situations), Larrie and Suzie would never hear about the position and therefore wouldn't be able to gripe about not being able to apply for it.

No?

I get what you mean about the politics involved, though.

I am an admitted idealist and what I've written represents how things would be "if I were Queen of the world". Most people are quite indignant about the treatment of vets- right up until the moment they hear that the solution to the problem will affect their own lives.  You're right.

That's why I brought the union issue into the mix- people, especially people with union backing- will never let it happen.

So, how can our released personnel continue working and contributing- without stepping on the toes of civilian government workers and/or current deployable military personnel who need jobs to come home to in between tours?

It's impossible-someone's going to get their toes smushed.  If the system is not radically changed, our deployable personnel are going to, once again, find their downtime positions taken and the recruiting system clogged with non-deployable personnel. 

That didn't work...so what to do?

This time around, it has to be different.  We have tried accommodating personnel within the CF and the system got clogged up- promotions and recruiting were affected and downtime positions were taken away from deployable personnel.  It messed with the natural rotation of things.  This time, we have to go outside of the CF. There is no way to do that without conflict. Even if the injured are retained within the CF, and given a separate non-deployable status so that they don't get counted in CF staffing numbers, their mere presence will certainly begin to affect Public Service employment opportunities- and someone will complain.

I can't see a solution that pleases everyone, but I feel that military personnel have made enough concessions and paid a big enough price.  Let the public make a contribution to Canada's defence and reputation by acknowledging that, being at war, it is in our collective Canadian best interest to keep our experienced military personnel in the loop and in DND-in training, logistics, and advisory positions.

Let someone else step up and make the concessions this time.

Yeah, I know...I'm dreaming again.

It would be nice to see them pull out the 'we are at war' and 'national security' cards here, though. Don't these things override union demands and civilian workers' indignation? Isn't security a priority- and don't priorities come first? 

Dreamin'?

I'm off to check out the wiki thing that was mentioned above...

Bren

 

[simysmom99]

So here is where I see it, from someone who is living with a severely injured soldier. 
He is still working.  In fact, he is working more and away a lot more than he was before the injury.  His date for retirement is in 2009, which is his 10 year mark.  Does he want to continue?  I don't know.  I think he has earned the right to say "f*^& it" when retirement comes up and sit on his ass all day for the rest of his life.  This of course will  not happen because that is not the kind of person my dh is.
I completely understand the Universality of Service.  I see making sure that all of our deployable soldiers have jobs.  But what about making sure that those who have lost 2 legs (3 soldiers that I know of) and can't walk more than 1 km a day (which is like running a marathon, every day, day after day) have a position within the military that fulfills their need to be productive members of society.  We can't turn our backs on these soldiers either. 
I can't say 1 awful thing about how my dh has been treated by the military.  Sure, we have battles, but so does everyone else physically well or not.  We need to change our way of thinking and change policy.  The thing is is that we have to change an entire bureaucracy, which will take time and patience. 

 

[tomahawk6]

If a soldier can recover from his injuries,including loss of limbs and can pass the PT test should be allowed to stay on active duty.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=1747600&page=1

 

[Kiwi99]

I am all for keeping wounded soldiers employes in DND.  If they have the drive and motivation to serve, then we as an army deserve them.  There are plenty of desk jobs that they would excel at.  Now, prying the present holders of those desks from their current job is another matter.  But it can be easily solved by the career managers.  And if those pers don't like the prospect of going back to a line unit, oh well, too bad.  My only concern is if the wounded soldiers stay on their home units nominal role or not.  This could impede the advancement of other soldiers.  At the end of the day, wounded soldiers are still soldiers, and if they wanna fight, lets give them the chance.  Same pay prospects, same promotion chances. They earn it like everyone else.  And that is, I beleive, how they would want it.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with retaining personnel who have been injured, either in theatre or otherwise. The military needs fit capable people, not a bunch of wheelchair and cane commado's, especially at this time.

I was medically released and I must say that I'm glad I was, because having my career go down the tubes wasn't something I wanted to stick around to watch. Watching my peers advancing in rank, getting good postings and being able to do the "job" is something that played on me everyday and I was all to glad to leave, to make room for a healthy individual.

If this is implemented, these individuals will take up spots were otherwise healthy individuals could have been. Its a bad,bad idea and will have all kinds of negative implications further down the road.

The military is no place for physically challenged people and I'm speaking from first hand experience.  

Doing your thing for your country is admirable, getting injured while doing it sucks, but it's part of the job. Passing the flag to another to continue to the fight is hard, but we all have to be "realistic" and move on.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with retaining personnel who have been injured, either in theatre or otherwise. The military needs fit capable people, not a bunch of wheelchair and cane commado's, especially at this time.

I was medically released and I must say that I'm glad I was, because having my career go down the tubes wasn't something I wanted to stick around to watch. Watching my peers advancing in rank, getting good postings and being able to do the "job" is something that played on me everyday and I was all to glad to leave, to make room for a healthy individual.

If this is implemented, these individuals will take up spots were otherwise healthy individuals could have been. Its a bad,bad idea and will have all kinds of negative implications further down the road.

The military is no place for physically challenged people and I'm speaking from first hand experience. 

Doing your thing for your country is admirable, getting injured while doing it sucks, but it's part of the job. Passing the flag to another to continue to the fight is hard, but we all have to be "realistic" and move on.

So can I ask you one question,

You would not employ MCpl Paul Franklin to pass on his knowledge of Combat medicine, because he is a wheelchair bound, cane commando?

Interesting.

Please answer that one question.

dileas

tess

 

[battleaxe]

The conundrum is this...it's better to keep injured soldiers employed (both morally and from a human resources standpoint) but to do so causes no end of problems within the CF itself.

I recently wrote this in response to an e-mail I received from another medically released vet who, having managed to get into the PS, is still fighting to have his time in the CF counted towards seniority, vacation benefits, etc.  After years in the military- he started at the bottom again in the PS.  I'd say work needs to be done on the priority hire and transition into the PS (he's not the only one I know who has had this problem)- for those few who actually manage to do so.

"There needs to be a monumental shift in thinking. 

As a tax payer, I’m appalled at the experience, training, and money that the government tosses away each time a military member is released.  And, I feel that they are being released because it is easier to simply release them than to create new policies to employ them productively.  I also believe that changes in employment security for military members would jeopardize the employment of many other rehab, insurance, and VAC employees.

Veterans are big business- many people are employed in ‘rehabilitating’ people who require little or no rehabilitating. If we start giving employable (this is not about those who cannot work) released personnel jobs, who are they going to ‘rehabilitate’? What are they going to do?

Anyway, instead of making it seem like charity, turn it around. 

Currently, the system works like this: We hear, “OK soldier, you were hurt in battle and can’t run anymore.  We appreciate your time.  Here’s some money, and we’ll give you a little extra consideration (along with all the other special interest groups that have priority hire) if you want another job in the government. If you can’t find a government job, you’re on your own. Good luck.  Catch you later.”

I would like it to hear this, “OK soldier, you were hurt in battle and you can’t run anymore.  You may feel like you can’t be of any use to us anymore; but do you know what?  The Canadian taxpayers spent a lot of time, money, and effort training and educating you and you owe them-and you signed a contract that we are going to hold you to.  We are at war, we are under staffed, and we need your experience and expertise to train those who are willing to continue the fight that you started.  We are going to stop hiring fresh faced university students and civilians into the DND civilian division, and we are going to put you to work there.  Instead of creating a PS position for a civilian so that there will be somebody to help you find a job, we are simply going to find a job for you- a PS position that will enhance CF services for deployable military personnel and allow you, now a civilian, to constructively continue to support the CF. We are going to do this, because you have proven yourself a good and motivated worker, and we need you.  We appreciate what you did for us, soldier, but your work is not done.”

Treat people with dignity and acknowledge their worth and we will have fewer 'disgruntled' (I hate that word) veterans sounding off to the media.

Somebody above mentioned that we have to be realistic. 

Realistically, this is neither the same world nor the same job market/employment situation that existed twenty or thirty years ago. The "suck it up, you signed on the dotted line" argument is no longer valid. 

Recently, Canada's Labour Minister vowed to enact legislation that would protect reservists' employment-on a national level.

If this happens, the CF will find people investing time and effort in first finding and establishing stable permanent employment...and then joining the reserves to fulfill the need they have to fight for Canada. 

Then, if they are injured, or get sick, they will have a job to go back to- with an employer that will work with them and accommodate for their missing limbs and kidney stones. People will not invest in a career that will have them starting all over again years down the road if they happen to get arthritis or end up using a cane. And they will know the CF treats their wounded this way because, unlike twenty or thirty years ago, ex-military are speaking out at the unfairness- telling the world, on national television, how things are.

It's very noble to consider the military a calling, and to say that it's so much more than a job. It's very easy to get offended by being called a mere "employee"- until the paycheck stops.

I'm watching the MCpl Franklin situation with interest.  Here we have a man who has won the hearts and minds of nation, is motivated and has skills and experience that will help to save the lives of future soldiers.  Will they let him go?

Can they not create a position for this man?  Or will people be shouting-"You have to open that position up to a competition- because he's not in the military anymore?"

It's a shame...and so frustrating that I don't know what else to say right now.

Bren

 

[NCRCrow]

I think we should retain wounded members in such areas of recruiting or if applicable UTA to the reserves. Or even in Nat/Reg Intelligence Centers as they have valuable on the ground experience and can add a tactical spin to Command (Trinity/CFEWC/Athena etc)

These people are motivated, highly knowledgeable and demonstrates that the CF is a family and we do not discard our sick.

But I think it would have to be assessed on a case by case basis.

edit: Don't we accommodate people in postions anyway? (we do it in Navy)

 

[George Wallace]

I think we should retain wounded members in such areas of recruiting or if applicable UTA to the reserves. Or even in Nat/Reg Intelligence Centers as they have valuable on the ground experience and can add a tactical spin to Command (Trinity/CFEWC/Athena etc)

These people are motivated, highly knowledeable and demonstrates that the CF is a family and we do not discard our sick.

But I think it would have to be assessed on a case by case basis.

Not to shoot you down, but most of what you just posted is not workable.  The places you have mentioned are mandated to augment the Regular Force, and must meet the requirements of being deployable.  Reservists are making up very large percentages of Rotos.  Reserve units need deployable pers.  Any Int position is in high demand, and to fill them with non-deployable pers would soon make them non-effective.  This requirement to deploy in actuality applies to some civilians serving in some DND positions.

You have made a very valid point in closing, and that is that it is necessary that these are all assessed on a case by case basis. 

People should not confuse the CF with DND in this discussion, as they are two separate entities.  To keep a disabled Service Member in the CF is not the same as keeping them in DND. 

 

[TCBF]

- We may recall that the PS was jammed with WW2 vets, but so was every other place - WW2 created almost 1,000,000 Canadian veterans, plus most of the 600,000 WW1 vets were still alive and working in Aug 1945.

- As well, up into the eighties you could transfer your seniority and benefits to the PS. That was shot down. Lots of officers were retiring at 20 or 25 years and brought their seniority into the PS. Naturally, that prevented a lot of the lower PS from progressing. Since the vast majority of the retiring officers were male, it allegedly created the hated "glass ceiling" which prevented female PS members from advancing at/to the executive level.

- Ironic, in that parity with the CF and the PS was created in the sixties to allow direct transfer (some have bemoaned that event as the death rattle of military professionalism), then we get frozen out of direct transfers to the PS, yet we still have our pay and benefits package stapled to - and stifled by - that of the PS.

- If it comes to wounded vets in wheelchairs versus the Public Service Alliance of Canada, the smart money will bet on PSAC.

 

[NCRCrow]

The reserves I can agree with you on. Or what about the CIC?

But I will tell you my situation on the intelligence side. I was working at a unit in Ottawa where we hired civilians to augment regular force members as time was lost to courses/training etc. The civilians were ex-members of the CF because of the experience and knowledge base requirements. Close your eyes and imagine Cubicle land.

My question is why not let injured CF personnel with the right aptitude, experience & motivation to do these kind of jobs. Data base entry, technical reports etc. vice public servants.

 

[TCBF]

HFXCrow,

I think that -

The strength of the CF is arrived at through the process of the main estimates which form the basis of the federal budget.  This is one way the people - through their elected members - control the direction of government: through the application or denial of funding (in theory).

Thus, the CF cannot excede the strength (by rank and number) tabled in the main estimates (generally speaking).

For every non-deployable position we create, we lose a deployable one.  The first hint of this being a problem will be non-deployable people taking up "shore billets" formerly used as "a change is better than a rest" postings by deployable members.  Once we keep burning out the same people on deployments because the 'rest' postings are filled by non-deployable pers who cannot take their turns on tour, we start losing experienced and expensively trained soldiers to releases.

As well, the 'Succession Plans' of our regimental system dictate that certain positions must be accomplished as we hack and claw our way up the pyramid.  We have to leave those positions open to fit pers.

 

[geo]

Agreed.  Surely someone doesn't need to be in fighting trim to man a HQ desk, or many other, non-combat type positions.

Harris,  last thing people need to conclude is that all HQ positions are staffed by the Sick & lame.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

So can I ask you one question,

You would not employ MCpl Paul Franklin to pass on his knowledge of Combat medicine, because he is a wheelchair bound, cane commando?

Interesting.

Please answer that one question.

dileas

The answer is quite simple. I would have been one of those wheelchair commando's, since I'm in a wheelchair, I can attest to what I said in my original post as having first hand knowledge and I knew deep down that the military was no longer the place for me. Don't get me wrong it was hard leaving the only life I knew and I was angry, but I also realized that my military career was over. and that I would always be playing second fiddle to someone else. No advancement, static postings, medical reviews would have been only a few of the hurdles I would have had to face If I had been alowed to stay, not to mention holding up a spot for an able bodied person.
We must be realistic and realize that the military is unlike any other job, it depends on fit able bodied people to perform their duties and alowing injured disabled people to remain in the ranks will only lead to more serious implications down the road.
I stick with my conviction, that the military is no place for the disabled in uniform.

As to your question Tess about Mcpl Franklin, he could do the same thing as a civilian consultant employed by DND.

Me, I went back to school, recieved my computer science degree and now I work as an IT consultant for Kellogs Canada here in London Ontario.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[the 48th regulator]

The answer is quite simple. I would have been one of those wheelchair commando's, since I'm in a wheelchair, I can attest to what I said in my original post as having first hand knowledge and I knew deep down that the military was no longer the place for me. Don't get me wrong it was hard leaving the only life I knew and I was angry, but I also realized that my military career was over. and that I would always be playing second fiddle to someone else. No advancement, static postings, medical reviews would have been only a few of the hurdles I would have had to face If I had been alowed to stay, not to mention holding up a spot for an able bodied person.
We must be realistic and realize that the military is unlike any other job, it depends on fit able bodied people to perform their duties and alowing injured disabled people to remain in the ranks will only lead to more serious implications down the road.
I stick with my conviction, that the military is no place for the disabled in uniform.

As to your question Tess about Mcpl Franklin, he could do the same thing as a civilian consultant employed by DND.

Me, I went back to school, recieved my computer science degree and now I work as an IT consultant for Kellogs Canada here in London Ontario.

I hope that answers your question.

Too a Tee.

As opposed to your post last night, that conveys a better message.

That was all I asked for.

Cheers.


dileas

tess