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Just how much can we handle?

"Once we got to NDHQ to brief the staff, the knives came out. We ended up with basically two platoons, plus a few of the key people from Coy HQ who were embedded in other jobs in the camp. We were told that that the Army "could not afford" the additional platoon and coy personnel. As well, in an earlier briefing to the MND of the day, an arbitrary "cap" figure had been mentioned: the MND subsequently repeated it publicly. Of course, after that, nobody was going to go forward and say we needed more troops, even less than a company's worth."

- The cap is not our problem, how we balance our force is.  We seem to be more and more 'tail heavy' as the careerists all want a high paid gong-show behind the wire, with their moaning troops unable to do their jobs by day AND pull a sentry go at night (the old 4 Svc Bn would eat these wimps for breakfast).  Meanwhile, Cbt A are sleep deprived and beat to a pulp because they have to inherit the defensive tasks that the HESKObites should doctrinally be doing - but can't (or should I say: 'won't').

Tom
 
TCBF said:
- The cap is not our problem, how we balance our force is.  We seem to be more and more 'tail heavy' as the careerists all want a high paid gong-show behind the wire, with their moaning troops unable to do their jobs by day AND pull a sentry go at night (the old 4 Svc Bn would eat these wimps for breakfast).  Meanwhile, Cbt A are sleep deprived and beat to a pulp because they have to inherit the defensive tasks that the HESKObites should doctrinally be doing - but can't (or should I say: 'won't').

I can vouch for this one - having lived that particular experience.

There really is no feeling like returning from an 8 hr patrol, getting 2 hours of sleep, then forming a work party to assemble a kitchen tent, while on the way there, walking past a section plus of cooks playing volleyball and tanning.  >:(

My personal favorite was to be told by an air force CSM that we were to "shut up, my troops are sleeping" while trying to get a QRF coy ready to respond to an issue in the dark. It was all the better when she was awarded a bronze star for it.
 
"My personal favorite was to be told by an air force CSM that we were to "shut up, my troops are sleeping" while trying to get a QRF coy ready to respond to an issue in the dark. It was all the better when she was awarded a bronze star for it."

- Well, she did risk her life in confronting you...

;D
 
Something to remember is that MRP wasn't viewed as THE answer by the staff either.  It was the concept for how the army could best attain what the government was asking it to do, with the resources that it had.  It was realized that it probably wouldn't last past the first few rotations due to some key personnel shortages (particularly int, cbt engr, EME)- there are only about 1/9 the number of int ops required, and only 1/3 the number of engrs.  That doesn't even start to look at the equipment requirements.


Again, these shortfalls are not the fault of MRP.  All that MRP looked to do was minimize the impact of those shortages.  In a certain manner, it did its job very well- it made obvious the fact that the army couldn't keep up with what the government wanted it to do.  To put things in perspective, MRP was so badly stressed that in some cases, the army commander knew that Sgt Bloggins was sick and was going to have to pull out, because Sgt Bloggins didn't have a backup- that's how stressed MRP was even from the start.

Now, if you're looking at what it would take to actually support two constantly deployed battalion sized task forces, you're probably looking at needing to double the size of the current field force.  Incidentally, this would put us at a roughly similar ratio of force size to population as  Britain and the US (excluding Marines).  As you can imagine, this growth largely would need to be in the trades listed above, but would also likely end up with a lot more infantry, perhaps a little armour, and virtually no extra arty.

 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
You're obviously missing the point.  The politicians will often set artificial limits on manning that has a dramatic impact on how we generate organizations.  For instance, the PM will blurt out a number (say 1000) that bears no relationship to what the actual requirement is on the ground.  Then, after the recces go in, and the actual requirement is validated (typically with the force generators saying "I told you so"), there's a mad scramble to generate the additional forces.  The current ARCHER deployment is a perfect example:  artificially limited (in this case by the Managed Readiness Plan) to 1 light and 1 LAV company with a Coyote troop, it was far too light to conduct operations in Kandahar province and required an additional company at the last minute.

We're barely at the point now where we can barely generate effective companies without mixing and matching.  The problem isn't with the soldiers when dealing with mixed structures, the problem is with training and force generation.  Moving battalions may be of limited visibility to a Cpl/Pte on the line, but creates havoc with the force generation process, as Areas are forced to transfer sub-units out of their normal chain of command, retrain them (as they are - more than likely - from a lower readiness formation), and then integrate them into new units.  Add the fact that this can only really be done between the RCR and PPCLI (due to language difficulties) and you run out of options mighty fast.
...

The Army is already divided up in a, more or less, rational manner. Brigade Groups having Battalions with associated support (forming Battle Groups). These cohesive Battle Groups should be the basis for Task Force deployments, and when they're not - it strains the system. So I agree with much of the point being made.

Perhaps the Army could be restructured better but, given the available resources, the same problem would exist:
- There is no magic orbat that would accommodate every contingency, every transport limitation, or every feckless decision maker.

If we accept that the Army's basic formations in Canada are structured correctly (though too small) for mid/high intensity conflicts (Korea/WWII), it shouldn't mean that we can't accept dynamic force structures being formed to deploy overseas to the nearly endless no/low intensity conflicts.

More resources should be concentrated on keeping as many units as possible in higher states of readiness, and in being able to work together with short notice. I think this would be more cost effective than adding additional units.



Teddy Ruxpin said:
...
Again, this has nothing to do with professionalism at the soldier level.  We've taken a system that has worked for many, many years, shattered it, and replaced it with a pretty coloured Excel spreadsheet that has never, ever worked.
...

This Army is no more than a Division in size (okay, Div+) so no matter how things are cobbled together we're still operating with units of the same Division. But somehow we've managed to end up with no more across-the-board cohesion than we would with any random coalition partner - the system might have worked for many years but it has been detrimental in at least this aspect.

Given the limited size of the Army we shouldn't be falling apart from a lack of cohesion, or from differing training methods/standards. It should be a natural fit to have a Task Force comprised of sub-units from across Canada, Reg and Reserve, English and French. This can't be accomplished by wishful thinking, but I think it can be done.



Teddy Ruxpin said:
...
Finally, you can't compare the way the Navy and AF force generate with the way the Army does; it's totally different:  no one suggests taking the Engineering Division from HMCS Halifax and tranferring it to HMCS Vancouver and sending the new crew to the Gulf with zero notice, yet that's what the Army constantly does.

No analogy survives first contact. ;)
 
My personal opion is that the Brass and Government has tried to run the military like a business.. It's not,  The main purpose of a military is to defend the government intrests.  Not look good on paper or be cost efficient.  On my QL3's  we had a British Maj who had just spent a tour in NATO Command  that told us that the proper division of personal assets that has been used by the British Army is 2 support soldiers ( cooks, driver, supply, pay, HQ etc...) per 1 Combat arms Soilder(Inf, Armor, Arty, Cbt Eng)  If you have to many Cbt Arms  the system will colapse under the strain and people will starve and freeze, and everyone dies on the battle field.  If you have too many support troops you burn out your combat arms and everyone dies on the battle field.  And from the numbers I just crunched, were out to lunch, or my math is.  I could start on how i would fix it, but I would get flammed.
 
Daidalous said:
  I could start on how i would fix it, but I would get flammed.

Well then why dont you just speak your mind and present your idea.  If it makes any sense there will be a good discussion and if its stupid.....THEN you will get flamed.

See my point ?
 
Interesting I am reading Cobra II and it speaks to the lead up of the invasion of Iraq with only 50,000 troops as envisioned by Rumsfield!!

A good read for anyone involved at the army meets politician end.

Comment from things I picked up on the news regarding reservists. As stated by another poster, the army expects the reservist to drop into any vacant spot and adapt. While I am sure that most do that very well, there is concern about their loved ones (wives, kids) not getting the same support as spouses of regular soldiers who have access to the base facilities and other spouses from the unit. Also having these soldiers depart individually from the unit they served in reduces the effectiveness of peer to peer counselling for potential post traumatic stress syndrome, it would be better that they rotate in and out with the same unit. This will be more of an issue with this current deployment than some of the previous ones.   
 
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